Question regarding the second death

[Joshua-]

How much is revelaed in the writings of EGW about the events leading up to the second death?

 

I've found that, by and large, SDAs don't seem to know much about this specific area of her writings (for example that some people will burn for a long time, others will burn a shorter amount of time, in proportion to their sins).

 

Does anyone know of a particular set of studies or maybe a compilation that has narrowed in on this particular topic?

[Kevin H]

There are a number of studies on this. I wish I had more time to go into it right now, however I've written on this a number of times.

 

The fire itself is seeing Jesus in person, God in all of God's glory. Jesus is the one altogether lovely, the desire of all nations, the one beloved of women, the fairest among ten-thousand. The one sweeter than honey and more desirable than gold. It is God's glory and love.

 

We, all of us, have our deepest desire to want to be like and with Jesus. Fighting this is our sinful nature, a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. Although the deepest desire to want to be like and with Jesus is the most powerful, that does not mean that it is the one in power in our lives. We are constantly making choices as to which one of these will rule our lives.

 

For those who end up slaves of their sinful nature, when they see Jesus in all his beauty, they are overwhelmingly attracted to him, but they have developed a character of refusing to yield to the pleadings of the Holy Spirit. They want to come but won't. They are unforgiving people and cannot comprehend how God can forgive them. As they see the sinfulness of their life in contrast to the beauty and purity of Christ they are horrified and feel that God will have to get them for their sins and they pull back trying to hide from him. Yet they are still overwhelmingly attracted to him.

 

Hell is locked from the inside. They become prisoners of their mind. The horror of hell is the longing to just run and throw their arms around Jesus and be with him and other loved ones inside the city, but they have destroyed their will and are slaves to the fear to come to the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. They want to come but they won't. They come up with their excuses and blaming and complaining but their deepest desire is to be with Jesus and God's spirit cannot help but to draw. They eventually run out of excuses and have a compromise of every knee shall bow and every tongue confess but they refuse to go any further. The conflict between wanting to come and refusing to becomes so intense that it quite literally rips them apart.  

 

This takes longer for some than for others. That is why some burn longer than others do. Of course the ideal is to burn in this fire through out eternity!

[Joshua-]

Thank you for the post, I found it interesting.

 

Could you clarify this part for me: "Of course the ideal is to burn in this fire through out eternity!"-- is it a reference to Isaiah 33:14,15?

 

Mainly what I am trying to determine here is how long the process takes from the resurrection of wicked til complete destruction.

 

The earth is supposed to be destroyed violently at the 2nd advent so I can't imagine there being much left after the 1000 years of desolation. After the 1000 years, EGW says in GC 664 "Skillful artisans construct implements of war" to use once rallied under the side of the enemy to overthrow the city of God. That sounds like it could take some time.

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Joshua,

 

For a different take on the "Final Judgment - Lake of Fire", there's a study at my website. 

 

I do not believe that those judged at the Great White Throne final judgment are alive, or conscious.

They "stand" before God, only in  the sense of their records.

Their is not third resurrection. 

 

They died physically, either at the Second Coming (consumed by the glory of God)

or at Gog-Magog. Both of these would involve some degree of torment.  (The GWT Judgment follows Gog-Magog.)

 

The "second death" is a different TYPE of death.  It is God's memory of them (like a heavenly download from the mind) which will be destroyed in the special "lake of fire" so that these persons can never be resurrected again.  Only then will they be DEAD, to God. 

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Joshua-]

Thanks for the reply, Rachel. I think I heard a somewhat similar take before from a Pastor named Stephen Bohr. It has been a long long time ago though so I might be incorrect.

 

I'm not entirely sure how to reconcile it with my current understanding of the Bible and Adventism. I thought the events went something like this:

 

 

Upon the second advent of Christ, the righteous dead are resurrected and the righeous living are translated without dying. They leave with Christ.

 

Calamity befalls the planet, people everywhere are killed by a number of calamities that break loose once the righteous are no longer there (so, for example, huge rocks falling from the sky, earthquakes, etc etc).

 

1000 years of desolation (during this time, the books are opened for the redeemed, and every redeemed person with Christ is given a chance not only to 'see' why the guilty are not there with them, but also to themselves pass judgment and declare that Gods judgment was just by reviewing the records of their lives and seeing how God tried to work with them but they refused Him).

 

After the 1000 years, the 3rd advent of Christ at which all of the lost and condemned are resurrected (every human being that existed from the pre flood world to past our time) and are given an opportunity to see and understand that it was their own choices that forfeited the eternal life that Christ suffered and died to provide them with. It is at this point that there are no more 'secrets', everything is revealed, everyone sees the controversy from the beginning to the end, and it is this that causes them to confess that God is just in His dealings with mankind and that Lucifer is a murderer and a liar. Nevertheless, this doesn't convert them because their character and fate have been sealed by their own thoughts and actions and they rally behind Lucifer to take the city, at which point they are destroyed root and branch in the lake of fire (some say by "fire from God" as per Revelation 20:9, and yet others say that God Himself doesn't destroy them, but rather His brightness which is glorious to the redeemed is a devouring flame to the wicked.. which always seemed like a ridiculous argument to me because, either way, God destroys them. One way is sugar coated as a side effect of Him being so bright or whatever, and the other way is Him doing what He said He would do, passing judgment and bringing about the final and justified vengeance He instructed HIs followers not to do, because He would, by rendering the accounts and awarding appropriately).

 

 

What I am interested in is any information on this last point in time, after the 1000 years. How long does it take for all of this to take place? Does anyone know of any places where EGW goes into more depth with this? Maybe something from Spiritual Gifts or some obscure manuscripts?

[Robert]

I can give you a Bible answer that might differ with EGW.  Are you interested?

[Joshua-]

I can give you a Bible answer that might differ with EGW.  Are you interested?

 

I'm always interested =)

[Bert]

Thanks for the reply, Rachel. I think I heard a somewhat similar take before from a Pastor named Stephen Bohr. It has been a long long time ago though so I might be incorrect.

 

I'm not entirely sure how to reconcile it with my current understanding of the Bible and Adventism. I thought the events went something like this:

 

 

Upon the second advent of Christ, the righteous dead are resurrected and the righeous living are translated without dying. They leave with Christ. 

 

Response: 1 Thess. 4:15-17 provides the scenario of the first resurrection. The righteous dead since Adam and Eve are resurrected, and together with those righteous who will not see death, will be 'caught up into the air' to meet Jesus, and so will they be with Him during the 1000 year millennial period.

 

Calamity befalls the planet, people everywhere are killed by a number of calamities that break loose once the righteous are no longer there (so, for example, huge rocks falling from the sky, earthquakes, etc etc).

 

Response: Not entirely scriptural. Revelation 15 addresses the 'seven last plagues', and specifically in verse 8, mentions that 'no man was able to enter into the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled'. In Chapter 16, it provides an explanation of each plague and what it causes. These occur while the righteous are still on this earth, but they will not be affected by these plagues (just as the Israelites were protected in Egypt from the ten plagues), for the plagues only affect those who 'had the mark of the beast, and those who worshipped his image' (Rev. 16:2). Then in verses 16 and 17, we find that the seventh plague is imposed at the time of Armageddon, and Christ declares "It is done". At this time, the destruction you outline above occurs as given in verses 18-21. These occur at about the same time Jesus returns as confirmed in 2nd Peter 3:10-12. Matt. 24:43 and 44 refers to Christ's second coming as 'coming like a thief in the night', meaning it will occur unexpectedly.The wicked who are still alive at Christ's coming will be struck down by the 'brightness of His coming' (2nd Thess. 2:8). There will be no life on the earth other than Satan and his followers for 1000 years.

 

1000 years of desolation (during this time, the books are opened for the redeemed, and every redeemed person with Christ is given a chance not only to 'see' why the guilty are not there with them, but also to themselves pass judgment and declare that Gods judgment was just by reviewing the records of their lives and seeing how God tried to work with them but they refused Him).

 

After the 1000 years, the 3rd advent of Christ at which all of the lost and condemned are resurrected (every human being that existed from the pre flood world to past our time) and are given an opportunity to see and understand that it was their own choices that forfeited the eternal life that Christ suffered and died to provide them with. It is at this point that there are no more 'secrets', everything is revealed, everyone sees the controversy from the beginning to the end, and it is this that causes them to confess that God is just in His dealings with mankind and that Lucifer is a murderer and a liar. Nevertheless, this doesn't convert them because their character and fate have been sealed by their own thoughts and actions and they rally behind Lucifer to take the city, at which point they are destroyed root and branch in the lake of fire (some say by "fire from God" as per Revelation 20:9, and yet others say that God Himself doesn't destroy them, but rather His brightness which is glorious to the redeemed is a devouring flame to the wicked.. which always seemed like a ridiculous argument to me because, either way, God destroys them. One way is sugar coated as a side effect of Him being so bright or whatever, and the other way is Him doing what He said He would do, passing judgment and bringing about the final and justified vengeance He instructed HIs followers not to do, because He would, by rendering the accounts and awarding appropriately).

 

Response: Revelation 20:9 and 10 say that 'fire and brimstone from God out of heaven' is the consuming fire. The earth in its terrible state at that time, along with the wicked, will be consumed by the fire. We know that there is actual fire that will produces ashes, for Malachi 4 provides us this information.

 

What I am interested in is any information on this last point in time, after the 1000 years. How long does it take for all of this to take place? Does anyone know of any places where EGW goes into more depth with this? Maybe something from Spiritual Gifts or some obscure manuscripts?

 

Response: Revelation 20:3 says that the Devil will be 'loosed a little season' after the 1000 years. The length of time involved in 'a little season' is speculative, but one must appreciate that it will take some time to gather his group together that numbers 'as the sand of the sea' in Rev. 20:8 in order to conduct an attack on the New Jerusalem.

 

God bless, 

 

Discerner

[anto]

Funny you should ask that Joshua, it's a question that came up in our Sabbath School this morning.  

Our leader suggested that no one would be burnt to death at the 2nd coming, that all the references to God's consuming fire are alluding to God's love.

His case was based mainly on Isaiah 33:14-15   “Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?  Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?”15 Those who walk righteously and speak what is right"

 It was similar to what Kevin H says above - that the fire is a metaphor for the anguish the unrighteous feel at not being able to dwell in Jesus' glory, much as we all wish desperately to do.

 

But I just did a text-search on "consuming fire" and I think they might have that wrong.  See e.g. Lev 9:24, 10:2, Num 11:1, 16:35, Deu 4:24 and surrounding verses, 2Kings 1:10, 12, Isa 30:27, 30, etc.

They all speak of a very angry God, not a loving one.

Ezek 28:18 says So I made a firea come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashesb on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

Ashes?  Love?

 

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what other suggestions come in.  My heretical view would be (with apologies in advance to any who may be offended) that John The Revelator was expressing to the best of his ability the images he got from God in his vision, a highly symbolic representation of the things that must shortly come to pass, which one expects would be open to a fair bit of interpretation by the reader.

My guess would be, knowing the sort of God that God is, that the fate of the unrighteous will be a period of extreme discomfort that at the time might seem like an eternity but will probably be about as long as it takes to die from say pancreatic cancer or an ebola infection.  

And I don't discount the possibility of there being an extra measure of anguish for lifelong unbelievers when they discover they've wasted their life and their opportunity to be re-absorbed into the eternal mind that is the God of the Universe and dwell with her/him in an eternal afterlife.

 

The reference to two deaths could well be the first physical one, followed by God's choice to erase their program code from her mind and remove any opportunity for them to participate in some future existence.  Much like 8thdaypriest's suggestion above:

"It is God's memory of them (like a heavenly download from the mind) which will be destroyed in the special "lake of fire" so that these persons can never be resurrected again.  Only then will they be DEAD, to God." 

That has a ring to it.

[Kevin H]

Thank you for the post, I found it interesting.

 

Could you clarify this part for me: "Of course the ideal is to burn in this fire through out eternity!"-- is it a reference to Isaiah 33:14,15?

 

Mainly what I am trying to determine here is how long the process takes from the resurrection of wicked til complete destruction.

 

The earth is supposed to be destroyed violently at the 2nd advent so I can't imagine there being much left after the 1000 years of desolation. After the 1000 years, EGW says in GC 664 "Skillful artisans construct implements of war" to use once rallied under the side of the enemy to overthrow the city of God. That sounds like it could take some time.

Yes, I am referring to Isaiah 33. Not sure just how long, however Ezekiel 38 and 39 tells what WOULD have happened had Jesus been accepted and he applies the 2300 day prophecy to the last 2300 literal days of the 70 weeks of years. (actually 2310 days but remember the 10 days from the Fall new year to Yom Kippur). taking some time to study what Could have happened then may give a foundation to your question as to how it will happen.

[Robert]

I'm always interested =)

 

The 2nd death is where God abandons you to your deliberate and persistent rejection of salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ. This abandonment means you will never, ever have any hope of a resurrection.  The 2nd death is therefore goodbye to life forever!

[Robert]

The 2nd death is where God abandons you to your deliberate and persistent rejection of salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ. This abandonment means you will never, ever have any hope of a resurrection.  The 2nd death is therefore goodbye to life forever!

 Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (i.e., the truth as it is "in Christ" - the gospel), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

 

The willful sin here is not a sin against the law for the believer is not under law.  What then is this deliberate sin? The context will reveal it:

 

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 

 

Notice, this deliberate sin is trampling the Son of God underfoot by which the believer was set apart (sanctified)!

 

Heb 10:10 "By that will (by Christ's dong & dying) we have been (past tense) sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

 

So to persistently and ultimately reject Christ is to take upon yourself the curse...the 2nd death.

[Robert]

One of my favorite Ellen White quotes concerning God's abandonment of those who have persistently said no to the gospel is found in Christ's Object Lessons, 84:

 

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest" 

 

Can I find this concept in the Bible?  Yes!

 

 

Deut 31:17 And my wrath shall be kindled against them in that day: and I will forsake them, and will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured: all evils and afflictions shall find them, so that they shall say in that day: In truth it is because God is not with me, that these evils have found me

[Bert]

Burt Said,

"Matt. 24:43 and 44 refers to Christ's second coming as 'coming like a thief in the night', meaning it will occur unexpectedly.The wicked who are still alive at Christ's coming will be struck down by the 'brightness of His coming' (2nd Thess. 2:8). There will be no life on the earth other than Satan and his followers for 1000 years."

 

Burt, Christ's coming like a thief does not refer to his Second Coming for at that time every eye shall see Him come. "Coming as a thief" in Matt 24  refers to His coming to your record in the investigative judgment;

 

Response: The reference to Christ's coming 'as a thief' has nothing to do with the investigative judgment, for that will have been completed when Jesus declares in Revelation 16:15, "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." In reading the following verse, we find the gathering into a place called Armageddon, which precipitates the pouring out of the seventh angel's vial, and Christ declares "It is done". The reference in Matt. 24:43 and 44 parallels what Paul said to the Thessalonican church in 1 Thess: 5:1-7, which leaves no doubt that it is a reference to His second coming.

 

The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state--men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. Before the Flood, after Noah entered the ark, God shut him in and shut the ungodly out; but for seven days the people, knowing not that their doom was fixed, continued their careless, pleasure-loving life and mocked the warnings of impending judgment. "So," says the Saviour, "shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39. Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men. .  {GC 491.1}

 

Response: Sister White's statement in the last sentence above is a reference to 'being ready' at all times for Christ's unexpected return 'as a thief in the night'. Obviously we have no control at what time or place our life can end, and when it does, our future is sealed at that time...saved or unsaved.

 

Some other judgment hour verses of Matt 24:

Matt 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 

24:49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 

24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,  

 

Response: The verses in Matthew 24 cited above are part of a parable by Jesus in which He tells us to be ready for His coming at any time rather than live a worldly life waiting until a suitable time to repent and change his ways. Delaying your decision is never a good idea, and that is pointed out in verses 50 and 51. Hebrews 4 tells us in verse 7, "Again, He limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time; as it is said, TODAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS.' 

 

Jackson

 

God bless,

 

Bert 

[LifeHiscost]

Bert said:

"Matt. 24:43 and 44 refers to Christ's second coming as 'coming like a thief in the night', meaning it will occur unexpectedly.The wicked who are still alive at Christ's coming will be struck down by the 'brightness of His coming' (2nd Thess. 2:8). There will be no life on the earth other than Satan and his followers for 1000 years."

 

My response

Bert, Christ's coming like a thief does not refer to his Second Coming for at that time every eye shall see Him come. "Coming as a thief" in Matt 24  refers to His coming to your record in the investigative judgment;

  …27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.....Hebrews 9

 

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie....Revelation 22

 

Jesus bringing the rewards with Him at His second coming is indicative that judgment has already taken place for both the wicked and the righteous, for rewards or punishments are not meted out until judgment is finished.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

I read Mrs White's description of what she "saw" in her "visions" very carefully, but I take her interpretations with a grain of salt.  I ALWAYS take the Bible over anything she wrote.

 

She may have "seen" the wicked raised at the Second Coming, rather than 1000 years later.  She may have "seen" the trumpet judgments, and thought they were the 7 last plagues.

 

Anyway,

My view - expressed in many posts at this forum - is that the wicked (those who knew of God and rejected Him) will be raised along with every person who entered into Covenant with the LORD, at the Second Coming.  BOTH righteous and wicked are raised ON THAT DAY (Daniel 12:1-3).  Those who lived and died in ignorance ARE NOT JUDGED on that day.  Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would have no sin." 

 

Those judged wicked, will face Christ in His glory.  They will be "slain by the brightness of His coming" and their bodies will be consumed with the earth as it is "burned up" (Peter). 

 

I know that SDAs say that only those who physically crucified Christ will be raised in a "special resurrection", but Hebrews 6:6 says that those who "fall away" "crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to open shame".  So I believe that all of those who broke covenant without repentance, and those rejected Christ will be raised at the Second Coming to face judgment.

 

The earth will be totally devastated by the last plagues, and it will remain lifeless and uninhabited for 1000 years.  Jeremiah wrote that he "saw the earth" AFTER the great day of the LORD, and "it way without form and void".  Same Hebrew used for earth before anything was created on it. 

 

AFTER the 1000 years, the LORD will restore the earth.  The redeemed will "return to the land".  They will repair and rebuild.

"The rest of the dead" will live again, because their cup is NOT YET FULL. 

 

I know that Rev. says "let him that is filthy be filthy still", but I believe those words are addressed to the living.  The knowledge of the LORD will have penetrated to all the earth before the day of the Second Coming, because every LIVING person must choose whom he/she will serve, before that day. 

 

The rest of the dead will be all of those who died in ignorance, and were therefore NOT guilty of breach of covenant. 

They will be raised as physical beings.  (Satan will be "released" in the sense that he then will have people to deceive.)

They will then be taught by the "priests of God and of Christ" (everyone saved at the first resurrection - the redeemed).

They will then have to "choose whom they will serve".

Some will "go up to the House of the LORD" to "learn His ways".  (Isa. 2, Micah 4)

Some will rebel.

Those who rebel, will attempt to overthrow the rule of Christ and His priesthood.

These rebels will be consumed by the fire of God, as the LORD defends His city.

AFTER this - there will be a final great judgment, to review all of the evidence.

AFTER this - will come the final "lake of fire". 

AFTER this - the Holy City New Jerusalem will descend.

 

Concerning the priesthood:

1.  We will be priests (Rev. 20:6, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:9-10, Isa. 61:4-9).
 2.  We will reign/rule with Him - over the nations (Rev. 2:26).
 3.  Therefore we will reign with HIM - as “kings and priests” (Rev.1:6, 5:10, 3:21).
 4.  We will reign on the earth (Rev. 5:9-10).

 

Jeremiah Chapter 33:7-18  “And I will cause the captives of Judah and the captives of Israel to return, and will rebuild those places as at the first.”  They will be “a name of joy, a praise, and an honor before all nations of the earth, who shall hear all the good that I do to them; they shall fear and tremble.” A descendant of David will reign, and “execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.”  

 

    Isaiah 2:1-4 “And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains [above all kingdoms], and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:’ for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (ASV)

 

I've tried to summarize.

There are several studies at my website.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint
 

 

 

[Bert]

Bert said:

"Matt. 24:43 and 44 refers to Christ's second coming as 'coming like a thief in the night', meaning it will occur unexpectedly.The wicked who are still alive at Christ's coming will be struck down by the 'brightness of His coming' (2nd Thess. 2:8). There will be no life on the earth other than Satan and his followers for 1000 years."

 

Jackson responds: Bert, Christ's coming like a thief does not refer to his Second Coming for at that time every eye shall see Him come. "Coming as a thief" in Matt 24  refers to His coming to your record in the investigative judgment;

Bert said: The reference to Christ's coming 'as a thief' has nothing to do with the investigative judgment, for that will have been completed when Jesus declares in Revelation 16:15, "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." In reading the following verse, we find the gathering into a place called Armageddon, which precipitates the pouring out of the seventh angel's vial, and Christ declares "It is done". The reference in Matt. 24:43 and 44 parallels what Paul said to the Thessalonican church in 1 Thess: 5:1-7, which leaves no doubt that it is a reference to His second coming.

 

Jackson responds.The verses you used in Matt 24 do not refer to Christ's Second coming according to the SOP and  the literal reading of those verses. They refer to Jesus silently coming to our record as a thief, fixing our final destiny. Let us carefully reread the following quote from Great Controversy

 

The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state--men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. Before the Flood, after Noah entered the ark, God shut him in and shut the ungodly out; but for seven days the people, knowing not that their doom was fixed, continued their careless, pleasure-loving life and mocked the warnings of impending judgment. "So," says the Saviour, "shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:39. Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men. .  {GC 491.1}

 

The reference to the time of Noah in the above GC quote was not to highlight the condition of the people when the rains began , but rather the condition of the people outside the ark after the ark door was closed. It was sunny and dry for seven more days, but the people knew not that their probation had closed and they were eternally lost. Probation closed silently, secretly, just as it would in the last days when Jesus would come silently as a thief to the life records of the two in the field and the two in the bed. Again,  in the quote above  the SOP is emphasizing the fact that probation closed for the antediluvians when the ark door closed and they knew it not. That is what Jesus is stressing in his reference to the time of Noah, in the  verses of Matthew ,Chapter 24

 

Some other judgment hour verses of Matt 24 and SOP comments on their true import.:

 

Matt 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 

24:49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 

24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,    24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

,,, and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite [his] fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of." "What time is here referred to? Not to the revelation of Christ in the clouds of heaven to find a people asleep. No; but to His return from His ministration in the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, when He lays off His priestly attire and clothes Him self with garments of vengeance, and when the mandate goes forth: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (2T p190)

 

Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. Momentous are the interests involved therein. The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Revelation 3:3.  (GC 490)

 

 

 Christ's Second Advent  can be likened to an awards ceremony after a great lifelong race. At the Advent, the race is over and "His reward is with Him to give each man according to his work" But it is when the "ark door' secretly, as a thief, closes on our record, that our eternal destiny is fixed forever and the race is over' This is the warning of Rev 14:7.

 

The Adventist Church  was raised up to give the Three Angels' messages of Rev 14. It is a judgment hour message as warned about in Rev 14:7.

 

“ God's purpose in giving the third angel's message to the world is to prepare a people to stand true to Him during the investigative judgment. This is the purpose for which we establish and maintain our publishing houses, our schools, our sanitariums, hygienic restaurants, treatment rooms, and food factories. This is our purpose in carrying forward every line of work in the cause. Ms 154, 1902, p. 4. ("Instruction to Men in Positions of Responsibility," October 24, 1902.) {1MR 228.2}

 

Bert said:

"Matt. 24:43 and 44 refers to Christ's second coming as 'coming like a thief in the night', meaning it will occur unexpectedly.The wicked who are still alive at Christ's coming will be struck down by the 'brightness of His coming' (2nd Thess. 2:8). There will be no life on the earth other than Satan and his followers for 1000 years."

 

Bert, Christ's coming like a thief does not refer to his Second Coming for at that time every eye shall see Him come. "Coming as a thief" in Matt 24  refers to His coming to your record in the investigative judgment;

 

My response: It seems you are taking the unexpectedness of Christ's second coming and confusing it with the wicked who will die 'from the brightness of His coming'. You are correct in saying that the remaining wicked will be struck 'down by the brightness of His coming, but it follows His 'unexpected' time that the world will experience His coming, which will be followed by 'His brightness' as He arrives here...in the air. No one knows when He will come, so when He does come, it will be a surprise...unexpected.  It is within the contextual meaning contained  in Matthew 24:36, which says, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only". The reference to Noah's time where people refused to believe the message that Noah preached to them for 120 years, and then refused to go into the ark, were completely surprised at the 'unexpected' arrival of flooding rains, etc. The rains were unexpected, and so will beJesus coming. We have been told that He is coming again, but we do not know the 'day nor hour', but when it occurs, it will be all of a sudden and unexpected.

 

Jackson wrote: The reference to the time of Noah in the above GC quote was not to highlight the condition of the people when the rains began , but rather the condition of the people outside the ark after the ark door was closed. It was sunny and dry for seven more days, but the people knew not that their probation had closed and they were eternally lost. Probation closed silently, secretly, just as it would in the last days when Jesus would come silently as a thief to the life records of the two in the field and the two in the bed. Again,  in the quote above  the SOP is emphasizing the fact that probation closed for the antediluvians when the ark door closed and they knew it not. That is what Jesus is stressing in his reference to the time of Noah, in the  verses of Matthew ,Chapter 24

 

Bert responds: Read Matthew 24:38 carefully, for it is telling us that as it was in the days of Noah, people were marrying, eating, drinking, etc., completely unaware of what was about to happen to them. So it took them by surprise, and that is what Jesus is telling us.  Also, verses 40-42 is another analogy that refers to the unexpected time of the return of Jesus, and verse 42 confirms that meaning, for it tells us that 'we do not know what hour the Lord will come'.

      Second, those who refused to listen to Noah died in sin by refusing to accept the messages by Noah. The investigative judgment as part of the 'cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary' started in 1844, based on the prophecy of the 2300 years as given in Daniel 8:14, which says, "Anjd he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." I believe that the probationary period does not close until right before Christ stands up in the heavenly sanctuary and says, "It is finished".

      

Jackson wrote:  Christ's Second Advent  can be likened to an awards ceremony after a great lifelong race. At the Advent, the race is over and "His reward is with Him to give each man according to his work" But it is when the "ark door' secretly, as a thief, closes on our record, that our eternal destiny is fixed forever and the race is over' This is the warning of Rev 14:7.

 

Bert responds: All of the scriptures related to the unexpected return of Jesus are directed towards His coming 'as a thief', not when probation closes. The purpose of bringing the Three Angels Message to the world is to present the truth of His return, and to emphasize the need to be ready for His return 'at an hour you think not'. Probation will close before He returns.

 

God bless,

Bert

[Bert]

I read Mrs White's description of what she "saw" in her "visions" very carefully, but I take her interpretations with a grain of salt.  I ALWAYS take the Bible over anything she wrote.

 

She may have "seen" the wicked raised at the Second Coming, rather than 1000 years later.  She may have "seen" the trumpet judgments, and thought they were the 7 last plagues.

 

Anyway,

My view - expressed in many posts at this forum - is that the wicked (those who knew of God and rejected Him) will be raised along with every person who entered into Covenant with the LORD, at the Second Coming.  BOTH righteous and wicked are raised ON THAT DAY (Daniel 12:1-3).  Those who lived and died in ignorance ARE NOT JUDGED on that day.  Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would have no sin." 

 

Those judged wicked, will face Christ in His glory.  They will be "slain by the brightness of His coming" and their bodies will be consumed with the earth as it is "burned up" (Peter). 

 

I know that SDAs say that only those who physically crucified Christ will be raised in a "special resurrection", but Hebrews 6:6 says that those who "fall away" "crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to open shame".  So I believe that all of those who broke covenant without repentance, and those rejected Christ will be raised at the Second Coming to face judgment.

 

The earth will be totally devastated by the last plagues, and it will remain lifeless and uninhabited for 1000 years.  Jeremiah wrote that he "saw the earth" AFTER the great day of the LORD, and "it way without form and void".  Same Hebrew used for earth before anything was created on it. 

 

AFTER the 1000 years, the LORD will restore the earth.  The redeemed will "return to the land".  They will repair and rebuild.

"The rest of the dead" will live again, because their cup is NOT YET FULL. 

 

I know that Rev. says "let him that is filthy be filthy still", but I believe those words are addressed to the living.  The knowledge of the LORD will have penetrated to all the earth before the day of the Second Coming, because every LIVING person must choose whom he/she will serve, before that day. 

 

The rest of the dead will be all of those who died in ignorance, and were therefore NOT guilty of breach of covenant. 

They will be raised as physical beings.  (Satan will be "released" in the sense that he then will have people to deceive.)

They will then be taught by the "priests of God and of Christ" (everyone saved at the first resurrection - the redeemed).

They will then have to "choose whom they will serve".

Some will "go up to the House of the LORD" to "learn His ways".  (Isa. 2, Micah 4)

Some will rebel.

Those who rebel, will attempt to overthrow the rule of Christ and His priesthood.

These rebels will be consumed by the fire of God, as the LORD defends His city.

AFTER this - there will be a final great judgment, to review all of the evidence.

AFTER this - will come the final "lake of fire". 

AFTER this - the Holy City New Jerusalem will descend.

 

Concerning the priesthood:

1.  We will be priests (Rev. 20:6, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:9-10, Isa. 61:4-9).

 2.  We will reign/rule with Him - over the nations (Rev. 2:26).

 3.  Therefore we will reign with HIM - as “kings and priests” (Rev.1:6, 5:10, 3:21).

 4.  We will reign on the earth (Rev. 5:9-10).

 

Jeremiah Chapter 33:7-18  “And I will cause the captives of Judah and the captives of Israel to return, and will rebuild those places as at the first.”  They will be “a name of joy, a praise, and an honor before all nations of the earth, who shall hear all the good that I do to them; they shall fear and tremble.” A descendant of David will reign, and “execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.”  

 

    Isaiah 2:1-4 “And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains [above all kingdoms], and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:’ for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (ASV)

 

I've tried to summarize.

There are several studies at my website.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

 

I am unaware of Sister White's writings saying that the 'wicked' will be raised at Christ's second coming. The Bible specifically points out who will be raised when Jesus returns for His second coming in 1 Thess. 4:15-17. These verses tells us that when He comes that 'the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then they are caught up together with the redeemed who will not see death to meet the Lord in the air......'. That is the first resurrection. There will be no reason for the wicked to be raised, for they will not be going to heaven. The wicked will remain in their graves, to include the wicked who are still alive when Christ returns and who are 'struck down by the brightness of His coming'. They will remain in the earth for 1000 years...the millennial period, at which time they will be resurrected. See Revelation 20, verses 5-9.

 

Your reference to Daniel 12:1-3 tells us in verse 2 that when it comes 'time when His people shall be delivered are those who are written in the book', a reference to the  Book of Life. Then in verse 2, it provides a description of those who will 'awake', and in what category...'some to everlasting life' (the righteous as part of the first resurrection), and some to shame and everlasting contempt', (the wicked resurrected at the second resurrection). 

 

You wrote - I know that SDAs say that only those who physically crucified Christ will be raised in a "special resurrection", but Hebrews 6:6 says that those who "fall away" "crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to open shame".  So I believe that all of those who broke covenant without repentance, and those rejected Christ will be raised at the Second Coming to face judgment.

 

Response: It is not SDAs that say there will be a 'special resurrection' of those who were part of the crucifixion, for it is confirmed in Revelation 1:7, which says, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen".  The 'every eye' mentioned in this verse refers to those who are alive when He comes, as well as those in the graves who are resurrected as part of Christ's redeemed.

 

God bless,

Bert

[8thdaypriest]

Daniel 12:1-3

 

NIV  Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered.

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life,

others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

Personally, I think this passage has multitudes coming up from the dust.

Some of them are the redeemed

But some of them are the wicked - because they rise to "shame and everlasting contempt."

 

No one come back from "everlasting contempt".  That's a forever judgment.

 

Matthew 25:31-34, 41 sounds similar

     "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

32 All the nations will be gathered before him,

and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (NIV)

 

We can start another thread if you want to dialog concerning just who will be raised at the glorious return, and who will be raised 1000 years later.

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[JoeMo]

Of all the alternatives mentioned above, I find 8thdaypriest's to be the most plausible.  The only thing that i question is that I hold open the option that the millennium will be here on earth;  and utter devastation of the 7 bowls of wrath MIGHT just mean the Middle East and surrounding area - not the whole planet.  Who are "the nations" or 'the people" that come to Zion on festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths or tend the flocks of the saved?(Isaiah 2:3; Chap. 61,63:13-15, 66:17:24, Jeremiah 31)?  Who are those whom the Lord rules with an iron scepter (Rev. 12:5, 19;15; Psalms 110:2)?

 

I agree with Rachel that EGW saw what she saw; but the gift of prophetic vision is NOT the same as the gift of interpretation.  IMHO her interpretation of what she saw was influenced by the culture of her times and those around her who attempted to interpret her visions.

 

See www.prophecyviewpoint.org for several excellent studies on viable alternatives to the historic Adventist view.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Hello Joshua,

 

With regards to events leading up to the Second Death, something that interests me, is this thought from The Great Controversy which says  :

 

"At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on -- an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle. Kings and warriors are in his train, and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth's broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset."

(GC 664)

 

 

This interests me because it is saying, effectively, that the gates of the city are open... the gates are open, right up until Satan gives the order for his people to advance. Now it is clear, I think, that none of the wicked are capable of entering the city, so I am curious to know why those gates have been open.

 

Our pioneers suggested [with good reason, in my view,] that the "little season" between the Second Resurrection and the Lake of Fire could literally last 100 years. Why would the gates be open during this period? Not for the wicked to come in, but for the redeemed to go out. I'm certainly not suggesting that there is some kind of "second probation", or that the redeemed would change sides (obviously this is absurd), but I do hold the view that the redeemed will be moving out and in through the gates, doing something. 

[JoeMo]

Stewart says,

"the "little season" between the Second Resurrection and the Lake of Fire could literally last 100 years."

 

Could it last 100 years in order to allow "the rest of the dead" - including those who never heard of Christ, were babies, or had a perverted view of God due to religion - to see who God actually is and make an intelligent choice between God and satan?  The gates remain open until all have made their choice; and are then closed against the armies of satan.  Just a thought ...

[Stewart (SDA)]

 

Could it last 100 years in order to allow "the rest of the dead" - including those who never heard of Christ, were babies, or had a perverted view of God due to religion - to see who God actually is and make an intelligent choice between God and satan?  The gates remain open until all have made their choice; and are then closed against the armies of satan.  Just a thought ...

It is an appealing thought JoeMo, but for some reason I do not believe that it will be possible for them to "choose life". I fervently believe that God's love for His enemies will not have changed -- even then it will be as deep as ever (... God loves with an "everlasting love". No question in my mind about that!) But the opportunity for salvation will have ended shortly before Jesus' Second Coming. . Again, I do not believe that this will be an arbitrary decision on God's part, but then [after the second resurrection,] the people will be under such strong influences/delusions that the door will be "shut" against them. I am of the mind that there will be interactions between the redeemed and the lost, and that some good will be done, but this will not save them from the terrible fate that lies ahead.

[Robert]

Could it last 100 years in order to allow "the rest of the dead" - including those who never heard of Christ, were babies....The gates remain open until all have made their choice.....

 

 

All babies who die before they reach the age of accountability are secure in Christ.

 

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 

 

Our condemnation "in Adam" has been legally reversed "in Christ".  Hence Christ's doing & dying resulted in "justification of life to all men".

 

"As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again nevermore to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life." 2 SM 260

[Robert]

Ellen White was quite explicit that the death of Christ has saving efficiency for infants, even though they cannot choose to be saved.