Question regarding the second death

[8thdaypriest]

Of all the alternatives mentioned above, I find 8thdaypriest's to be the most plausible.  The only thing that i question is that I hold open the option that the millennium will be here on earth;  and utter devastation of the 7 bowls of wrath MIGHT just mean the Middle East and surrounding area - not the whole planet.  Who are "the nations" or 'the people" that come to Zion on festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths or tend the flocks of the saved?(Isaiah 2:3; Chap. 61,63:13-15, 66:17:24, Jeremiah 31)?  Who are those whom the Lord rules with an iron scepter (Rev. 12:5, 19;15; Psalms 110:2)?

 

I agree with Rachel that EGW saw what she saw; but the gift of prophetic vision is NOT the same as the gift of interpretation.  IMHO her interpretation of what she saw was influenced by the culture of her times and those around her who attempted to interpret her visions.

 

See www.prophecyviewpoint.org for several excellent studies on viable alternatives to the historic Adventist view.

 

Thanks Joe,

I personally think the ONE best reason to believe that the earth is "the uninhabited place" during the upcoming 7th millennium (not where we - with Christ will be ruling) is just our own personal condition - spiritually speaking.  Don't know 'bout you, but I'm not ready to "rule the nations".  I can barely rule myself consistently.  I believe we will need 1000 years of rehabilitation and training  at the New Jerusalem university, before we will be ready to "govern" as priests under Christ. 

 

The first priests - Aaron and his sons - did NOT BEGIN to minister as priests UNTIL "the eighth day".  If you can think of the redeemed collectively as the priesthood of the coming Kingdom of Messiah's reign, then our consecration should take 7 "days".  "With the LORD a thousand years is as a day, and a day as a thousand years" (Peter).  The LORD told Adam, "for in the day you eat of it, you will surely die".  Adam died at 930 years, just short of "the day".  Even Methuselah died at 969 years.  No human - post fall - lived more than a 1000 year day. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

All babies who die before they reach the age of accountability are secure in Christ.

 

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 

 

Our condemnation "in Adam" has been legally reversed "in Christ".  Hence Christ's doing & dying resulted in "justification of life to all men".

 

"As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again nevermore to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life." 2 SM 260

 

The death of Christ has provided probation and an opportunity for each human being to choose the service of God.  Before one can be saved he/she "must be born again".  Physical birth into this existence is NOT ENOUGH to give us eternal life.  Babies cannot be "born again".  That is why we do not baptize infants.  Information is required before one can "choose life".  

 

That is why I believe that all infants and children before the age of responsibility (age 20 yrs according to the Book of Numbers) will be resurrected as part of "the rest of the dead" to continue their physical lives, learn of God, and then make their choice. 

 

I personally do NOT believe that God will take into His kingdom anyone who has not knowingly chosen to serve HIM, and that choice has been tested for a period of time.

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Robert]

The death of Christ has provided probation and an opportunity for each human being to choose the service of God.  Before one can be saved he/she "must be born again"

 

No!  Absolutely not!

 

Christ's death was our death (see Romans 6:6/7:4 2 Cor 5:14).  Humanity has been saved (historical, past tense) in the doing & dying of Christ.  "All men have been justified unto life" (Rom 5:18), yet not all men will accept what is already true of them "in Christ Jesus."

 

 

That is why I believe that all infants and children before the age of responsibility (age 20 yrs according to the Book of Numbers) will be resurrected as part of "the rest of the dead" to continue their physical lives, learn of God, and then make their choice. 

 

  This isn't Biblical.  

[Robert]

Romans 5:12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 

 

 

Sin (our bent-to-self) entered the world through father Adam. This iniquity (sin) was passed to us from Adam because we share his fallen life. 

 

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses...

 

 

 

Did you get that???

 

Between Adam and Moses (where the law was given) sin was in the world, but legally speaking transgression can not imputed when there is not law!  So all those from Adam to Moses were dying, not because of transgression, but because they shared in Adam's condemned life indwelt by iniquity (our bent-to-self).

 

Infants are sinners.  Why?  They are Adam's offspring.  They will eventually die.  Those who die prematurely do so because they inherited Adam's fallen life.  They do not die "the curse of the law" because transgression "is not imputed when there is no law".  

 

20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase....

 

 

The law was not given to make matters better, but rather worse....The law came into to place sinners under the curse so that mankind might see their need of Christ and be justified through faith.

 

Infants never came "under the law" and therefore they do not need redeeming from under it.  Yes, they need a Savior, but not because they stand guilty under law.  They need saving from the condemnation that came upon all of Adam's offspring because all share his fallen life indwelt with iniquity.

[LifeHiscost]

 

 

What's not to believe?

 

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.....John 3

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

Summary:

 

Fallen mankind needs delivered from two things:

 

1] His fallen life received from Adam.

 

2] The curse of the law, the 2nd death.

 

Infants have no personal transgression even thought they are sinners.  So # 2 cannot apply to infants.

 

When these infants grow up and reach the age of accountability then they need to receive Christ by faith.  Why?  To be delivered legally from under law.

[Robert]

What's not to believe?

 

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.....John 3

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

 

Was Jesus speaking to infants?  Please look at the context!

 

 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 

[Robert]

 

Infants never came "under the law" and therefore they do not need redeeming from under it.  Yes, they need a Savior, but not because they stand guilty under law.  They need saving from the condemnation that came upon all of Adam's offspring because all share his fallen life indwelt with iniquity.

 

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men (mankind - see Romans 5:12), even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men (mankind)".

 

This "condemnation" was not because all men (mankind) were born transgressors and therefore guilty, but rather all men are born condemned because they share Adam's fallen life indwelt with iniquity.  The fact you have a sinful nature disqualifies you from heaven.  This has nothing to do with the law, here!

 

Because we are born "in sin" (see Ps 51:5) Christ, by His doing & dying, has reversed our condemnation from Adam.  Hence all infants come into this world "justified"!!!!  

 

When one passes the age accountability then he/she comes under the jurisdiction of the law.  To go from under law to under grace the mature sinner must accept Christ by faith.  This is justification by faith.

[Stewart (SDA)]

What's not to believe?

 

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.....John 3

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

This is a strong statement. Jesus certainly appears to make rebirth a prerequisite to seeing/entering the Kingdom of God.

 

But if babies are born saved by default, as Robert seems to be suggesting, then there is a large area of "exemption" in Jesus statement.

 

When David said that he was conceived in sin (Ps 51:5), I have understood him to be speaking as a representative man. All of us, from the very point of conception, were "in sin".

 

And when Jesus prefaces His statement about the necessity of rebirth, with the words "verily verily", He is certainly making a major point.

[Robert]

 

But if babies are born saved by default, as Robert seems to be suggesting, then there is a large area of "exemption" in Jesus statement.

 

And we were all at one time, babies....

 

So the human race no longer stands condemned because of its association to fallen Adam.   Therefore the infant who dies prematurely dies only the first death and never the second death (the curse of the law).

 

This is very comforting to me....Think of all those aborted infants....Those mothers, unless they accept Christ, will never see heaven, but those murdered, unwanted infants will have life eternal.

 

If not, then these innocent ones will suffer twice!  

[Robert]

"The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life." 2 SM 260

 

Moms under the curse & infants (who exercised no faith in Christ) alive for eternity!

[Robert]

...then there is a large area of "exemption" in Jesus statement.....

 

Is it possible for a infant never to reach the age of accountability?  Yes, we call it "intellectual disability" or "mental retardation".   Hence it must include these also....God knows....

[Robert]

“Whether all the children of unbelieving parents will be saved we cannot tell, because God has not made known His purpose in regard to this matter, and we had better leave it where God has left it and dwell upon subjects made plain in His Word." 3SM 315 (1885). 

 

Well, that was 1885.  

 

The question has been asked me (Ellen G. White), "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the word of truth. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us...” (Review and Herald, June 3, 1890)

[LifeHiscost]

This is a strong statement. Jesus certainly appears to make rebirth a prerequisite to seeing/entering the Kingdom of God.

 

But if babies are born saved by default, as Robert seems to be suggesting, then there is a large area of "exemption" in Jesus statement.

 

When David said that he was conceived in sin (Ps 51:5), I have understood him to be speaking as a representative man. All of us, from the very point of conception, were "in sin".

 

And when Jesus prefaces His statement about the necessity of rebirth, with the words "verily verily", He is certainly making a major point.

I would suggest this principle covers more than those guilty of hanging Jesus on the cross.

 

34But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.....Luke 23

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

I would suggest this principle covers more than those guilty of of hanging Jesus on the cross.

 

34But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.....Luke 23

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

Why did they not know?

 

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father (i.e., murder Christ)."

 

So they were deceived, yet Christ time after time corrected them.  Did they receive His correction?  No!  So they forfeited heaven. Read Matt chapter 23

[LifeHiscost]

Why did they not know?

 

 

 

 

I know that presenting anything that would not fit into what you are already aware of is merely a debate and I have no desire to attempt to prove something about the gospel, especially with the amount of scripture you already have made up your mind about. Jesus has made the plan of salvation plain enough for a child to understand, and given information that when we are willing to do His, it will be made known (which applies to me as well as anyone else) makes it clear when the Scripture goes round and round there is no good purpose served.

 

…16So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.....John 7

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

    

Whether all the children of unbelieving parents will be saved we cannot tell, because God has not made known His purpose in regard to this matter, and we had better leave it where God has left it and dwell upon subjects made plain in His Word.--3SM 313-315 (1885).  {LDE 293.3}

 

 

Ellen White is not the final word....She changed her Scriptural views (as do we all) as she grew spiritually.  She is not the measuring stick of truth.  The Bible is and she repeated this time and time again.  Truth is progressive.  

 

The Bible is actual clear on this subject concerning those who have not reached the age of accountability.

[Robert]

 

 

Ellen White is not the final word....She changed her Scriptural views (as do we all) as she grew spiritually.  She is not the measuring stick of truth.  The Bible is and she repeated this time and time again.  Truth is progressive.  

 

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/spiritual/the_organized_church/infallible.htm

[Robert]

Some questioned whether the little children of even believing parents should be saved, because they have had no test of character and all must be tested and their character determined by trial. The question is asked, "How can little children have this test and trial?" I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children, as when God sent His judgments upon the first-born of the Egyptians. . . .  {LDE 293.2} 

 

 

I do not agree with EGW's conclusion.

 

 Faith is a mental decision based spiritual knowledge.  Faith is accepting what is already true of us in Christ Jesus.  Faith is not the Savior...Jesus is the Savior. If the parent's faith saves then "faith", not Jesus, saves.  

 

Show in the Bible (the measuring stick of truth) were infants who die prematurely must be saved by a believing parent.  Yes?

[Robert]

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/spiritual/the_organized_church/infallible.htm

 

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error.  The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible.  Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair.  No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."

[Review and Herald, December 20,1892]

 

Definition of "our":  "Used by a writer, editor, or monarch to refer to something belonging to or associated with himself or herself."

 

Ellen White included herself in the above quote.

[8thdaypriest]

Human beings are born "carnal".  Their nature is carnal.  To be born again means to receive a new nature - a spiritual one. 

I personally do NOT believe that God indwells where He has not been invited. 

His spirit may plead or influence an individual - yes - but that is not yet the "born again" experience.

 

Before a person can be "born again" he/she must receive information, and be capable of understanding.

 

        The big question here is: Do we begin life in a saved condition?   Are we born “in Christ” and then remain in Christ unless we knowingly rebel against Christ ?  

    Are we born forgiven?    My answer would be - NO.

           

    “carnal” “sold under sin” (Romans 7:14)     “by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3)
    “alienated and enemies” of God (Colossians 1:20)    

    “without hope and without God” - speaking of the Gentiles (Ephesians 2:11-12).  So this would INCLUDE their infants.

 

Galatians 3:22 “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

    The promise of eternal life is given to “those who believe”.  It is not given to everyone.  But belief requires information, and processing information.

 

John 1:12  “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:”

        By implication, those who do not believe in His name (or who do not yet believe) - who have not “received Him” -  are not (or not yet) children of God.

 

INFORMATION IS ESSENTIAL

 

    I Thessalonians 3:16   [Persecution by Jews and pagans] “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved,”

        To paraphrase Paul, “If we don’t speak to the Gentiles about Christ, they cannot be saved.”

 

    Romans 10:14 “But how are they to call on One in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in One of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim Him?” (NRS)

    Romans 10:17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.” (NRS)

Hearing the gospel message - is essential!  
There are millions of human beings who have died without any knowledge of God
or of His Son.  They must be resurrected, so that they can hear.

    Colossians 1:28  “Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.”

    I Timothy 2:4 God “who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

 

If every ignorant Gentile, and every retarded person, and every immature infant or child can be admitted to the kingdom BECAUSE of their ignorance, then WHY go and preach to them?  They are better off staying ignorant!! 

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint
 

 

   

 

[8thdaypriest]

My belief is that Christ's death has bought a probation for mankind. 

Yes - His death has bought salvation and eternal life for those who believe, but it has also bought probationary time, during which every human being will be given the opportunity to choose.  He/she will be reached with enough information upon which to base belief and surrender to God our Father - thru Christ. 

 

The ONLY way in which to accomplish a universal gospel teaching of EVERY man, woman and child is RESURRECTION of those who died in ignorance or immaturity.  Christ's death has bought this probationary time. 

[8thdaypriest]

I'm going to start another thread where we can talk about the "first resurrection" and the "second resurrection".

[8thdaypriest]

Isaiah spoke of children in the Kingdom where the wolf will lie down with the lamb.  (Isa. Cpt 11)

 

    Isaiah 65:20  “No more will babies die in infancy, no more will an old man die short of his days - he who dies at a hundred will be thought young, and at less than a hundred thought cursed.” (CJB)

    QUESTION:  What does it mean-for us to “rule the nations with a rod of iron,” unless it includes the possibility of the death penalty?  Christ can heal or even restore to life, one who dies in an accident or one who is murdered by another, but I do not believe He will resurrect one who is executed for murder.

    QUESTION: How could there be death in the Messianic Kingdom?  ANSWER:   Those raised to continue their lives AFTER the 1000 years will be mortal human beings.  They have not yet been “changed”/ “circumcised in flesh.”  They have not yet received immortal/spiritual bodies.  Therefore they CAN DIE.

 

Do I believe that conception will continue AFTER resurrection? NO.  Any child brought into this kingdom arrives there by resurrection from death.  Anything connected with sex and reproduction was declared "unclean" by Yahweh, therefore there will be "no marriage" and no conception in the coming kingdom.  But the fact that there ARE children, on the earth, in the Messianic Kingdom, tells me that they will be resurrected AS CHILDREN, along with all "the rest of the dead" - those who died in ignorance, for whom probation will continue.

[JoeMo]

"Anything connected with sex and reproduction was declared "unclean" by Yahweh"

 

Bummer.