Question regarding the second death

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**off topic**

 

this is how JoeMo's post appeared in the "preview" on my screen:

 

 

 

I had to click to see who "Yahweh Bummer" was...  

 

 

[Robert]

There are millions of human beings who have died without any knowledge of God

or of His Son.  They must be resurrected, so that they can hear.

 

 

Where is a 2nd, first resurrection taught in the Bible?

[JoeMo]

**off topic**

 

this is how JoeMo's post appeared in the "preview" on my screen:

 

Screen Shot 2014-12-15 at 1.09.27 PM.png

 

 

I had to click to see who "Yahweh Bummer" was...  

 

 That will teach me to check my punctuation prior to hitting post...

[JoeMo]

Where is a 2nd, first resurrection taught in the Bible?

You know the answer already - first resurrection at the 2nd coming of Christ at the start of the Thousand Years; 2nd resurrection at the end.  See Rev. 20.

[8thdaypriest]

The only place that specifically calls a resurrection "the first" is Revelation 20:4-6

 

KJV  Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (KJV)

 

We call the resurrection AFTER the 1000 years "the second resurrection" because the resurrection of the redeemed is called "the first resurrection". 

 

Those who are resurrected "first" CANNOT be hurt by the "second death".  They have been made immortal. 

 

Those who are resurrected "second" - or AFTER the 1000 years, are NOT immune from "the second death". 

But it does not absolutely follow that everyone resurrected second WILL die the "second death".

It just means that they have not been given immortal spiritual bodies. 

This says to me that they could be still in a probationary state, meaning they may be lost or saved.  That it's NOT decided yet.

 

No text says that all of those resurrected at the end of the 1000 years WILL die the second death.

It only says that those resurrected "first" cannot be hurt by the second death.

 

It is an assumption - that ALL of those resurrected after the 1000 years WILL DIE the "second death". 

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Redeemed human beings will rise to the highest positions in the government of God.  Because of this, they MUST be tested - every one of them.

Their loyalty to covenant with the LORD must be demonstrated by their actions, before the created beings of the universe. 

 

The LORD set up a TEST for Adam and Eve. 

 

Humans are not just pets, taken home from a shelter called Earth, to be loved and pampered by the supreme Owner Being.

 

Infants, children, mentally challenged, and the ignorant CANNOT pass any TEST.   That would not be just. 

 

The only way for these people to demonstrate individual choice is to resurrect them, inform them and then give them time. 

The Israelites SEEMED very committed at first.  But with time, their actions demonstrated their true selfish allegiance. 

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[LifeHiscost]

Was Jesus speaking to infants?  Please look at the context!

 

 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 

Were Adam and Eve fully other oriented when God breathed into their nostrils the breath of life? I would say yes because they were made fully in the image of God. So also a resurrected baby shall be when they are born again, A man who is cognizant in this world of his natural condition and chooses by faith to receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit will be resurrected just as a newborn baby, both born again. The only difference, the man recognizing by conviction of his lack and still having a fallen nature, submits with recognition of his desperate need for purposeful change, whereas the aborted or other terminal life of the mentally deficient will be born the second time, not recognizing this to be his/her second birth.

 

34But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing....Luke 23

 

OTOH, one continuing to follow evil selfish practices, something that an aborted person wouldn't have experienced, despite the pleadings of the Holy Spirit, will suffer eternal separation from He Who is Life.

 

…22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'....Matt 7  Emphasis theirs' LHC 

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

Redeemed human beings will rise to the highest positions in the government of God.  Because of this, they MUST be tested - every one of them.

Their loyalty to covenant with the LORD must be demonstrated by their actions, before the created beings of the universe. 

 

Infants, children, mentally challenged, and the ignorant CANNOT pass any TEST.   That would not be just. 

 

 

Sounds legalistic to me....Sounds like you are presenting "another gospel"!

[Robert]

No text says that all of those resurrected at the end of the 1000 years WILL die the second death.

It only says that those resurrected "first" cannot be hurt by the second death.

 

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God (i.e., the 2nd death), which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 

 

Mark 14:32 32 They came to a place named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, "Sit here until I have prayed." 33 And He took with Him Peter and James and John, and began to be very distressed and troubled. 34 And He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch." 35 And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray that if it were possible, the hour might pass Him by. 36 And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will."

 

That "cup" is the 2nd death that Jesus took upon Himself.

 

The 2nd resurrection ends in the 2nd death!!!!  No probation for it has closed....

[JoeMo]

Robert says "...will drink of the wine of the wrath of God (i.e., the 2nd death)"

While your text could refer to the 2nd death, it is your interpretation - in no way is it rock-solid.  Details of the end of probation are an SDA construct.  I'm much more prone to go with 8thdaypriest's interpretation (admittedly because it closely fits with my own).

[Robert]

Robert says "...will drink of the wine of the wrath of God (i.e., the 2nd death)"

While your text could refer to the 2nd death, it is your interpretation - in no way is it rock-solid.  Details of the end of probation are an SDA construct.  I'm much more prone to go with 8thdaypriest's interpretation (admittedly because it closely fits with my own).

 

 

My interpretation is self-evident.  Look again what Christ stated:

 

"Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done." 

 

The cup was His death upon the cross.  How was this the 2nd death?

 

Jesus was totally depending on His Father for the resurrection, but on the cross the Father abandoned Christ.   With His Father gone, Christ saw only the eternal grave.

[LifeHiscost]

My interpretation is self-evident.

20So that ye first know this, that no prophecy in the scripture hath any private interpretation. 21For the scripture came never by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy ghost.....2 Peter 1

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[JoeMo]

Robert,

I was meditating on what you said about the 2nd death.  I still don't think you can positively link drinking God's wrath to the 2nd death or the cup Jesus wanted the Father to take.

 

Jesus was the "first fruit" of those to be resurrected.  I infer from that that He died the first death.  If He had died the second death, He would be the "only fruit"; cuz no one will ever come back from the second death.  The second death is equivalent to a person being "deleted".  He/she is forever gone; as is the "memory" of them.  This could ( not will) even be God's "memory" of them.

 

Asking God to bring back someone from the second death might be equivalent to asking Him to make a rock so big He couldn't lift it.

[8thdaypriest]

OK - so now we are debating whether Jesus died the "second death".

 

Hebrews 2:9 says that Jesus was "made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death". 

 

So - angels cannot DIE physically.  They are spirit beings.  Which is why the "lake of fire" was created for their destruction.  That special means of destruction was necessary for spirit beings who cannot die physically.  

 

Luke 20:36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." 

 

No where does it say that Jesus was thrown into the "lake of fire".  

He died physically.

And He was resurrected with a new "spiritual body" just as we will be.

It was NOT the type of death which He died. 

The significance of His death does not lie in the TYPE of death which He died. 

It lies in just WHO He was/and is.

He was the Creator. 

THAT is how His physical death could pay for His PHYSICAL creation. 

 

If He was going to die for angels, He might have to die "spirit" death (the second type of death). 

But He didn't die for angels.

 

And He fulfilled the TERMS of the covenants (creation covenant, Abrahamic covenant, Mosaic covenant).

When He fulfilled the TERMS, He could receive the promises (land, and reign).

As King over this earth, He then gets to decide just WHO will enter His Kingdom. 

Which is why "all judgment has been given to the Son". 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

I agree that the Father left His own Son, while He hung on a cross.

 

Romans 8:32  “God gave Him up for us all.” (NIV) (Amplified)  

    But the verse does not say “God killed Him.”  It says “God gave Him up.” The Greek word used in Romans 8, speaking of Christ, is the same as the one used in Romans 1:24,26,28 and Romans 8:32 - “gave up.”

 

  

  
 

[LifeHiscost]

 the ideal is to burn in this fire through out eternity!

15which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 Who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen....1 Tim 6

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!

[Robert]

....no one will ever come back from the second death.

 

Correct...and Jesus as the Son of Man never came back.....

 

2 Cor 5:16 ...From now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

 

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with...

[LifeHiscost]

 Jesus as the Son of Man never came back.....

 

Who was it that Mary met after Jesus was resurrected?

 

…15Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" Supposing Him to be the gardener, she said to Him, "Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away." 16Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, "Rabboni!" (which means, Teacher). 17Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"….John 20

 

…29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.....Matt 24 emphasis theirs' LHC

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

Who was it that Mary met after Jesus was resurrected?

 

 

A new creation....The old Adamic life that Christ, as God, assumed died forever.....

 

The same will happen to you at the resurrection, only you will not experience the 2nd death.  At the resurrection you will be changed.  The old vanishes in a blink of and eye.  You will be changed.  You will be "like the angels".  

[LifeHiscost]

A new creation....The old Adamic life that Christ, as God, assumed died forever.....

 

The same will happen to you at the resurrection, only you will not experience the 2nd death.  At the resurrection you will be changed.  The old vanishes in a blink of and eye.  You will be changed.  You will be "like the angels".  

If you are speaking about the fallen nature as the Adamic life, I agree. However I see Jesus as having the nature of Adam before He fell. Jesus not only came to take the penalty of the second death we deserve, because of our sinful nature and actions, but also to reveal Adam could have lived without sin before he willingly yielded himself over to the enemy of souls.

Adam willingly yielded himself over to obey the enemy, whereas Jesus only willingly yielded Himself over to the results of man's walking contrary to the universal principles of life.

 

14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One Who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.  16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need....Hebrews 4

 

The same Adam that existed before the fall is the Adam that will reign on the earth after the thousand year reign in Heaven with the King of kings. That idea is subject to change by scriptural evidence but these two texts lead me to that conclusion.

 

5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.... Matt 5

 

3Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all people who were on the face of the earth....Numbers 12

 

God is Love! Jesus save! 

[Ted Oplinger]

LHC,

 

 

 

If you are speaking about the fallen nature as the Adamic life, I agree. However I see Jesus as having the nature of Adam before He fell. Jesus not only came to take the penalty of the second death we deserve, because of our sinful nature and actions, but also to reveal Adam could have lived without sin before he willingly yielded himself over to the enemy of souls.

 

 

Not sure if you're aware of it, but that is precisely what the Roman Catholic Orthodox position is on the subject of Christ's human nature. It necessarily means for Christ o be born with a sinless human nature, Mary would have had to have been so born...and likewise all the way back to Eve. The logic of that position must ultimately exclude women from being sinful, because Eve wasn't could not have been included in the legacy of sin - unfortunately, this is also quite contrary to the pronouncements of God in Genesis 3 in her pain during childbirth and in predicting her desires to dominate her man, but ultimately being subject to him instead.

 

Hebrews 2:14 states that Christ partook of the same flesh and blood as the children. Verse 17 continues to say He was made in all things like unto His brethren, so that He could be the merciful and faithful High Priest as well as to be the  propitiation for the sins of the people.

 

Hebrews 4:15 says our High Priest (who was made in all things like His brethren) was tempted in all things like we are tempted, yet was without sin. Our strongest temptations do not come from outside ourselves, but from within. This is where Christ says the murders, fornications, adulteries, stealing, etc., all originate:

 

Mark 7:20-23 - "And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

 

James 1:14-15 confirms this by describing the exact process of how we sin - "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."

 

If Christ had not stepped in as mankind's Redeemer, that death would have been the irreversible second death - even as far back as Adam (making the human race null and void even before there was a human race).

 

Christ had to be made fully human (as we are) to reconnect the human race back to the Source and Author of Life. It required Him to become as One with the sinful human race (Hebrews 2:11), as He was One with the sin-consuming Holy Father (John 17:22). I cannot see it happening any other way in order for Christ to be the satisfactory propitiation for our sin. Adam prior to his Fall had no need to be re-connected back to God - he had the original connection intact. Once trashed, that original connection Adam had could not be restored. Adam had to be re-connected through Christ, just as we.

 

It literally boggles my mind what the Word says had to happen, for us to even have the offer of grace and eternal life given to us.

 

Blessings,

[LifeHiscost]

LHC,

 

Not sure if you're aware of it, but that is precisely what the Roman Catholic Orthodox position is on the subject of Christ's human nature. It necessarily means for Christ o be born with a sinless human nature

 

It literally boggles my mind what the Word says had to happen, for us to even have the offer of grace and eternal life given to us.

 

Blessings,

I appreciate your response, Ted. Here's my answer to one of your conclusions.

 

There are only two options re: Jesus' person when He was here on this earth. It would either have been sinless or sinful.

 

If it was sinful, He wouldn't have been able to die to pay for our penalty. He would have had to die for the penalty His own lack demanded.

 

Adam and Eve were both subject to temptation when they were still perfect with the same nature Jesus had when He came to this earth as a Babe. Jesus proved by His faithfulness, in spite of human weakness, that if one never yielded to the enemy of souls, God's power and strength in anyone's life would keep them. After yielding to the temptor, which is essentially choosing another master than Christ, our natures, through the line of the fallen Adam, became slaves to the enemy of souls.

 

OTOH, anyone confessing their own sinfulness and accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord, have uncounted promises give to the children of the King, that delivers them from the enemy.

 

…4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing...John 15

 

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand....Ephesians 6

 

 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?...Romans 6

 

It does say that Jesus became sin for us. However I think there is a difference between "sin for us"  and "sinful for us".

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Ted Oplinger]

LHC,

 

I appreciate your desire to put Christ in the best light possible with respect to His incarnation.

 

There's a major difference between saying Christ had a sinful nature, versus saying He wrapped sinful human nature as a mantle around Himself. I believe Scripture depicts the latter.

 

I see the Scriptures stating that Christ was completely sinless, even in thought, even while bearing our sinful human nature with Him. 

 

For sinful man to die the second death, Christ had to bear that humanity to the cross without sinning in His own right. 2 Corinthians 5:21 - "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." For Divine justice to be satisfied - the propitiation made complete - Christ and our sinful humanity had to be inseparable.

 

You DO want to be seen by God wearing the very righteousness of Christ, inseparable from you in your current humanity, do you not? We all do. None of us can enter the kingdom without it.

 

Well, what Christ did on the cross was simply the flip side of that same coin. We, who are sinners even in thought, may bear about ourselves the mantle of Christ's righteous humanity and righteousness, even as He, being Holy God, wrapped our sinful humanity and sins around Himself. Both sides assume a new identity inseparable. Christ went on to taste the second death for all of man; those choosing to bear Christ's humanity go on to taste the eternal life belonging to God.

 

That's how I see it. I think this exchange is so complete that both the redeemed and sacrifice withstand the most infinitely scrutinization of Divine Mercy and Justice, satisfying both. 

 

To put this in context of this thread - I view that death which Christ tasted was indeed the second death - that which should have happened to Adam the moment he tasted that fruit, and the very thing which all choosing not to accept God's offer in Christ will ultimately suffer.Divine justice necessarily requires the death of the sinner (Ezekiel 18:4; 20); it will not condemn the innocent, nor acquit the guilty (Numbers 14:18, Ezekiel 18:26, 27). Christ could not in any small thing be seen in Divine light as innocent of our sin; in the same light, we cannot be seen to be in any small thing guilty in being united with Christ's righteousness.

 

The power of Christ in uniting with our sinful humanity means He can in righteousness unite us with His righteous humanity (which never sinned while alive here on earth). It can be truly said we died the stroke of the second death with Christ at the cross, so the penalty need not be visited again - Divine justice does not place people in double jeopardy.

 

Blessings,

[Ted Oplinger]

Jackson,

 

Christ was our example - in life and in death.

 

In life, Christ became the bridge, taking on our fallen human nature all the while allowing the father to fully indwell. In the conflict between the Father's holiness and and the fallen nature Christ had wrapped Himself with, holiness won, resulting in righteousness being made manifest in the life lived by Christ. Peter pointed makes this statement in 1 Peter 2:21. 

 

In no point did Christ claim for Himself the triumphant life lived in the flesh - He attributed it all to the Father's presence at work within to will and to do of His good pleasure. Christ offers to us nothing less than the same to repeat that same victory - the Father's holiness coming in contact with our sinful humanity again, and again winning the battle and consuming away sin, becoming Christ's very righteousness repeated and manifest in our lives, even as we repent and submit to Christ and Father. 

 

Allowing our sinful self to die away is to repeat what Christ allowed His "self" to do, both in life and on the Cross. That Christ had a "self" to deny is seen strikingly in the Garden of Gethsemane..."If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but Your will be done." Christ's "self" did not WANT to go to the Cross - He had to make it subject to a will other than His own...His Father's will...in order to go to the Cross.

 

Likewise, in life and in dying to self, the example is there for us to pick up and repeat.

 

In a very real sense, in desiring and allowing our sinful selves to be rendered dead in this life, what is sin in us does die the second death, for it will not be carried with us into the New Kingdom when He comes - and will not afflict us there, even as Christ's humanity no longer bears the affliction of bearing with our sinfulness.

 

Blessings,

[Robert]

If you are speaking about the fallen nature as the Adamic life, I agree. 

 

Where is this fallen nature?  How do you remove it?  

 

When you are re-created you will made in the image and likeness of God.  You will no longer be flesh & blood, but you will be "as the angels".   Angels can fly...they can thought transport, they can materialize and disappear.  They can walk through walls.  They can do a lot of things you cannot do.  So "no", the old you (the Adamic life) doesn't not come up.