John 3:13 "no one has ascended"

[8thdaypriest]

This question was probably answered on another thread, and if so perhaps someone could just give me that link.

 

NIV  John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-- the Son of Man.1 (Joh 3:13 NIV)

 

Also “No one has seen God at any time (John 1:18).   and   Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father” (Jn 6:46).

 

God the Father dwells in "unapproachable light whom no one has seen or can see" (I Tim 6:14). 

Enoch, Elijah, and Moses could have been translated to "heaven" but still not have entered that light, or have "seen God".

 

How do we answer folks who say that Enoch, Moses and Elijah did not go to heaven?  Who say that Enoch and Elijah were just transported to another location on the earth, and later died like everyone else.  Like Philip was transported in the NT. 

 

If "no one has ascended" - at least at the time Jesus spoke those words, that would mean that those three men were/are still sleeping in death.

 

There is a clue in Romans where Paul said, "death reigned from Adam to Moses" (Rom 5:14).  Something involving death changed with Moses.  If death no longer reigned supreme and unchallenged that sounds like a resurrection to me.  Of course, I've always had a question concerning just who buried Moses.  Why would Michael bury him, if he planned to resurrect him right away?

 

I think I understand why only Moses and Elijah came to speak with Christ prior to His ordeal.  According to the law, only two witnesses were required.  

 

Thanks - in advance - for any input

Rachel 

 

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel:  You have raised a good question, which had not previously occurred to me.

 

My initial, off the cuff thought:  The context is one in which Christ is telling Nicodemus the He (Christ) is the only one who has come from heaven to Earth to teach humans about God.  In verse 2, Nicodemus calls Christ a RAbbi sent from God.  In the next few verses Christ is teaching Nicodemus.   Nicodemus then asks Christ how those teachings can be truth, verse 9.   Christ in essence responds by telling him that the truth in the matter lies in the fact that Christ has been in heaven and has come to earth teach people about God.   No other has gone from Earth to heaven and then returned to teach people.

 

I do not claim that this is a perfect answer, but it is my initial thought.

[8thdaypriest]

Thanks Gregory,

Yes - I agree.  No one from earth had ever gone up to heaven, and returned to tell of it. 

 

There WERE visions of heaven, and the Ancient of Days, and the movable throne (Ezekiel and Daniel). 

And those men wrote about it. 

 

Exodus 6:3, Gen 18 - The LORD said that He "appeared" to Abram.  But I believe that was Christ, NOT the Father.

And Abraham was not transported up to heaven, and brought back.

 

Same for Exo 33:9, where the LORD spoke with Moses face to face, and Exo 24:10 where Moses and the elders "saw the God of Israel".

 

The Church of God 7th Day has, as one of its fundamentals, that the dead are all sleeping in their graves - no exceptions.

 

I've had several questions send to my website concerning John 3:13. 

So - I thought I'd run it by the forum.  Maybe they had come up with some better answers.

[Sojourner]

 

The Church of God 7th Day has, as one of its fundamentals, that the dead are all sleeping in their graves - no exceptions.

 

 

A little hard for Moses and Elijah to be asleep when they are openly speaking with Jesus Christ at the Transfiguration? 

Prior to joining the SDA I visited COG7, I found it interesting that they are "Binitarian" as opposed to "Trinitarian" I was unable to reconcile that with Scripture and decided that it was not the denomination for me. Lovely people though, yet seemed to have a few problems with ex Worldwide Church of God members with Armstrong beliefs trying to push those beliefs on others in the congregation. 

[LifeHiscost]

Thanks Gregory,

Yes - I agree.  No one from earth had ever gone up to heaven, and returned to tell of it. 

…12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. ...John 3

 

One must recognize Jesus spoke these words before He met on the mount of transfiguration in the company of Moses and Elijah as also when it is written He led captivity captive.

 

 

1Six days later Jesus took Peter and the two brothers, James and John, and led them up a high mountain to be alone. 2As the men watched, Jesus’ appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light. 3Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.

4Peter exclaimed, “Lord, it’s wonderful for us to be here! If you want, I’ll make three shelters as memorials^a—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

5But even as he spoke, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy. Listen to him.” 6The disciples were terrified and fell face down on the ground.

7Then Jesus came over and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8And when they looked up, Moses and Elijah were gone, and they saw only Jesus....Matt 17

 

…7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." …Ephesians 4  Emphasis theirs' LHC

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!  

[8thdaypriest]

Psalm 24:3-4 “Who may ascend into the hill of the LORD? Or who may stand in His holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart . . .”  

        This description fits only one Being - Jesus the Christ.   He is the only One who could or had “ascended” into the very heart of God.

 

Before He incarnated into human flesh, Jesus sat at the right hand of God. 

According to 1 Tim. 6:14, God dwells in "unapproachable light". 

Jesus had not only entered, but had also dwelt in that "unapproachable" place. 

 

John 6:62 “What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?”   
        Where was He “before”?  Jesus prayed, “Father ... glorify me with the glory that I had with You before the world was” (John 17:5).   Before He descended into humanity He shared the Father’s glory.  He was at the right hand of His Father, prior to His incarnation.  He descended into human nature, in order to reveal the Father to men (Mat. 11:27).

 

No human being had EVER entered that "light" - that glory, much less returned to tell of it.

 

Concerning the transfiguration, the COG7D teach that this was a vision - that Moses and Elijah were not literally speaking with Christ. 

 

Concerning the death of Moses, the COG7D point out that Moses was buried, and that the writer of the final portion of Deuteronomy knew of this, and even noted approximately where he was buried.  They say that Moses went up the mountain alone, but later Joshua went up to bury him.  That is how they knew that Moses had died. 

 

Deuteronomy 34:5-6  "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day."

[JoeMo]

"NIV John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-- the Son of Man."

 

This might be a stretch - but could there be a subtle difference between "gone into heaven" and "taken into heaven"?  "I could infer that "going to heaven" means doing so under one's own power; vs. being "taken to heaven" means under God's power.

 

I'm showing my Catholic upbringing here.  This is how Catholics describe the difference between Jesus "ascending into heaven" (under His own power) and Mary being "assumed into heaven" (lifted there by the power of God).

 

Please no rabbit trails informing me that Mary isn't in heaven yet - I know that as an SDA.

[LifeHiscost]

 

Concerning the transfiguration, the COG7D teach that this was a vision - that Moses and Elijah were not literally speaking with Christ. 

 

 

Not sure what the COG7D finds its' authority from but I find it a stretch to assume it was a vision, especially when the meeting with Jesus, Moses and Elijah reflect a powerful encouragement to those still here on earth as to their trust in evidence, not only in translation by Elijah without seeing death, but also of Moses' resurrection after experiencing death and burial on this earth.

For those not seeking Jesus, there would be nothing to be gained, at least so assumed as reported here in this text.

 

31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"....Luke 16

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

No one (then living on the earth), had ever gone up to heaven AND come back to tell of it. 

 

Maybe that's the easiest way to explain it and still retain the translation of Enoch and Elijah. 

 

But what do you do with "No one has seen God at any time." ? 

 

If the pre-incarnate son of God is the "God" that Christ was speaking of - then how do you explain all those appearances during the OT ??

[JoeMo]

Rachel asks:

"If the pre-incarnate son of God is the "God" that Christ was speaking of - then how do you explain all those appearances during the OT ??"

 

Just my opinion; but if I correlate John 1:18 ("No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known") with John 6:46 ("No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.")  I can only conlude that the "God" being spoken of was the Father; not Jesus.  I think the God that visited the OT patriarchs was the being who became Jesus.

[Sojourner]

 

Concerning the death of Moses, the COG7D point out that Moses was buried, and that the writer of the final portion of Deuteronomy knew of this, and even noted approximately where he was buried.  They say that Moses went up the mountain alone, but later Joshua went up to bury him.  That is how they knew that Moses had died. 

 

Deuteronomy 34:5-6  "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day."

 

Hi 8th day, - This passage is found in the book of Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 

 

The dispute is potentially over the body of moses and its location. Some believe it was hidden to prevent the site from becoming a shrine. Yet we see here Moses, suggesting that he was in fact resurrected and likely not from the physical site that he was buried. Upon the moment of the curtain being torn in the sanctuary a number of other saints were also resurrected - Matthew 27:53. 

As for John 3:13, It has to be kept in context, Note that the verse does not end at the point of COG7 but goes on with more to say  ^"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

 

Note that Jesus is the "Son of Man" here and is standing here talking to Nicodemus but is also stating that the Son of Man is "in heaven" at the same time. 

 

Chronologically no one had ascended to heaven and came down from heaven except Jesus. Yet the transfiguration occurs after this and fulfils prophecy at the same time. Matthew 27:53 then happens chronologically after the Transfiguration. 

Jesus is telling Nicodemus who He is. We note that Nicodemus is not repelled by this discovery and goes on to be recorded sticking up for Jesus at the Sanhedrin council in John 7, When Jesus was buried, Nicodemus again appears and provides the embalming materials for the body, materials that came at some great financial cost. John 19:39.

The New Testament is careful not to mention how the disciples nor the others involved in the early church died when they were marytred but for a few exceptions - Stephen for one. Yet church history tells us that Nicodemus was martyred for his faith in Christ. So clearly the words of Christ had enough impact on him that he too became "born again" once he understood what Jesus was saying. 

[8thdaypriest]

Yes - I think the words "who is in heaven", is a big clue.

Yes - I believe that Jesus was telling Nicodemus WHO He is. 

 

“The Son of Man who is in heaven”
        In what sense was Jesus Christ “in heaven” when He spoke these words?  He was not in a different physical location.  We would have to interpret His statement in a spiritual sense.  

        “I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me” (Jn 8:16, Jn. 16:32).  The essence then, of being “in heaven” would be a perfect awareness of the Father’s presence, and the Father’s mind. Christ said that He was “in the bosom of the Father” (Jn. 1:18).  “I am in the Father and the Father in me” (Jn. 14:10-11).  The spirit of His Father indwelt Him fully and “without measure” (Jn 3:34).  In this sense, He was “in heaven”.  No other being - neither angel nor man, had ever ascended to this place of perfect oneness with God.

[LifeHiscost]

Yes - I think the words "who is in heaven", is a big clue.

Yes - I believe that Jesus was telling Nicodemus WHO He is. 

 

“The Son of Man who is in heaven”

        In what sense was Jesus Christ “in heaven” when He spoke these words?  He was not in a different physical location.  We would have to interpret His statement in a spiritual sense.  

        “I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me” (Jn 8:16, Jn. 16:32).  The essence then, of being “in heaven” would be a perfect awareness of the Father’s presence, and the Father’s mind. Christ said that He was “in the bosom of the Father” (Jn. 1:18).  “I am in the Father and the Father in me” (Jn. 14:10-11).  The spirit of His Father indwelt Him fully and “without measure” (Jn 3:34).  In this sense, He was “in heaven”.  No other being - neither angel nor man, had ever ascended to this place of perfect oneness with God.

Perhaps this is another example of the same principle.

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you....Luke 17

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

This observation is for Gregory,but perhaps someone more familiar with the Greek could give an answer.

 

Gregory,

I'm reading a second time thru the book you recommended, "Biblical and Theological Studies on the Trinity". 

On page 16, Robert McIver paraphrases John 3:13 thus,

"Jesus tells Nicodemus that no one will ascend to heaven except the Son of Man, who has come down from heaven." 

 

Is this just a slip up -   "will ascend"  instead of  "has ascended" ?? 

Or does this author know something from the Greek that would help us with our discussion here? 

[LifeHiscost]

This observation is for Gregory,but perhaps someone more familiar with the Greek could give an answer.

 

Gregory,

I'm reading a second time thru the book you recommended, "Biblical and Theological Studies on the Trinity". 

On page 16, Robert McIver paraphrases John 3:13 thus,

"Jesus tells Nicodemus that no one will ascend to heaven except the Son of Man, who has come down from heaven." 

 

Is this just a slip up -   "will ascend"  instead of  "has ascended" ?? 

Or does this author know something from the Greek that would help us with our discussion here? 

I am persuaded to believe even the most innocent cannot necessarily be trusted to tell the truth though they may be acquainted with the Word.

 

http://www.wbur.org/npr/377589757/boy-says-he-didn-t-go-to-heaven-publisher-says-it-will-pull-book

 

 

 

"I did not die. I did not go to Heaven," Alex wrote. He continued, "I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention. When I made the claims that I did, I had never read the Bible. People have profited from lies, and continue to. They should read the Bible, which is enough. The Bible is the only source of truth. Anything written by man cannot be infallible."

He concluded, "Those who market these materials must be called to repent and hold the Bible as enough." 

Boy Says He Didn't Go To Heaven; Publisher Says It Will Pull Book  

January 15, 201510:20 PM ET

 

 

God is Love!   Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

Life, thank you for bringing to our attention the item about Alex.  Your comment to the point that we must trust the Bible and not people is certainly correct.  It is the Bible that is our standard and not people.

 

While you did not comment on the point that I will make, I will add to what you said:  People are often wrong, but that does not mean that they intended to deceive and therefore did not lie.  They simply are wrong. 

 

As to the question that Rachel asked, I have given her my response in a private e-mail, so I see no need to repeat it here.

[Primevil60]

I, being a lifer SDA, have always thought that Elijah, Enoch, and Moses went to heaven.  Currently, I think that is wrong.  Logically it doesn't make sense as they were all taken to heaven before Christ came to this earth.  This in essence minimalizes Christ's risk and sacrifice for us doesn't it?  If Christ failed what would happen, God would throw them out of heaven? 

 

First off it is important to my understanding that "heaven" can have several different meanings.  Heaven as we describe God's throne, heaven as in atmosphere (Genesis 1:20) and heaven as in space (Genesis 1:14-19)

 

Secondly, from what I can tell Elijah WAS STILL ON EARTH after his "ascension".  2 Chronicles 21:12-15 contains a letter written from Elijah to king Jehoram.  This is about a decade after he was taken away.  That is as straightforward as it gets.  Elijah was still on earth. The same applies to Enoch who was also a prophet of God not long before the flood.  The idea is that God took them away to an unknown area after their jobs were complete so they wouldn't be tormented or tortured unnecessarily.  They were saved from death by persecution, but this wasn't an eternal escape from death.  1 Corinthians 15:20-28 tells us that Christ was the "firstfruits" of those to be raised from the dead.  The very next verse says all have died.  As for Moses I don't see anywhere that it says He went to heaven in the account of His death.  He was buried in a secret place by the Lord.  Jude is simply talking about an argument over his body.  It seems like God wanted to keep His body hidden so the Isrealites wouldn't create another idol.  No doubt if they had Moses' remains that is what would happen.  I really cannot combine the idea that Christ died to save us with humans being able to earn there way into heaven before Christ even came down. 

 

If I am way off somewhere I would love to hear it, as this is a new revelation for me.

[Primevil60]

I should add that the mount of transfiguration has to be a vision.  There is no reason for Peter to even recognize them...simply it was a vision that showed Jesus fulfills the "law" and the "prophets" as that is what Moses and Elijah represent to the Jewish people.

[8thdaypriest]

Hello Primevil60,

 

You have to do something with Paul's statement that "death reigned from Adam to Moses" (  ).

SOMETHING concerned with death's "reign" changed with Moses.

 

Death no longer reigned. 

That suggests resurrection to me - a reversal of death.

 

If Jesus Christ had FAILED, the whole of God's creation would have been lost - ultimately to death - not just Enoch, Moses, and Elijah.

All of creation was at stake.

 

I personally believe that God the Father allowed Enoch, Moses, and Elijah to enter Heaven BASED UPON His foreknowledge of Christ's victory.

When Jesus met with Enoch and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, it would have been a very strong message to Jesus that His Father KNEW that He WOULD succeed. 

 

Now - concerning the "letter", Elijah could have been given that message for the king, and have written the letter BEFORE his translation. 

God could have given Elijah foreknowledge concerning that coming need.  Elijah himself was not seen. 

The letter was delivered by someone else. 

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Primevil60]

Actually if you read Romans 5 in context it is talking to death's relationship to the LAW, not to Moses himself.  The law started with Moses, that is why that statement is made.  Verse 13 says "people sinned before the law was given", and then the statement about death and Moses.  The law and sin are the subjects, not death.  Death is simply the stated consequence. There is no reference to Moses going to heaven.  

 

I'm not buying that Elijah wrote that beforehand.  Why not have Elisha write a letter or another "living" prophet?  That doesn't make any sense why he would give a letter for a yet to be king to someone else to deliver in a decade.  Conspiracy theoryish...  

 

Lastly.  Isn't the universe currently and effectively "judging" God through this sinful rebellion on earth?  Just because the Father knew His Son would succeed doesn't necessarily mean He could act proactively on it, after all the entirety of the universe is watching this unfold.  God has willfully tied his hands and given Satan this world for now so everyone can see His way is righteous.  Again, it severely minimizes the consequence of sin, as well as the role of Christ to allow human sinners into heaven beforehand.  I don't think that would go over well with anyone watching.  If God the father can snatch up believers at will without any interjection from Satan then He would have been doing that the entire time.  Not just to those three.

[8thdaypriest]

Actually if you read Romans 5 in context it is talking to death's relationship to the LAW, not to Moses himself.  The law started with Moses, that is why that statement is made.  Verse 13 says "people sinned before the law was given", and then the statement about death and Moses.  The law and sin are the subjects, not death.  Death is simply the stated consequence. There is no reference to Moses going to heaven.  

 

I'm not buying that Elijah wrote that beforehand.  Why not have Elisha write a letter or another "living" prophet?  That doesn't make any sense why he would give a letter for a yet to be king to someone else to deliver in a decade.  Conspiracy theoryish...  

 

Lastly.  Isn't the universe currently and effectively "judging" God through this sinful rebellion on earth?  Just because the Father knew His Son would succeed doesn't necessarily mean He could act proactively on it, after all the entirety of the universe is watching this unfold.  God has willfully tied his hands and given Satan this world for now so everyone can see His way is righteous.  Again, it severely minimizes the consequence of sin, as well as the role of Christ to allow human sinners into heaven beforehand.  I don't think that would go over well with anyone watching.  If God the father can snatch up believers at will without any interjection from Satan then He would have been doing that the entire time.  Not just to those three.

Well - thank you for expressing your opinion Primevil60.  I don't personally agree with your view.  But thanks. 

That's what this forum is for.

[Ted Oplinger]

Actually if you read Romans 5 in context it is talking to death's relationship to the LAW, not to Moses himself.  The law started with Moses, that is why that statement is made.  Verse 13 says "people sinned before the law was given", and then the statement about death and Moses.  The law and sin are the subjects, not death.  Death is simply the stated consequence. There is no reference to Moses going to heaven.  

 

I'm not buying that Elijah wrote that beforehand.  Why not have Elisha write a letter or another "living" prophet?  That doesn't make any sense why he would give a letter for a yet to be king to someone else to deliver in a decade.  Conspiracy theoryish...  

 

Lastly.  Isn't the universe currently and effectively "judging" God through this sinful rebellion on earth?  Just because the Father knew His Son would succeed doesn't necessarily mean He could act proactively on it, after all the entirety of the universe is watching this unfold.  God has willfully tied his hands and given Satan this world for now so everyone can see His way is righteous.  Again, it severely minimizes the consequence of sin, as well as the role of Christ to allow human sinners into heaven beforehand.  I don't think that would go over well with anyone watching.  If God the father can snatch up believers at will without any interjection from Satan then He would have been doing that the entire time.  Not just to those three.

The Law did not "start with Moses". That is a very popular deception currently playing in Christendom at present.

 

The Law always has been, and always will be, Just as the Living God always has been, and always will be. If God's Law did not predate Moses, then how could the angel becoming Satan be convicted as sinning, seeing how the Word itself states sin is the transgression of the Law (Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4)? Likewise, Adam and Eve? It is because wherever God is, there His character is, and thus is present the foundation of His government - His Law.

 

The Law describes God's character, which is the very foundation of His government. As such, there has never been a time when there wasn't Law, for God is the very embodiment of the Law. 

 

Paul was stating in Romans 5 that even though the Law wasn't yet written down on tablets of stone, it still existed, and death - taking advantage of the Law (Romans 7:11-12) - was ever and always the legacy sinful man has inherited, all the way back to Adam. Two tablets of stone at Sinai didn't change that fact. In Romans 5, Paul is setting up his argument that any human who has ever been called to life can only escape sin and death through Jesus Christ - from Adam to Moses to his day, and now down through history to our day today. Man has one inheritance forced upon him by sin; however, one can choose a different inheritance in Jesus Christ.

 

Enoch looked to the same Jesus we do. Moses looked upon Jesus as his Rock of salvation - just as we sing of Christ today. Elijah - in spite of his many passions - was anchored in Christ.

 

All three were taken into heaven by God's grace - not a single one ascended there under their own force of will. They were in heaven on the condition that Christ - their New Adam - would succeed in His mission to reconnect the human race back to God, the source of all life. Their very existence was tied to Christ's. Christ failing to broker again that living connection between Himself and the human race meant all three would ceased to exist in an instant.

 

The saints raised from the grave in Matthew 27:52, 53 were tied to this very fact as well. I don't think these were raised as Lazarus was raised - I believe they were resurrected as was Moses. They are in heaven, ministering under Christ, even today.

 

Indeed, there are at least 24 people (the 24 elders in Revelation 4, 5) who are representing the human race in heaven. Yes, God has submitted Himself to be judged by His sentient creatures. Humans are in heaven, reviewing the same evidence which has been submitted to the angels. Revelation 4:11 will be their verdict.

 

And for all these who have preceded the faithful, not one has been given consent to return and describe for us sinners the glories there, and the truth about God. Why? Exodus 34:29-35 gives us the reason: if sinners could not bear the fading glory found in Moses' face after his being with God for 40 days, what of the glory found in the face of any who would return to earth to testify of God, having been in the presence of God not for 40 days, but for ~2000 years now? Only a few of the living today have the faith to stand in the presence of such reflected glory. Most of us would hide or flee.

 

Blessings,

[LifeHiscost]

.

I don't think these were raised as Lazarus was raised - I believe they were resurrected as was Moses. They are in heaven, ministering under Christ, even today.

This text seems to indicate that fact.

 

…7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?…Ephesian 4  Emphasis theirs' LHC

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

Ted posted: The saints raised from the grave in Matthew 27:52, 53 were tied to this very fact as well. I don't think these were raised as Lazarus was raised - I believe they were resurrected as was Moses. They are in heaven, ministering under Christ, even today.

 

Indeed, there are at least 24 people (the 24 elders in Revelation 4, 5) who are representing the human race in heaven. Yes, God has submitted Himself to be judged by His sentient creatures. Humans are in heaven, reviewing the same evidence which has been submitted to the angels. Revelation 4:11 will be their verdict.

 

Rachel adds:  King David divided the priesthood into 24 "courses" (1 Chron. Cpt 24-25).  There were too many of them to minister in the Temple - all at the same time.  They took turns, coming up to the Temple in a regular schedule of 2 weeks at a time.  On the Feast Days, all of the priests would be present to help with all the sacrifices. 

 

So - it's probable that there are far more than just 24 Elders ministering in Heaven now, "redeemed" out of "every tribe and tongue and people and nation". 

 

 

[Primevil60]

The Law did not "start with Moses". That is a very popular deception currently playing in Christendom at present.

 

The Law always has been, and always will be, Just as the Living God always has been, and always will be. If God's Law did not predate Moses, then how could the angel becoming Satan be convicted as sinning, seeing how the Word itself states sin is the transgression of the Law (Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4)? Likewise, Adam and Eve? It is because wherever God is, there His character is, and thus is present the foundation of His government - His Law.

 

The Law describes God's character, which is the very foundation of His government. As such, there has never been a time when there wasn't Law, for God is the very embodiment of the Law. 

 

Paul was stating in Romans 5 that even though the Law wasn't yet written down on tablets of stone, it still existed, and death - taking advantage of the Law (Romans 7:11-12) - was ever and always the legacy sinful man has inherited, all the way back to Adam. Two tablets of stone at Sinai didn't change that fact. In Romans 5, Paul is setting up his argument that any human who has ever been called to life can only escape sin and death through Jesus Christ - from Adam to Moses to his day, and now down through history to our day today. Man has one inheritance forced upon him by sin; however, one can choose a different inheritance in Jesus Christ.

 

Enoch looked to the same Jesus we do. Moses looked upon Jesus as his Rock of salvation - just as we sing of Christ today. Elijah - in spite of his many passions - was anchored in Christ.

 

All three were taken into heaven by God's grace - not a single one ascended there under their own force of will. They were in heaven on the condition that Christ - their New Adam - would succeed in His mission to reconnect the human race back to God, the source of all life. Their very existence was tied to Christ's. Christ failing to broker again that living connection between Himself and the human race meant all three would ceased to exist in an instant.

 

The saints raised from the grave in Matthew 27:52, 53 were tied to this very fact as well. I don't think these were raised as Lazarus was raised - I believe they were resurrected as was Moses. They are in heaven, ministering under Christ, even today.

 

Indeed, there are at least 24 people (the 24 elders in Revelation 4, 5) who are representing the human race in heaven. Yes, God has submitted Himself to be judged by His sentient creatures. Humans are in heaven, reviewing the same evidence which has been submitted to the angels. Revelation 4:11 will be their verdict.

 

And for all these who have preceded the faithful, not one has been given consent to return and describe for us sinners the glories there, and the truth about God. Why? Exodus 34:29-35 gives us the reason: if sinners could not bear the fading glory found in Moses' face after his being with God for 40 days, what of the glory found in the face of any who would return to earth to testify of God, having been in the presence of God not for 40 days, but for ~2000 years now? Only a few of the living today have the faith to stand in the presence of such reflected glory. Most of us would hide or flee.

 

Blessings,

The law was written down at Moses because the Israelites were not at the spiritual level of Abraham.  They were like spiritual children.  Which is exactly what that verse is talking about.  So yes, the law started at Moses.  If the Israelites were able to follow God without the 10 commandments for guidance then God would not have given them as it would have been common practice already.   The principals behind the law were in place as they are simply realities of the universe, but the law was not given until Moses.

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, it is a possibility.   Ellen White makes it very clear she believes that Elijah went to God' throne (which actually seems to be in direct contradiction with John 1:18). Guess more study is needed!