John 3:13 "no one has ascended"

[Ted Oplinger]

Primevil60,

 

Stating that the Law "started" at Moses would feed the falsehood currently being indulged by Christendom - that the Law is only Mosaic and meant only for the Jews. If the Law was "written down at Mt. Sinai"...it is implied already existed as a code of holiness/righteousness. John 1:17 backs this up, as Jesus says the Law was "given through Moses"...indicating the Law was already present before Mt. Sinai. Moses was given on tablets of stone something already in existence. This also would seem to imply prior knowledge by those more spiritually mature before Mt. Sinai. Looking at what Paul wrote in Romans, in the context of the whole book of Romans, the presence and permanence of the Law prior to Sinai is a given fact with Paul.

 

How would Elijah being brought to the throne of God be a contradiction of John 1:18? Elijah was translated by grace - this indicates 1 Corinthians 15:53 is in play - his mortal, perishable body was exchanged for the immortal, imperishable glorified body. How then could he not see God and live? Jesus is speaking to those who have not gone through this exchange - no mortal man can see God and live. That is precisely what Christ told Moses Exodus 33:18-23...yet Moses was raised and serves this same God to this day. First through the mirror, dimly, then face-to-face - 1 Corinthians 13:12.

 

Blessings,

[Primevil60]

Why wasn't the "law" given to Adam or Abraham?  Because they already understood what worshiping God entailed.  The Isrealites did not.  That is why the law was given. Like I said before the law given to Moses is based on universal realities.  Those precepts were already in place, and have universal application.  By me saying the law started at Moses I do not mean right and wrong were arbitrarily created just for the Isrealites.  What I do mean is that the revelation of the law to humanity (via the ten commandments) started at Moses out of necessity. God's chosen had strayed so far away they were now unfamiliar with the character of God and needed it spelled out for them.

 

How can you say that John 1:18 doesn't apply to Elijah or Enoch?  After all, they were both men, they were both sinners, they were both born mortal.  John 1:18 says "no one has ever seen God except Me".  John 3:13 says "no man has ascended into Heaven except Me".  The more I read, the more it seems supporting evidence of this idea is extra biblical.  In fact the only verse I can find that seems to support this idea is Hebrews 11:5.  But if you read the rest of the chapter Paul makes it clear in verse 13 and 39 that all of those mentioned (Enoch and Elijah included) died without receiving the promise. We have taken the word "translated" and made it apply to Heaven when really it just means to remove or transfer.  Unfortunately, we just aren't told where anywhere in scripture.

[8thdaypriest]

I have read through an abundance of commentaries on line and other, concerning the "writing" by Elijah the prophet, which was delivered to Jehoram, King of Judah.  (2 Chron. 21:12)

 

Most of the commentaries pointed out that this was NOT a "letter" as such.  It was a writing - a prophecy, which Elijah could have received from the LORD and written down to be delivered to the King at a future point, when it would have the greatest effect.

 

King Jehoram - reading a prophecy by Elijah (now gone 7 years) would have reacted as one receiving a message straight from heaven.

It would have had a much greater effect, than simply receiving a warning from a living prophet. 

[8thdaypriest]

If Moses and Elijah were DEAD at the time of the transfiguration, then what was Jesus doing - talking with dead people!!

That was a death penalty offense - according to the Law.

 

And if this was simply a "vision" - then why did He take three witnesses with Him - Peter, James, and John. 

There is not an incidence in Scripture of four men, simultaneously having the SAME VISION.

 

I think that Moses and Elijah were ALIVE - and are still alive.

[Primevil60]

Why did the disciples not hear the conversation if it was so important to take them with Him?  Maybe it wasn't about the conversation, maybe it was about the symbolism of those two.  How did they recognize Moses and Elijah immediately without any introductions?  Why did God the Father interrupt the conversation and that is the only thing the disciples heard?  Didn't seem like the conversation was the important part of this meeting.  Why did Moses and Elijah disappear immediately after God spoke and never even acknowledged the disciples were there?  If this was a real conversation these questions need to be addressed.

 

If you look at Matthew 16 you can see some context.  The disciples are beginning to realize that a militaristic "Messiah" might not be what Jesus came to do, and He explicitly refers to His coming death which flies in the face of what they assume about the coming Messiah.  Immediately after this is the transfiguration.  That seems to me it was for the disciples benefit, not Jesus.  Specifically Peter who did not fully comprehend Jesus's purpose.  There is no other reason given in scripture for this event except the context surrounding it.  Look at Matthew 17:10-13.  This shows that the public was misinformed about expecting Elijah HIMSELF to come back and that simply a man that Elijah represents (a prophet in John the Baptist) was going to precede the Messiah.  The transfiguration event cements the true mission and authority of Christ into the mind of His most dedicated disciples.  It has nothing to do with Moses and Elijah the actual people.  It has everything to do with what they represent to the Jews.

[Kevin H]

Jesus was basically telling Nicodemus that while he was spending a lot of time speculating on heaven that he was needed to help people around him here on earth. That the discussions were only speculation since we don't have people who have ascended up to come back to teach us. It is only Jesus who has come down with a message about heaven and that message is that God so loved the world that he gave...

 

There was a comment earlier, but now can't find about questioning Moses and Elijah being able to go to heaven. We have to remember that the whole universe in involved. The angels and unfallen worlds made their choice just before God said "Let there be light" but they did not close their probation until the cross. Their salvation was just as tentative as Moses' and Elijah's and Enoch's. If Jesus failed they would not have faced a firing squad of angles, but the entire universe would have seen that Lucifer was right, that God did not keep the law of self sacrificing love and it would have proved that God was not to be trusted and it would have broken the relationship between God and the created  and destroyed the whole universe.  

[JoeMo]

I'm on-board with Rachel on this one.

 

"For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain." (2 Peter 1:16-18)

 

This certainly doesn't sound like a vision to me - it sounds like an eyewitness account of an actual event.  Moses and Elijah were both ALIVE and PRESENT at the transfiguration - an actual even - not a vision.  Maybe this is why Jesus had 3 witnesses. See 2 Cor. 3:1; Matt. 18:16, 1 Timothy 5:19, and Hebrews 10:28 for examples of this principle.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

very interesting thread.

 

I personally don't have a problem believing that Moses and Elijah did, in fact, ascend to heaven, and that both spoke to Jesus at the transfiguration.  

 

Is it necessarily so, that Elijah and Moses saw God face to face when they were taken to heaven?

[LifeHiscost]

I doubt if it's a salvational issue but if so it would seem to me to be before the resurrection or translation.

 

12One day Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Take these people up to the Promised Land.’ But you haven’t told me whom you will send with me. You have told me, ‘I know you by name, and I look favorably on you.’ 13If it is true that you look favorably on me, let me know your ways so I may understand you more fully and continue to enjoy your favor. And remember that this nation is your very own people.”

14The Lord replied, “I will personally go with you, Moses, and I will give you rest—everything will be fine for you.”

15Then Moses said, “If you don’t personally go with us, don’t make us leave this place. 16How will anyone know that you look favorably on me—on me and on your people—if you don’t go with us? For your presence among us sets your people and me apart from all other people on the earth.”

17The Lord replied to Moses, “I will indeed do what you have asked, for I look favorably on you, and I know you by name.”

18Moses responded, “Then show me your glorious presence.”

19The Lord replied, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, Yahweh,^c before you. For I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose. 20But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21The Lord continued, “Look, stand near me on this rock. 22As my glorious presence passes by, I will hide you in the crevice of the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and let you see me from behind. But my face will not be seen.”... Exodus 33

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Primevil60]

JoeMo so it isn't a vision because the disciples saw and heard things during this event?  Isn't that what a vision is? 

[JoeMo]

Most visions seem to be personal experiences by a single person.  For example, when Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, He was the only one who saw Jesus and understood what He said.  It was just the sound of thunder to everyone else.  Peter seemed to think it was real.  I don't think it's a salvational issue on whether one believes it was for real or just a vision. Even if it was a vision, visions from God are always visions of reality - be it a past, present, or future reality. Only man's ( or woman's) interpretation of such visions may be faulty.

[8thdaypriest]

So - we agree that Jesus COULD NOT have been talking with DEAD persons.

So - Either Moses and Elijah were alive.  OR  This was a "vision".

 

Is there another "vision" recorded in Scripture, where the one receiving the "vision" heard or interacted with DEAD persons? 

I can't think of one. 

 

If the LORD had given such a vision (to include interaction with dead persons) it would have confused the people concerning His absolute command, that they NOT interact with "familiar spirits", and execute anyone who did, or claimed to. 

 

It's no wonder Jesus told the disciples NOT to tell anyone of what they had seen.  The Jews would have reject Him, and probably stoned Him just because he claimed to speak to the DEAD. 

[JoeMo]

"Is there another "vision" recorded in Scripture, where the one receiving the "vision" heard or interacted with DEAD persons? "

 

There is the "vision" that King Saul had of Samuel's departed spirit when he visited to witch of Endor, but that was more of a deceptive illusion than a vision.  Saul was actually interacting with a demon masquerading as Samuel.

[8thdaypriest]

Prayers to the saints, like Mary, or Joseph, or St. Christopher, etc. etc.

 

My objection is the same.  These people ARE DEAD - therefore - any communication with them is FORBIDDEN by the LORD. 

[Primevil60]

The disciples had no communication with them.  No words exchanged, not even an acknowledgement from Moses and Elijah that the disciples were there.  And if you want to get that technical...Jesus Himself told a parable full of false theology in Luke 16.  And boy has that parable confused millions of christians since on the state of the dead.

[8thdaypriest]

Luke 16:  The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

 

1.  It was a parable! 

    Matthew 13:34  “Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.” (NIV)

        The Jewish people had a long tradition of stories called “Midrash.” These stories were handed down through generations.  They illustrated or clarified the lessons of Scripture.  Everyone understood that these stories were not always to be taken literally.  Heaven and Hell are not within shouting distance. People in Heaven cannot see people in Hell suffering.

 

There was no "glory" seen by anyone, during the telling of this parable.  There was no "voice from Heaven".

 

2.  Christ was predicting the hardness of the Jewish leaders (represented by the rich man and his brothers).  They won’t be convinced, even if “one rose from the dead”.  And - true to the parable, the leaders were not convinced after Lazarus and then Christ Himself “rose from the dead.”  

    “Father Abraham, please send someone to warn my five brothers,” the rich Jew pleaded.
    Judah (father of the Jews) did indeed have five full-blood brothers.  They were all sons of Leah. Their names were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar and Zebulun (Genesis 29-30).

    And Annas - the Roman appointed high priest, had five sons, (and one son-in-law, Caiaphas) all of whom served as the high priest.  It’s no wonder they killed Him, with parables like that.

 

3.   The “rich man” represented the Jewish leaders who thought themselves “rich” in the things of God.  They believed that they would go to the “bosom of Abraham” at death,  just because they were Jews - and “righteous” Jews at that (so they thought). 

    The poor beggar Lazarus, sitting outside the gate, represented the Gentiles, who were “outside” of the kingdom, in the eyes of first century Jews. They were ceremonially “unclean,” and the beggar in the story was covered with sores - making him literally unclean.

 

The story was NOT teaching doctrine about the after-life. 
 

[Primevil60]

You are absolutely right, and that is my point.  God teaches us where we are.  He uses a Hellenistic story to convey truths about God because that is what the Jews in His day understand.  He used a cultural (and pagan) sacrificial ritual with Abraham to convey His lasting covenant with Him (Genesis 15) because that is what Abraham understands.  And He used Moses and Elijah for the disciples at the transfiguration because THAT is the context they understand the Messiah in...the law and the prophets.  There is no other reason for their appearance.

[Primevil60]

I wonder what the Israelites believed about this?  Did they believe that Elijah was going to be resurrected before the Messiah or did they believe he was still alive somewhere?  I can't really find any info on that.  That could be some useful information.

[8thdaypriest]

God absolutely FORBID any communication with the DEAD - regardless of circumstances.

There is NO WAY God the Father would have sent a vision to the 3 disciples, in which Jesus was communicating with THE DEAD.

 

Those disciples would immediately have rejected Jesus as a sorcerer.

If Jesus was talking with the DEAD (whether in vision or not), then He was committing sin the worst kind of sin, and he was NOT the Messiah.

[8thdaypriest]

Has anyone thought about what Enoch represents?

 

Moses was a TYPE of those who die and are resurrected.

Elijah is a TYPE of those who are "caught up" to meet Jesus in the clouds.

 

What about Enoch??

 

I believe Enoch is a TYPE of those who will be invited into the Kingdom, from those raised at the 8th millennium (from the rest of the dead).

[LifeHiscost]

Has anyone thought about what Enoch represents?

 

Moses was a TYPE of those who die and are resurrected.

Elijah is a TYPE of those who are "caught up" to meet Jesus in the clouds.

 

What about Enoch??

 

I believe Enoch is a TYPE of those who will be invited into the Kingdom, from those raised at the 8th millennium (from the rest of the dead).

I'm satisfied he typifies  those who are alive and remain at the second coming of Jesus to claim His own.

 

…23So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him....Genesis 5

 

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep....1 Thess 4

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

I'm satisfied he typifies  those who are alive and remain at the second coming of Jesus to claim His own.

 

…23So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him....Genesis 5

 

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep....1 Thess 4

 

What scripture texts refer to any other than those who are raised to meet the 2nd death, at the end of the 7th millennium?

 

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.....Revelation 20

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Primevil60]

8thdaypriest what about Ezekiel 37.  That was a vision of the dead, and he was instructed to prophesy to them.   You said it's absolutely forbidden and God would never do such a thing, yet there it is in vision.

[8thdaypriest]

8thdaypriest what about Ezekiel 37.  That was a vision of the dead, and he was instructed to prophesy to them.   You said it's absolutely forbidden and God would never do such a thing, yet there it is in vision.

Ezekiel 37 is about the resurrection of the "whole house of Israel" - which I believe will be all of the redeemed at the Second Coming. 

 

This is Ezekiel, told to "prophesy to these bones". 

His prophesy to "the bones" is that the LORD will one day resurrect them to life.

 

Ezekiel is NOT speaking to any SPECIFIC MAN OR WOMAN - who was dead at the time.

He is speaking to "bones" which REPRESENT the "whole house of Israel". 

 

The scene is much different from a seance.

[Primevil60]

See now you are trying to modify your argument.  You said it's wrong under ANY circumstances.  But in your last post you said it doesn't matter since the bones are simply a representation.  Well there you go.  Since that's all Moses and Elijah are I guess we are in the clear I wouldn't exactly call the mount of transfiguration a seance either.