John 3:13 "no one has ascended"

[JoeMo]

The "rest of the dead" is the same group mentioned in Rev 19:21:

 

NKJ Revelation 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh

 

They were slain just before the start of the millennium and were resurrected after the millennium.

 

No, there's no biblical account of any wicked resurrected at the beginning of the millennium. The second death is at the end of the millennium, not at its beginning.

 

 

There's no biblical account of a 3rd death, hence, no double jeopardy.

Didn't you say that ""This is why the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER the 2nd Coming when all - both righteous and wicked - had been resurrected. With all people born on this planet present."?  So that would mean all of the wicked and righteous from all ages would be resurrected at the 2nd coming.  So which is it?  It cant be both.

[JoeMo]

Scuba asks:

"Show me what verse Jude is referring to in the OT? "

I can't do it, Scuba - it doesn't exist in the OT; except possibly in Daniel 12.  Like I said before, it's reasonable to challenge whether or not Michael was the pre-existent Christ.  However, IMHO it is not reasonable to challenge whether or not Christ had a pre-existence.  I believe the Bible is crystal clear in several places that He did.  In the interest of following the advice in Titus 3:9, I, like 8thdaypriest, think we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 

[Scuba]

Scuba asks:

"Show me what verse Jude is referring to in the OT? "

I can't do it, Scuba - it doesn't exist in the OT; except possibly in Daniel 12.  Like I said before, it's reasonable to challenge whether or not Michael was the pre-existent Christ.  However, IMHO it is not reasonable to challenge whether or not Christ had a pre-existence.  I believe the Bible is crystal clear in several places that He did.  In the interest of following the advice in Titus 3:9, I, like 8thdaypriest, think we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

 

There is no verse that says Moses was raised from the dead because he wasn't. Moses died and was buried. The verses that Jude is referring to is Zechariah 3 and it's not referring to the body of Moses, but rather, the (soma) servant of Moses. Joshua was a high priest and the priesthood came through Moses making them Moses' servants.

 

Exodus 24:13 So Moses arose with Joshua his servant, and Moses went up to the mountain of God.

[Scuba]

body of Christ = congregation of followers of Christ

 

body of Moses = congregation of followers of Moses

 

Note the parallels:

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?  (Rom 6:3)

 

compare to

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (1 Cor 10:1-2)

If those "baptised into Christ" are part of the "body of Christ", then could it also be said that those "baptised unto Moses" are part of the "body of Moses"?

In other words, could the dispute recorded in Jude 9 be about Satan's accusations against Israel?

 

- joe

The only thing is that the body of Christ are many and Zechariah 3, of which Jude is referring to, is about one person, Joshua the high priest.

[Samie]

Didn't you say that ""This is why the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER the 2nd Coming when all - both righteous and wicked - had been resurrected. With all people born on this planet present."?  So that would mean all of the wicked and righteous from all ages would be resurrected at the 2nd coming.  So which is it?  It cant be both.

The wicked and the righteous from all ages will be resurrected at the 2nd Coming to each receive their own rewards .  As their reward, the righteous will inherit life eternal and ushered into the heavenly portals.  As their reward, all wicked will suffer the 7 last plagues and all slain at its culmination. This is their first death. The millennium then takes place and at its end the wicked will again be resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire which is their 2nd death.

[JoeMo]

Samie I'm still confused by what you're saying.  The resurrected wicked will have already died once.  If they are again wiped out by the 7 last plagues, that's death No. 2.  If they are resurrected again at the end of the millenium, that's death No. 3.

Suffice it to say I don't believe as you do.

[8thdaypriest]

I've always thought of the "first" death as a type of death.

It's physical death.

A person can die physical death more than once.  Like Lazarus, and Jarius Daughter, and Dorcas, and Eutychus, and the lad that Elisha raised.  

 

The "second death" is annihilation death. 

A person can only die that TYPE of death once.  'Cause there is no coming back from that TYPE of death. 

[JoeMo]

I've always thought of the "first" death as a type of death.

It's physical death.

A person can die physical death more than once.  Like Lazarus, and Jarius Daughter, and Dorcas, and Eutychus, and the lad that Elisha raised.  

 

The "second death" is annihilation death. 

A person can only die that TYPE of death once.  'Cause there is no coming back from that TYPE of death. 

OK, THAT I can understand.  Thanks for the clarification, Rachel!

[8thdaypriest]

This is how I understand it.  It's just my opinion.

 

The wicked who come up at the Second Coming, will come up as mortal physical people.

They will die the FIRST type of death - again. 

And BEFORE they die, they will face Jesus for judgment. 

 

But they are NOT YET dead - to God.

Because HE has not yet blotted out HIS MEMORY of them.

 

The thing that always got me to thinking, was the timing of the last judgment event

If you read thru Revelation 20.

1.  The dragon/devil/serpent/Satan is bound for 1000 years.  (We know this happens ON Yom Kippur - at the Second Coming.)

2.  Then there is a judgment, of people who live and reign with Christ 1000 years. (Rev. 20:4)

3.  THEN - when the 1000 years are over, there is a resurrection of "the rest of the dead".

4.  At the SAME TIME (as the resurrection of "the rest of the dead") Satan is released to deceive the nations - once again.

5.  Satan gathers his forces from "the nations in the 4 corners of the earth".

6.  They attack - and LOOSE big time.  The are consumed by the fire of God. 

7.  And Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire - the same one where the Beast and the false prophet were thrown back at the SC.

8.  THEN - John sees the "Great White Throne Judgment".  So it's AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle.

9.  John sees "the dead" standing before God.  (They are NOT ALIVE.  They are physically DEAD.  There is no THIRD RESURRECTION.)

10. The Books are opened.  Even the Book of Life is opened again. 

Why open the Books again, if all the wicked are DEAD? 

BECAUSE - they are only physically dead.  To God they are NOT finally DEAD. 

 

11. THEN - after this final great white throne judgment,

the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire". 

 

I believe that God will finally destroy HIS OWN MEMORY of them, so that they cannot ever be resurrected AGAIN. 

It is God's download from their minds, that will be destroyed. 

The wicked themselves are already physically DEAD - at this point. 

[8thdaypriest]

I'm gonna ask the question again. 

What is the evidence - from Scripture - that "the rest of the dead" are the Hordes of Gog? 

Where is the evidence that "the rest of the dead" are solely "the wicked" from the 6000 years of earth's history?

 

I believe there is a LOT of evidence that "the rest of the dead" will be those who died without enough information, or maturity to choose Christ as their LORD. 

 

I would really like to hear from traditional Adventists on this one. 

I already understand what Samie is saying, and I do NOT AGREE with his take on this. 

[Samie]

Samie I'm still confused by what you're saying.  The resurrected wicked will have already died once.  If they are again wiped out by the 7 last plagues, that's death No. 2.  If they are resurrected again at the end of the millenium, that's death No. 3.

Suffice it to say I don't believe as you do.

I respect your decision.

 

You could have missed my posts where our Savior said the righteous will never taste death. Again, the death people currently experience now, both righteous and wicked, is, in the eyes of our Savior, but a sleep, and hence not to be counted as the first death. So, in line with the Savior's view of death, only the wicked will experience death: death in the 7 last plagues which is the first death, and death in the lake of fire which is the second death.

[8thdaypriest]

I respect your decision.

 

You could have missed my posts where our Savior said the righteous will never taste death. Again, the death people currently experience now, both righteous and wicked, is, in the eyes of our Savior, but a sleep, and hence not to be counted as the first death. So, in line with the Savior's view of death, only the wicked will experience death: death in the 7 last plagues which is the first death, and death in the lake of fire which is the second death.

The seven last plagues are said to be the "full wrath of God". 

Wrath is punishment.  It's NOT for teaching. 

And you believe that ONLY the wicked will experience this death - at the Second Coming.

 

So that's punishment #1.

 

Then the LORD will wake them up again, to judge them again, and then burn them up again. 

And you believe THIS will be Gog/Magog.

And you believe that GogMagog Battle will be the SAME as "the lake of fire which is the second death".  Right?

 

Sounds like punishment #2. 

 

Why would Jesus resurrect them to judge them, and punish them - TWICE? 

Once is not enough??

 

See - I do NOT believe that Gog/Magog IS the "lake of fire".

The Great White Throne Judgment comes AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle.

The Lake of Fire comes AFTER that Judgment.