John 3:13 "no one has ascended"

March 1, 2015

Primevil60,

I want to thank you. The discussion here has helped me to strengthen my "Where Are The Dead?" study at my website.

I just finished revising it.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

March 2, 2015

It's been fun, I've learned a lot from you guys, but unfortunately not enough to make a personal decision on this issue yet . Guess it's one of those things I'll put on the back burner for a while.

March 6, 2015

It's been fun, I've learned a lot from you guys, but unfortunately not enough to make a personal decision on this issue yet . Guess it's one of those things I'll put on the back burner for a while.

Perhaps your key word is "yet". There is a danger if there is an underlying willingness to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

24But some days later Felix arrived with Drusilla, his wife who was a Jewess, and sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus. 25But as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, "Go away for the present, and when I find time I will summon you."…Acts 24

There is no biblical evidence Felix ever followed up with Paul.

1And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain-- 2for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU." Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION "....2 Corinthians 6 Emphasis theirs' LHC

Will be praying for you. Keep looking up! :prayer:

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

March 6, 2015

I don't believe that one's position - concerning whether or not there were any human beings in Heaven before Christ came - affects one's salvation.

It's just one of those doctrinal positions that we discuss.

March 14, 2015

You have to do something with Paul's statement that "death reigned from Adam to Moses" ( ).

SOMETHING concerned with death's "reign" changed with Moses.

Death no longer reigned.

That suggests resurrection to me - a reversal of death.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

The main point in Romans 5:13-15 is that the Law didn't bring death, sin did. Sometimes the Bible uses the name, Moses, to refer to the Law. It's not that death changed after Moses, sin still brings death. Death reigned from Adam until the Law so the Law has nothing to do with bringing death since death reigned before the Law.

March 14, 2015

Death reigned from Adam until the Law so the Law has nothing to do with bringing death since death reigned before the Law.

The death that reigned from Adam until Moses and the giving of the law was the first death. Why? Because the law had not been legally posted. As Paul states, where there is no law neither is there any transgression.

All of us, even after the posting of the law, die because we share Adam's fallen life. Hence Adam's life brings nothing but sin & death.

Rejection of the gospel brings the second death. Rejection of Christ's righteousness in place of our unrighteousness brings the curse. Why? Because everyone who ultimately rejects Christ remains under law. Those who remain under law will answer to that law in the judgment.

Those who have placed their faith in Christ will be defended by the doing & dying of Christ. They are complete in Christ and in Him they stand positively righteous before God's law.

March 15, 2015

They are complete in Christ and in Him they stand positively righteous before God's law.

And the individual who has accepted Jesus' doing and dying is dying to self as a new creation brought about as a result of the indwelling of Christ through His Holy Spirit.

…4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing....John 15

13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.....Philippians 4

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

March 15, 2015

The death that reigned from Adam until Moses and the giving of the law was the first death. Why? Because the law had not been legally posted.

. . .

Abraham lived between Adam and Moses. Did he die the first death?

NKJ John 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

March 15, 2015

I believe that those whose names remain written in the book of life, had not tasted and will not taste death. The "death" people experience now is but "sleep" in the eyes of the Savior.

March 15, 2015

Abraham lived between Adam and Moses. Did he die the first death?

NKJ John 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

John 11:25-26 “Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?’”

You “shall never die” but if you do die, you will live again.

That’s confusing!

Thousands of believers have died - over the last two thousand years.

They DIE physically - which is only a "sleep".

But they will NEVER DIE the "second death" which is permanent.

I agree that the only way to understand Jesus statement in John 11:26, is to understand that He spoke of TWO TYPES of death.

Abraham is NOT specifically mentioned as being translated or resurrected - unless He was one of "the saints" resurrected just after Jesus himself was resurrected by His Father.

So one would assume that Abraham died the first death. He will NOT die the "second death".

March 15, 2015

The death that reigned from Adam until Moses and the giving of the law was the first death.

I agree Robert.

I believe that Moses was the first to be released from physical death. I believe that Moses was resurrected.

March 15, 2015

I agree Robert.

I believe that Moses was the first to be released from physical death. I believe that Moses was resurrected.

That sounds nice but you have no Scripture to support Moses being resurrected before Jesus. As a matter of fact it goes against God's plan.

March 15, 2015

9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.…Jude 1

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

March 15, 2015

9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.…Jude 1

God is Love! Jesus saves!

Show me where that took place in the OT?

March 16, 2015

1. Show me where that took place in the OT?

2. That sounds nice but you have no Scripture to support Moses being resurrected before Jesus. As a matter of fact it goes against God's plan.

1. It's documented in the NT. Is Jude lying (or mistaken)?

2. I believe that Moses' appearance at the transfiguration was the real deal; not a "vision". Peter says that they were eyewitnesses; and never implies that it was a "vision". That's enough evidence for me. Not saying you're wrong; just saying our opinions differ.

March 16, 2015

Jesus EXPLICITLY said that those who are in Him will NEVER taste death. I believe Him.

If there is a 2nd death, there must necessarily be a 1st death. And since Jesus said those who believe in Him shall never die, both the 1st and 2nd deaths are for the unrighteous only.

It follows that the physical death people - good or bad - experience at the expiry of their lifetime is not the 1st death, because if it is then the righteous would have experienced death, and this is not in accord with the statement of our Lord. Physical death now, in the eyes of our Savior, is but a sleep. It is not the 1st death.

The 1st death that precedes the 2nd death is death of the wicked in the 7 last plagues which culminate in the Battle of Armageddon. It is only the wicked that will experience death, both the 1st and the 2nd.

March 16, 2015

This is why the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER the 2nd Coming when all - both righteous and wicked - had been resurrected. With all people born on this planet present - the resurrected throng and with those who remained alive until the 2nd Coming - every eye will see Jesus come in the clouds of heaven (Rev 1:7), each one ready to receive his own reward according to what he has done:

KJV Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

NAS Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

March 16, 2015

Jesus EXPLICITLY said that those who are in Him will NEVER taste death. I believe Him.

If there is a 2nd death, there must necessarily be a 1st death. And since Jesus said those who believe in Him shall never die, both the 1st and 2nd deaths are for the unrighteous only.

It follows that the physical death people - good or bad - experience at the expiry of their lifetime is not the 1st death, because if it is then the righteous would have experienced death, and this is not in accord with the statement of our Lord. Physical death now, in the eyes of our Savior, is but a sleep. It is not the 1st death.

The 1st death that precedes the 2nd death is death of the wicked in the 7 last plagues which culminate in the Battle of Armageddon. It is only the wicked that will experience death, both the 1st and the 2nd.

How does that equate with Jesus' response to a comment made by one of the disciples when Lazarus was sick and died.?

12The disciples said, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will soon get better!” 13They thought Jesus meant Lazarus was simply sleeping, but Jesus meant Lazarus had died.

14So he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15And for your sakes, I’m glad I wasn’t there, for now you will really believe. Come, let’s go see him.”

16Thomas, nicknamed the Twin,^c said to his fellow disciples, “Let’s go, too—and die with Jesus.”

17When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days. 18Bethany was only a few miles^d down the road from Jerusalem, 19and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 20When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 21Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask.”

23Jesus told her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24“Yes,” Martha said, “he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day.”

25Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life.^e Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. 26Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she told him. “I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God.” 28Then she returned to Mary. She called Mary aside from the mourners and told her, “The Teacher is here and wants to see you.” 29So Mary immediately went to him.

30Jesus had stayed outside the village, at the place where Martha met him. 31When the people who were at the house consoling Mary saw her leave so hastily, they assumed she was going to Lazarus’s grave to weep. So they followed her there. 32When Mary arrived and saw Jesus, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him,^f and he was deeply troubled. 34“Where have you put him?” he asked them.

They told him, “Lord, come and see.” 35Then Jesus wept. 36The people who were standing nearby said, “See how much he loved him!” 37But some said, “This man healed a blind man. Couldn’t he have kept Lazarus from dying?”

38Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance. 39“Roll the stone aside,” Jesus told them.

But Martha, the dead man’s sister, protested, “Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible.”

40Jesus responded, “Didn’t I tell you that you would see God’s glory if you believe?” 41So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me. 42You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.” 43Then Jesus shouted, “Lazarus, come out!” 44And the dead man came out, his hands and feet bound in graveclothes, his face wrapped in a headcloth. Jesus told them, “Unwrap him and let him go!”....John 11

This points out that sometimes Jesus would speak about things that will come to pass as if they already are true, a result of having power He is confident of, without equivocation. This is true of our eternal life that starts as soon as receiving Jesus as Savior, even though this mortal body may be laid to rest sometime in the future.

…11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.....1 John 5

God is Love! Jesus saves! :smiley:

March 16, 2015

How does that equate with Jesus' response to a comment made by one of the disciples when Lazarus was sick and died.?

. . .

It equates squarely.

1. First statement: Lazarus is asleep. John 11:11

2. Second statement: Lazarus is dead. John 11:14

The latter statement must not be held as in conflict with His former statement. They are both true, being statements of our Lord and Savior in Whose mouth was found no guile (1 Pet 2:22). The death of Lazarus - as are people's death now - in the Savior's eyes is but a sleep.

KJV Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death.

March 16, 2015

Samie says:

"This is why the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER the 2nd Coming when all - both righteous and wicked - had been resurrected. With all people born on this planet present."

Really? Are all those who have done wickedly destroyed in the 7 last plagues? Who are the "rest of the dead" who are not resurrected until after the millennium? Are they the wicked who were resurrected at the beginning of the millennium who suffered the second death at that time? Are they to experience another judgement and a 3rd death? Seems like double jeopardy to me - being punished twice for the same crime.

I'll go with the 8th day theory proffered elsewhere on CA (for now, at least). I reserve the right to change my mind.

March 16, 2015

Samie says:

"This is why the 7 last plagues will be poured out AFTER the 2nd Coming when all - both righteous and wicked - had been resurrected. With all people born on this planet present."

Really? Are all those who have done wickedly destroyed in the 7 last plagues? Who are the "rest of the dead" who are not resurrected until after the millennium?

The "rest of the dead" is the same group mentioned in Rev 19:21:

NKJ Revelation 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh

They were slain just before the start of the millennium and were resurrected after the millennium.

Are they the wicked who were resurrected at the beginning of the millennium who suffered the second death at that time?

No, there's no biblical account of any wicked resurrected at the beginning of the millennium. The second death is at the end of the millennium, not at its beginning.

Are they to experience another judgement and a 3rd death? Seems like double jeopardy to me - being punished twice for the same crime.

There's no biblical account of a 3rd death, hence, no double jeopardy.

March 16, 2015

All wicked are destroyed in the 7 last plagues which occur just after the 2nd Coming. That's their first death. This will be before the start of the millennium They are the same group that comprise the "rest of the dead" who will be resurrected at the end of the millennium where they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

March 16, 2015

1. It's documented in the NT. Is Jude lying (or mistaken)?

2. I believe that Moses' appearance at the transfiguration was the real deal; not a "vision". Peter says that they were eyewitnesses; and never implies that it was a "vision". That's enough evidence for me. Not saying you're wrong; just saying our opinions differ.

Show me what verse Jude is referring to in the OT?

March 16, 2015

Scuba,

I think we must agree to disagree. I don't see anything to be gained by repeating our arguments concerning Moses, Elijah, and Enoch.

March 16, 2015

Concerning "the rest of the dead" who do not "live again" until 1000 years AFTER the Second Coming:

I would like to read Scripture support for the idea that "the rest of the dead" and the hordes of Gog and Magog are THE SAME GROUP of people.

I personally believe that the hordes of Gog will constitute only SOME of "the rest of the dead".

I believe that SOME (probably the smaller portion) of "the rest of the dead" will "go up to the Mountain of the LORD" and will be taught the "way of the LORD" by

the redeemed from the "first resurrection" who will become "priests of God and of Christ". These people will also be "grafted in" to the Israel of God.

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John 3:13 "no one has ascended"

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