God did not have a begotten Son prior to the birth of Jesus...

[Scuba]

Notice in Hebrews 1:1-2 how God spoke in various ways in times past but it wasn't through a Son.

 

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.

 

Jesus Himself bears witness to the fact that He has become a witness with His Father.

 

John 8:17-18 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

 

Prior to Jesus, the Father had no other witness.

 

Hebrews 6:13-14 For instance, there was God’s promise to Abraham: God took an oath in his own name, since there was no one greater to swear by, that he would bless Abraham again and again, and give him a son and make him the father of a great nation of people.

 

Many people say that it was Jesus who created us but Jesus Himself tells us that it wasn't He who created us.

 

Mark 10:5-6 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

 

Matthew 19:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female.'

[JoeMo]

Sorry Scuba, I don't agree with you here.  If no man has seen God, who did Adam walk with?  Who did Abraham meet with prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and prior to the birth of Isaac?  Who was the One that looked like "A Son of Man" in the fiery furnace?  Who was the writer of Proverbs discussing when he said "Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!" (Proverbs 30:4)? Who was John talking about in John 1 when he says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1: 1-5)?  Who was theothe Person in the  "we" (Elohim) spoken of in Genesis 1?

 

There are scores of other references to God's Son and His pre-existence before His human birth.

[Scuba]

I believe any manifestation of God or creation of God in the Old Testament was done through His Spirit. Jesus was a man approved of by God. God did many miraculous things through Jesus. Jesus had His literal beginning in Mary but He was foreordained by God from before the foundation of the world in the plan of God. In the Old Testament you never here a conversation between the Spirit of God and God. The angel that was in the fiery furnace was like one of the sons of God, The sons of God were the angels. Every verses in the Old Testament that speaks of Jesus is always in prophetic form, in other words, something that was to take place in the future. The word that was with God is not a person, it's a manifestation of God through His Spirit.

 

Share some verses with me that you use to prove Jesus literally existed prior to His birth? 

[Stewart (SDA)]

...

 

Share some verses with me that you use to prove Jesus literally existed prior to His birth? 

In the wilderness, Israel "did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1Cor 10:4)

 

And when Paul speaks about the difference between angels and the Son, he says that the Father has spoken to the Son (prior to His incarnation into humanity,) saying,

 

"Thy throne of God, is for ever and ever..." (Heb 1:8)

[Ted Oplinger]

Are you referring to the fusion of the Divine and the human, Scuba? THAT aspect of Jesus Christ did not exist prior to Christ's Incarnation...but to say Christ, God the Son, did not exist..sorry, I'd disagree. There is more than enough Scriptural evidence to support the point that God the Father and Christ - God the Son - were, are, and always will be, co-eternal.

 

By Christ's profession in John 17:5 - "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was."

 

If you believe Christ did not exist prior to His Incarnation, then you must necessarily say Christ is but babbling here, for He is claiming pre-existence with the Father since before this world was created.

 

Backing up a couple of verses, in verse 3, we see the words, "and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." One cannot be sent by another unless they are existent at the time the command to go is given.

 

In Colossians 11:15-17, we read, "He (Christ Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all Creation, for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, invisible and visible​, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold."

 

Either Paul is being overly general and lying to us about Christ...or maybe Christ Jesus is the active Creator of all things, with the Father working through Him to create? Paul is as inclusive as he can possibly be - Christ Jesus created everything...even those aspects of Creation we cannot see or detect. 

 

In 1 Corinthians 10, Paul again refers to the pre-existence of Christ...this time through the event associated with Moses and Israel coming forth out of Egypt. Christ it was who led them out of Egypt, and Christ it was who accompanied and led Israel in the wilderness. Christ it was, on Mt Sinai, spoke to Moses and said, "Let them build Me a sanctuary, that I may dwell with them.", foreshadowing His own Incarnation in which to dwell among us (John 1:14). Christ is the ROCK from whom Israel drank...and is the ROCK so frequently mentioned in Psalms by David and the rest of the Psalms composers.

 

Old and New Testament...Jesus has always been God dwelling among us. It is at the Incarnation that Jesus gave up a crucial aspect of His Divinity, in order to complete the fusing of mankind back to the source of all life - the Self-Existent Creator. That crucial aspect was omnipresence. He could not keep His omnipresence and at the same time become leader of the rejoined human race. One, or the other, had to go. Jesus Christ chose to save us, and let go of omnipresence.

 

I do say, I am being extremely abbreviated here, but this suffices for now to provide the Biblical foundation from which my perspective rests.

 

Blessings,

[Lauralea]

Jesus said Before Abraham was I am. And they took up rocks to stone Him. Clearly He was saying He was the preexistant God and that is why they were going to stone Him. Also John 1. The Word was in the beginning with God and all things were made by Him.And the word was made flesh and dwelt among men and we beheld His glory full of grace and truth.

[Scuba]

It's best to look at one verse at a time because it can become overwhelming to answer so many at once.

 

In order to understand the existence of Jesus prior to His birth you have to understand how the Hebrew mindset thinks. When God speaks of Jesus, and even us, He speaks of what is contained within His mind as a plan before it becomes reality. He speaks of things as though they are real before they become real. Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world according to the foreordained plan of God, which was contained within His mind before it became reality. Jesus Himself was crucified 2000 years ago. This is the glory that Jesus spoke of.

 

(1 Peter 1:11) - They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward.

 

Even we ourselves were foreordained and had glory before the foundation of the world according to God's mind according to His plan.

 

(1 Corinthians 2:7) - We speak about the mystery of God’s wisdom. It is a wisdom that has been hidden, which God had planned for our glory before the world began. 

 

(Ephesians 1:4) - Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

 

Listen to how Jeremiah preexisted in the mind of God according to His plan.

 

(Jeremiah 1:5) - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

 

All through the Old Testament we read of Jesus in prophetic language as a future Son in the foreordained plan of God but it wasn't until 2000 years ago when the Son became reality.

 

(1 Peter 1:20) - Jesus indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last days for you.

 

Some say Jesus was sent by God or sent into the world so that means He preexisted in heaven first but this does not mean He literally preexisted anymore than it does for us when we're sent from God or sent into the world or not of this world.

 

(John 17:18) - As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

 

(John 1:6) - There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

 

(John 17:14) - I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

 

(John 17:16) - They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

 

(John 15:19) - If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 

 

Another thing that must be understood is the two creations. The first creation took place when God created in Genesis and the second creation took place when God created the world to come through Jesus. Many people miss this and become confused between the two creations. Listen to Hebrews 1:1-2 speak of how the Son did not exist prior to these last days but then it says He made the worlds.

 

(Hebrews 1:1-2) - God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds. 

 

Some take the fact that Jesus made the worlds to mean Genesis but its not. The world here is referring to the new creation or the world to come. Listen how Hebrews confirms which world its referring to.

 

(Hebrews 2:5) - For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.

 

The world to come is referring to the new creation or the age to come.

 

(Matthew 12:32) - Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.

 

(Luke 18:30) - Who shall not receive much more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

 

(Mark 10:30) - But he shall receive an hundredfold, now at this present, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands with persecutions, and in the world to come, eternal life. 

 

There is so much more but I'll stop here for now.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Scuba, I hope I can apply the thought you've shared:

"It's best to look at one verse at a time because it can become overwhelming to answer so many at once.

In order to understand the existence of Jesus prior to His birth you have to understand how the Hebrew mindset thinks." I agree.

________

Micha 5:2 speaks about the ruler in Israel coming out of Bethlehem. Of course this scripture was understood by the Jews to apply to the Messiah. The text speaks of Him "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

 

The Jews themselves translate the text - "...whose origin is from of old, from ancient times." (Tanakh.)

 

From this, E.J. Waggoner [and others in our early days,] were teaching that "there was a time when Christ proceeded forth from God, from the bosom of the Father..., but that time was so far back in the days of eternity, that to finite comprehension it is practically without beginning." (Christ and His Righteousness p.22) I struggled with this concept, but now I readily accept it. To my mind the common cell division (mitosis) gives a crude (but wonderful) picture of how I believe Christ originated. When a cell replicates it cannot be said that either one of the "new" cells preceded the other; both existed in the original 'body'. This natural process illustrates, I believe, how it was with the Father and Christ. Neither one preceded the other, but there was a time when they were physically, literally, One.

[wendys]

When Jesus said that his father was greater than he, that was true while he was on earth.  As our savior, he had to live as one of us.  He did all of his healing by faith and prayer rather than using his own power.  He went through his trial just as we would have to do - he did not obliterate his enemies who were seeking to kill him even though he had the right and the ability to do so, but which we have neither the right nor the ability to do.  He had to live as our example in every respect and therefore he could not use his own power to do anything that we cannot also do.  Thus, he reduced himself to the role of living as the second Adam, which meant that as a man while on earth, indeed he was less than his Father, but this was by his own choice.  But, when he returned to heaven, then he resumed being God and this meant that he was equal to God in every way then except that he could no longer be omnipresent.  The following verses explain this:

 

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be grasped to be equal with God:

Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Php 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 

This indicates both that he was God before he became a man and it makes it clear that while he was human, he was less than God in what he did.  He had to act  as we have to do in the same circumstances.  Upon returning to heaven, his previous position was resumed.

[Aliensanctuary]

Often, if not all the time, Jesus was the voice of YHVH, his father. Jesus was, though, the only human-born son of God, according to scripture. Adam was a son of God also, but was not born of a woman.

 

Was Jesus just another messenger (angel) before being chosen to become human?

[Lauralea]

Jesus was the I Am the preexistant God. His saying this was why they sought to stone Him.

[Scuba]

Micha 5:2 speaks about the ruler in Israel coming out of Bethlehem. Of course this scripture was understood by the Jews to apply to the Messiah. The text speaks of Him "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

 

Why do you have to see the, goings forth from old to be literal? Jesus was most surely in the plan of God from the foundation of the world in the plan of God. Jesus was most surely crucified from before the foundation of the world in the plan of God. The whole Old Testament talked about Jesus in prophetic language.

 

(John 5:39) - You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

 

The scriptures testify of Jews is in prophetic language. Listen to the prophetic language in the words, "Shall be". When this was written the Son did not yet exist.

 

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world in the plan of God but was not made literal until His birth.

 

(1 Peter 1:20) - Jesus indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last days for you.

 

Being foreordained does not mean a literal existence. Even Jeremiah was foreordained before he was born but we don't say he preexisted. 

 

(Jeremiah 1:5) - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

[Scuba]

Jesus was the I Am the preexistant God. His saying this was why they sought to stone Him.

The "I AM" who spoke with Moses through the burning bush was the Spirit of God speaking as the Messenger of the Lord and we know that Jesus was not an angel prior to His birth.

 

(Hebrews 1:5) - For to which of the angels did He ever say:“You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?

 

(Hebrews 1:13) - But to which of the angels has He ever said:“Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

 

The "I AM" in the burning bush was not the pre-incanate Son of God speaking. Listen carefully to the discussion and notice how the Pharisees misinterpreted what Jesus said, which is something they often did.

 

(John 8:52-59) - Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?” Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His DAY, speaking of a future event when Jesus would be born as the promised seed of Abraham. This is not saying Jesus was alive speaking to Moses in the burning bush. Abraham saw Jesus' day by faith (referring to His birth) and rejoiced because he believed God.

 

(Genesis 15:5-6) - Then the Lord took Abram outside and said to him, “Look up into the sky and count the stars if you can. That’s how many descendants you will have!” And Abram believed the Lord, and the Lord counted him as righteous because of his faith.

 

The whole discussion between Jesus and the Pharisees was regarding Jesus as the promised seed of Abraham but the Pharisees missed it.

 

(Galatians 3:16) - Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

 

Jesus was in fact before Abraham as the promised seed of the woman in Genesis who would crush the serpent's head. 

 

(Genesis 3:15) - And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

 

Jesus was the promised seed of Eve, the promised seed of Abraham and the promised seed of David. All this was according to the plan of God long before Abraham ever existed. 

 

(John 7:42) - Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the seed of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was?”

 

Abraham, by faith, was able see Jesus' future DAY and believed God. We know it was by faith that Abraham saw Jesus as a future promise because Abraham died without receiving the promise.

 

(Hebrews 11:11-14) - By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 

 

Jesus is the promised seed who would be born the Messiah of Israel. All the details of His life were spoken of in prophetic langauge all throughout the Old Testament. Micah spoke of the details of Jesus foreodained life as the goings forth from old. 

 

​(Micah 5:2) - “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”

 

(John 5:39) - You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

 

Jesus, as the slain Lamb, was even before the foundation of the world in the mind of God according to His foreordained plan.

 

(Revelation 13:8) - All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

(1 Peter 1:20) - Jesus indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last days for you.

 

The, goings forth of Jesus, were truly before the days of old and even from everlasting in the mind of God according to His foreordained plan.

 

​(Micah 5:2) - “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.”

 

The goings forth of Jesus is not referring to literal preexistence, but rather, prophetic revealing of God's plan. Everything in the Old Testament, regarding Jesus, was a future promise according to the plan of God, not a literal reality. Listen to Isaiah speak of Jesus using the future tense, "Shall be". This was because Jesus wasn't a reality yet. Also notice kingdom language, referring to a new creation and governmental system.

 

(Isaiah 9:6-7) - For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder. And His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon His Kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

The, goings forth of Jesus from old, is not a literal existence, but rather, it's referring to the seed of Jesus or His family tree. Here is the, goings forth of Jesus from old.

 

(Matthew 1:1-25) -The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon. And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

 

This is reconfirmed by Luke but this time Luke takes the, goings forth of Jesus, all the way back to Adam. This is why Jesus could say, "Before Abraham, I am".

 

(Luke 3:23-38) - Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

[Scuba]

Many times throughout Jesus' ministry He would say things that were misunderstood by the Pharisees. Many doctrines were formed from the Pharisees response to Jesus, rather than, Jesus' correction to the response. Listen to this discussion.

 

John 10:28-36 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

 

Jesus never called Himself the Father nor did He ever say He was equal to the Father but that's what the Pharisees interpreted Him to be saying but Jesus corrected them. Today we say Jesus is equal to the Father and some will even say that He is the Father because the Pharisees wanted to stone Him.

 

We do the same thing with the discussion between Jesus and the Pharisees when Jesus said, "Abraham saw my day and rejoiced". The Pharisees misunderstood Jesus to be saying He was alive before Abraham but Jesus corrected them.

 

Today's church does the same thing with the discussions between Jesus and the Pharisees regarding the Sabbath. 

 

Let's build our doctrines on the words and corrections of Jesus and not the misunderstandings of the Pharisees. 

[Lauralea]

Jesus said Before Abraham was I am. And they took up rocks to stone Him. Clearly He was saying He was the preexistant God and that is why they were going to stone Him. Also John 1. The Word was in the beginning with God and all things were made by Him.And the word was made flesh and dwelt among men and we beheld His glory full of grace and truth.

[Sojourner]

Scuba, are you a Christadelphian? 

[Scuba]

 

 

 

It takes a lot of studying to come out of Babylon. Many of these things I share do not come by reading only one verse, you have to read many verses and understand how God speaks in relation to His plan. Many of the things Jesus said were misunderstood by the Pharisees such as when Jesus was referring to Abraham, as well as, many other things Jesus said and taught. Remember, Jesus spoke many things in parables so many people missed what He was saying. 

 

Matthew 13:34-35 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.” 

 

Go here to understand the discussion between Jesus and the Pharisees. 

[Scuba]

Scuba, are you a Christadelphian? 

 

No I'm not a Christadelphian I just believe every denomination has a piece of the puzzle, we just have to be willing to study and test and accept what is good and let go of what is not and allow the Spirit to discern the difference. 

 

1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good.

[Scuba]

Did the Father become Jesus or was the Father in Jesus through His eternal Spirit?

 

Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

Was Jesus the Father or was the Father in Jesus?

 

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

Was Jesus the Father or was Jesus a man approved of by God who came into being through Mary of which the Father did many miracles?

 

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know.

 

Jesus was a man who was miraculously conceived in the womb of Mary and because of this, not before this, He was called the Son of God.

 

Luke 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and God's power will rest upon you. For this reason the holy child will be called the Son of God.

 

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It's best to look at one verse at a time because it can become overwhelming to answer so many at once.

 

In order to understand the existence of Jesus prior to His birth you have to understand how the Hebrew mindset thinks. When God speaks of Jesus, and even us, He speaks of what is contained within His mind as a plan before it becomes reality. He speaks of things as though they are real before they become real. Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world according to the foreordained plan of God, which was contained within His mind before it became reality. Jesus Himself was crucified 2000 years ago. This is the glory that Jesus spoke of.

 

(1 Peter 1:11) - They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward.

 

Even we ourselves were foreordained and had glory before the foundation of the world according to God's mind according to His plan.

 

(1 Corinthians 2:7) - We speak about the mystery of God’s wisdom. It is a wisdom that has been hidden, which God had planned for our glory before the world began. 

 

**snip**

 

There is so much more but I'll stop here for now.

 

 

Scuba, why are you doing a "copy and paste" without providing the source, and acting as if you are the original author of these thoughts?  That's rather disingenuous... 

 

http://bereanchristianfellowship.homestead.com/deeperstudyofGod.html

[Scuba]

Scuba, why are you doing a "copy and paste" without providing the source, and acting as if you are the original author of these thoughts?  That's rather disingenuous... 

 

http://bereanchristianfellowship.homestead.com/deeperstudyofGod.html

 

WOW! How did you find that? You must be doing your research. That is one of my old websites that I thought I unpublished years ago. I can still go into it by logging on to my web builder but the public can't see if I unpublished it. I unpublished it because there are too many things on it that most people are not ready for but I still cut and paste from it because the verses are already their which saves me the time of having to look them up again.

[Scuba]

Is the word, that was in the beginning with God, a person or was it the conduit by which God manifests His wisdom and creative power? If we go back into the Old Testament we will find that it wasn't Jesus or even a son that created everything, it was God working through His Spirit.

 

(Proverbs 1:23) - Turn at my rebuke; surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.

 

(Psalm 104:30) - You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the earth.

 

(Job 26:13) - By His Spirit He adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent.

 

(Job 33:4) - The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

 

Even Jesus Himself says it was God who created them male and female.

 

Matthew 19:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’

 

Mark 10:5-6 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

[Lauralea]

It takes a lot of studying to come out of Babylon. Many of these things I share do not come by reading only one verse, you have to read many verses and understand how God speaks in relation to His plan. Many of the things Jesus said were misunderstood by the Pharisees such as when Jesus was referring to Abraham, as well as, many other things Jesus said and taught. Remember, Jesus spoke many things in parables so many people missed what He was saying. 

 

Matthew 13:34-35 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: “I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.” 

 

Go here to understand the discussion between Jesus and the Pharisees. 

 Scuba I have been an Adventist for many years and was in supporting ministries for decades and heard many wonderful preachers including basically all of the well known moderate or moderately conservative SDA ones. In all the thousands of sermons I have heard, none of them has ever suggested Jesus did not exist before He was born in Bethlehem.  Not Mark Finley not Doug Batchelor not Dwight Nelson Steve Bohr or any of them. The fact that I see this point differently than you does not indicate I am in Babylon. The Pharisees did misunderstand many things Jesus said. However, in this one they did understand Him. He was saying He existed before Abraham. This is also what John 1 says- He was the Creator. The Scripture clearly explains itself.

[Scuba]

Some translations capitalize the (W) in word to make it seem like it's a person but as we know, the original language did not use capital letters. The funny thing is that in one verse they will use a capital letter for the word (Word/Logos) but the same word (Logos) in other verses is a lower case (w). Notice how the same word word/Logos is in lower case and how Jesus is in the same sentence as Logos because they are two different entities

 

Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Jesus, as a man, had His own word/will that came into being by His birth through Mary. Jesus had to resist His word/will in order to obey the word of God, that same word that God spoke and brought everything into being. 

 

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

Why did Jesus need to resist His own words and order to obey the Father's words. Because they are two different entities. One is eternal (The Father's) and one had a beginning (Jesus').

[Scuba]

 Scuba I have been an Adventist for many years and was in supporting ministries for decades and heard many wonderful preachers including basically all of the well known moderate or moderately conservative SDA ones. In all the thousands of sermons I have heard, none of them has ever suggested Jesus did not exist before He was born in Bethlehem.  Not Mark Finley not Doug Batchelor not Dwight Nelson Steve Bohr or any of them. The fact that I see this point differently than you does not indicate I am in Babylon. The Pharisees did misunderstand many things Jesus said. However, in this one they did understand Him. He was saying He existed before Abraham. This is also what John 1 says- He was the Creator. The Scripture clearly explains itself.

 

Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced. He didn't say, "Abraham saw me and rejoiced". Also, just because those men you mentioned never mentioned Jesus as not being preexisted does not mean they have the truth in this area. These same men also believe Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday. 

 

Go here and see how much still needs to be corrected.

 

 

And here too.