God did not have a begotten Son prior to the birth of Jesus...

[Lauralea]

It is agreed by most believers that Satan formerly known as Lucifer is a fallen angel. Michael fought against Lucifer and prevailed, (Revelation 12). Lucifer's problem was he wanted to be like God in power and status. (Ezekiel 28). Lucifer battled against Micheal because he wanted to be like God. Michael was incarnated as Christ, God the Son. Otherwise Lucifer predates Christ. One of the attributes of God is preexistence so saying Lucifer predates Christ causes some serious theological issues. 

[8thdaypriest]

Scuba said, "a bridge still needs needs to be built connecting Jesus with Michael."

 

I was trying to build that "bridge" in my last post to this thread. 

[Scuba]

Scuba said, "a bridge still needs needs to be built connecting Jesus with Michael."

 

I was trying to build that "bridge" in my last post to this thread.

If Jesus did preexist the most likely candidate would be the Angel of the Lord. Now one would have to connect the Angel of the Lord to Michael and that connection would be the bridge to Jesus.

[Lauralea]

Yes 8th day priest I appreciated your post,

[LifeHiscost]

If Jesus did preexist the most likely candidate would be the Angel of the Lord. Now one would have to connect the Angel of the Lord to Michael and that connection would be the bridge to Jesus.

There is no contradiction according to Strong's concordance.

 

aggelos: an angel, messenger

Original Word: ἄγγελος, ου, ὁ

Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: aggelos

Phonetic Spelling: (ang'-el-os)

Short Definition: an angel, messenger

Definition: a messenger, generally a (supernatural) messenger from God, an angel, conveying news or behests from God to men.

 

8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." 9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father '?…John 14

 

Sounds like a Messenger to me.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

NIV  1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

NIV  John 5:25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. (Joh 5:25 NIV)

 

If you put these two verses together, "the voice" that raises the dead is "the voice of the Archangel", who IS the Son of God.

 

Michael is called "the archangel" (Jude 1:9) - the chief of, or commander of - the angels.

 

Gabriel is just an angel.  He is not called "the archangel". 

[Scuba]

NIV  1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

NIV  John 5:25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. (Joh 5:25 NIV)

 

If you put these two verses together, "the voice" that raises the dead is "the voice of the Archangel", who IS the Son of God.

 

Michael is called "the archangel" (Jude 1:9) - the chief of, or commander of - the angels.

 

Gabriel is just an angel.  He is not called "the archangel".

These verses do make sense.

[8thdaypriest]

I thought of another verse that suggests the Messiah preexisted.

 

1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death din the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark" (NAU).

 

Let me see if I can connect the dots.

 

Jesus said, "God is Spirit" (John 4).

 

The Son of God was "in the form of God" before He incarnated.

So the Son was in the same "form" as His Father - meaning the Son was also "spirit".

 

As "spirit" -He - the Son of God - inspired the preaching of the Old Testament Prophets - like Noah.

"He predicted" His future sufferings.

He - testified to "spirits in prison" - THOUGH Noah.  The minds of the people in Noah's day were held in prison to sin and Satan. 

The phrase is used in other passages of Scripture, to describe people whose minds were held captive to falsehood, or sin.

 

1 Peter 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. (NIV)

 

He had to EXIST in order to "preach" or to "testify" or to "predict". 

[Scuba]

I thought of another verse that suggests the Messiah preexisted.

 

1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death din the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark" (NAU).

 

Let me see if I can connect the dots.

 

Jesus said, "God is Spirit" (John 4).

 

The Son of God was "in the form of God" before He incarnated.

So the Son was in the same "form" as His Father - meaning the Son was also "spirit".

 

As "spirit" -He - the Son of God - inspired the preaching of the Old Testament Prophets - like Noah.

"He predicted" His future sufferings.

He - testified to "spirits in prison" - THOUGH Noah.  The minds of the people in Noah's day were held in prison to sin and Satan. 

The phrase is used in other passages of Scripture, to describe people whose minds were held captive to falsehood, or sin.

 

1 Peter 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. (NIV)

 

He had to EXIST in order to "preach" or to "testify" or to "predict".

So what you're saying is Jesus was Michael in the OT which is also a Spirit.

[8thdaypriest]

NIV  Hebrews 1:14 "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

 

THE original divine SPIRIT was the Father.

He beget a Son, in His exact image (likeness) (Heb. 1:1-3).

 

That Son carried our His Father's will in the creation of other subordinate spirit beings - seraphim, cherubim, and angels.

 

Spirit beings are NOT flesh as we are.  They exist in another dimension - the spirit dimension.  They are pure energy.

We cannot SEE them, except when they APPEAR in our dimension. 

 

Those of us who are granted eternal life at the Second Coming, will receive new "spiritual" bodies. 

Then we will be LIKE the angels. 

Then we can exist in their dimension. 

 

After Jesus was resurrected by His Father, He entered the upper room, without entering through the door.

He vanished from their site (more than once). 

So - apparently He can move back and forth between the spirit dimension, and the physical dimension. 

 

Don't be thrown off by the word "spirit". 

Just because they existed in a different dimension, in a different FORM, doesn't mean they were not Father and Son. 

One "came forth" from the Other. 

[8thdaypriest]

Hebrews 12:9 "Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? (NKJ)

 

So - "GOD is spirit" (Jn 4:24). and HE is "the Father of spirits". 

But only ONE was begotten in His exact likeness.  All the others were created. 

 

Ephesians 3:14-15  "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (NKJ)

 

We call HIM "our Father" even though we know that we are created beings.  Luke 3:38 "the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God" (NKJ)

It's the SAME with the angels, and all other beings. 

 

Ephesians 4:5-6 "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (NKJ)

 

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (NKJ)

 

I do NOT personally believe that my God, is a Trinity.  My God is "the Father",  and my LORD is Jesus.  I worship Jesus BECAUSE the Father has told angels and men to worship Him. 

I believe that the Son of God was begotten BEFORE anything was created.  The Father created "all things through" His Son.

 

Ephesians 3:9 "and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;" (NKJ)

 

The Son's NAME - before He incarnated with human nature - was Michael (= "like unto God"). 

The Son's NAME - after He incarnated with human nature - was Jesus (Jehoshua = "Jehovah is salvation").

 

Jesus - the man - DID NOT EXIST prior to His incarnation in the womb of Mary.  With THAT I agree.

Michael - the Son of God and commander of angels - DID EXIST. 

 

The Son of God - the essence of HIM, did NOT CEASE TO EXIST, when He was transformed in nature - from omnipotent to helpless. 

Just as the man Jesus, did NOT CEASE TO EXIST, when He was glorified by His Father and restored to "the glory that" He had with the Father before the world was." (Jn 17:5).

As the Father filled His Son with His own glory, the Son was restored to omnipotence, and omniscience. 

 

Yet the Son REMAINS SUBORDINATE.

 

1 Corinthians 15:27-28  for "He put everything in subjection under his feet." But when it says that "everything" has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah.  Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be all in all.

 

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

PS:

When Jesus said, "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath.", (Jn 12)

He was saying that He was the creator.  

 

If He was the Creator, then He EXISTED prior to His incarnation.   

[Aliensanctuary]

LORD

 

kurios (2962) - koo'-ree-os - κύριος - From κῦρος kuros ( supremacy ); supreme in authority that is (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God Lord master Sir.

 

LORD of the Sabbath could also mean, Ruler or Administrator of the Sabbath, not necessarily the Creator of that observance.

[8thdaypriest]

LORD of the Sabbath could also mean, Ruler or Administrator of the Sabbath, not necessarily the Creator of that observance.

I was thinking of "the LORD, Who made heaven and earth" (Psa 115:15 NKJ).  Same in Ps. 121:2, Ps. 124:8, Ps.134:3, and Jer. 33:2.