God did not have a begotten Son prior to the birth of Jesus...

[Gregory Matthews]

Just a point of information, in response to post # 60:

 

 

 

. . .  our Bibles have been tweaked such as the coma when Jesus said, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise".

 

The languages of the New Testament, in which the above statement of Christ was written, do not have the punctuation marks that English has.  When a written document is translated from those languages into English, the translators have to place the marks required by English where they think that they should be placed.  The Biblical text does not tell them where to place the marks.

 

So, the tweaking that we are told was done in this verse is what is required of a translator to do.  That tweaking may be correct and it may not be correct.  In either case it is one of the human elements that exist in our
Bible.

[8thdaypriest]

How would you interpret this verse?

Romans 8: 9-10 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

I believe that the Son of God divested Himself of all divine power when He incarnated.  He took the nature of man. 

When He ascended back to His Father, He was "glorified".  His Father poured His Spirit thru His Son without measure, thus returning to Him divine power. 

In this way, the Son of God is NOW omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent - just as He was before His incarnation. 

 

Jesus said it best,  "Father . . . You in Me, and I in them, that they may be one in us"  (John 17). 

 

1 Corinthians 15:45  "Thus it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit" (NRS).

 

Jesus could not be everywhere present, and live IN His disciples, and be WITH them always, until after He was glorified - with the glory that He had with the Father before the world was (John 17:5).   

 

This is WHY He had to "go away".  After His divine power was restored, He would be a glorious being in whose presence mortal man could not long abide. 

 

There is only ONE mediator, BETWEEN God and man - the man Christ Jesus. 

If you say that the Holy Spirit is a third divine being - you have just inserted ANOTHER mediator. 

[JoeMo]

"There is only ONE mediator, BETWEEN God and man - the man Christ Jesus.

If you say that the Holy Spirit is a third divine being - you have just inserted ANOTHER mediator."

 

 , I think.  I honestly have struggled with this whole "Holy Spirit is the 3rd Person" issue for over 30 years; although I lean towards agreeing with Rachel.  Yet, sometimes when I'm lost in prayer, I find myself praying directly to the Holy Spirit for guidance.

[Samie]

...

 

If you say that the Holy Spirit is a third divine being - you have just inserted ANOTHER mediator. 

 

Is there any difference between a mediator from an intercessor? If Yes, then would you please explain?

 

Romans 8:26-27  

 

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 

 

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

[8thdaypriest]

Is there any difference between a mediator from an intercessor? If Yes, then would you please explain?

 

Romans 8:26-27  

 

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 

 

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

Romans 8:26-27  

 

26 Likewise the Spirit (Jesus) also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit (Jesus) itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 

 

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he (Jesus) maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

 

Jesus became the "life giving Spirit" when He was filled with the Spirit of His Father.

Only Jesus knows the Father. 

Therefore only Jesus knows "the mind of the Spirit".

 

The Father gives the Spirit.    "how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (Luke 11:13).

The Father is the SOURCE of the spirit. 

The Father poured out His spirit - thru His Son.

Acts 2:33  “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Christ] poured out this which you now see and hear” (NAS).

    John 14:16  “And I will ask  the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.”

 

NOTE:  The word translated "another" means one exactly like the first.  For instance "another dime".  A different word would be used to mean an addition one. 

    

    John 15:26  “But when the Helper comes, whom I [Christ] shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who (or which) proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me” (John 15:26).

 

    Ephesians 3:14-18  “For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.”

 

It is the Father's Spirit.

It proceeds or comes forth from, the Father.

The Father gives this spirit.

It comes to us THRU CHRIST.

We experience this Spirit AS the presence of Christ with us.

 

No third divine being is needed here.

How could the Father give another co-equal divine being?

How could Christ give another co-equal divine being?

 

We would need to read very different wording. 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 Corinthians 8:6  “Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”

 

Galatians 4:6  “And because you are sons, God [the Father] has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” (NAS)

[Samie]

...

 

No third divine being is needed here.

How could the Father give another co-equal divine being?

How could Christ give another co-equal divine being?

 

We would need to read very different wording. 

 

Did Jesus descend upon Himself?

 

NKJ Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

[8thdaypriest]

Did Jesus descend upon Himself?

 

NKJ Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

It was the spirit of His Father.  It was the "seal" that the Father set upon His Son. 

 

NKJ  John 6:27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

[Lauralea]

1 Corinthians 8:6  “Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”

This says that Jesus was the creator as does John I:1-3 , 10. Genesis I also uses the plural when God refers to himself at creation. They are consistent with one another.

God has the power to make matter out of nothing. Angels do not. To attribute this power to an angel is to give them power God refused to give them. Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High, not in character, but in power. To say the angels created man and Jesus did not puts the angels on a higher plane than Jesus.

The Sabbath is the symbol of God's creative power. Exodus 20 says we should remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy because in 6 days the Lord made Heaven and Earth and all that in them is. It says nothing about angels making heaven or earth nor does it say angels made man in Genesis. It says God made man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul. Angels cannot make life from nonlife and cannot make a sentient human being with the power to choose to live eternally. If they could they would be God. They are not. But Jesus is God. The We in Genesis 1 cannot refer to angels literally making man but can and does refer to Jesus.

[8thdaypriest]

This says that Jesus was the creator as does John I:1-3 , 10. Genesis I also uses the plural when God refers to himself at creation. They are consistent with one another.

God has the power to make matter out of nothing. Angels do not. To attribute this power to an angel is to give them power God refused to give them. Lucifer wanted to be like the Most High, not in character, but in power. To say the angels created man and Jesus did not puts the angels on a higher plane than Jesus.

The Sabbath is the symbol of God's creative power. Exodus 20 says we should remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy because in 6 days the Lord made Heaven and Earth and all that in them is. It says nothing about angels making heaven or earth nor does it say angels made man in Genesis. It says God made man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living soul. Angels cannot make life from nonlife and cannot make a sentient human being with the power to choose to live eternally. If they could they would be God. They are not. But Jesus is God. The We in Genesis 1 cannot refer to angels literally making man but can and does refer to Jesus.

GRIEF!!  I did NOT SAY that angels created anything! 

 

I said that the Son of God (who is divine) acted as the agent of His own Father, when He created all things. 

 

So God the Father was the SOURCE.

Christ came forth from the Father, and then acted as the Father's agent in creating everything else.

Angels were created.

Christ was begotten! 

[Lauralea]

GRIEF!! I did NOT SAY that angels created anything!

I said that the Son of God (who is divine) acted as the agent of His own Father, when He created all things.

So God the Father was the SOURCE.

Christ came forth from the Father, and then acted as the Father's agent in creating everything else.

Angels were created.

Christ was begotten!

[Lauralea]

Yes Scuba said that the we referred to was the angels. I tried to edit my post but my laptop crashed -literally- it fell on the floor and bent the charger plug- and I could not readily edit your quote out of my post on my phone because it was displaying source code. Sorry for not doing that. He was saying Jesus did not create the Earth and the verse you quoted says he did. Your position about Jesus appears to be similar to that held by James White at least for a time.

[8thdaypriest]

Thanks Lauralea

[Samie]

It was the spirit of His Father.  It was the "seal" that the Father set upon His Son. 

 

NKJ  John 6:27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

 

You believe the Spirit of God is the seal of the Father, with which the Father sealed His Son.

 

I believe the seal is different from the one sealed. The seal is NOT the one sealed. The seal and the one sealed are TWO (2) different entities.

 

You also believe that the Spirit is Jesus.

 

Romans 8:26-27  

 

26 Likewise the Spirit (Jesus) also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit (Jesus) itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 

 

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he (Jesus) maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

 

...

 

No third divine being is needed here.

How could the Father give another co-equal divine being?

How could Christ give another co-equal divine being?

 

We would need to read very different wording. 

 

 If there is no 3rd divine being, as you said there is none, and that the Spirit is Jesus, did the Father seal His Son with His Son?

[8thdaypriest]

God the Father poured His Spirit on Jesus (He sealed Him).

Jesus then pours that Spirit onto us.

 

BOTH Jesus sealing, and our sealing are the anointing with the Spirit. 

That Spirit is from the Father - who "is Spirit" (John 4:24).  (Already noted with several verses.)

 

NOTE:  In John 4, Jesus told the woman that the true worshipers would "worship the Father".  He didn't say anything about worshiping the Spirit.

 

We EXPERIENCE the Spirit as the presence of Jesus.

"God has sent forth the spirit of His Son, into your hearts, crying out 'Abba Father' (Gal. 4:6).

 

"He who descended [into the grave] is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things" (Eph 4:10 NRS).

 

He - Christ - fills all things - BECAUSE, He has been glorified with the glory He had with the Father before all things. 

The EFFECT of this is that Christ has once again become omnipresent.

 

The Father poured His Spirit (Himself really - because "God is spirit) thru His Son.  

Father and Son melded, and became as One.

and the RESULT, is that Christ has now been restored to divine omnipresence, and omniscience. 

 

He said, "I am with you always."

He didn't say "I'm sending someone else to be with you always." 

 

"The last Adam was made a life giving spirit" (I Cor 15:45).

[Scuba]

God the Father poured His Spirit on Jesus (He sealed Him).

Jesus then pours that Spirit onto us.

 

BOTH Jesus sealing, and our sealing are the anointing with the Spirit. 

That Spirit is from the Father - who "is Spirit" (John 4:24).  (Already noted with several verses.)

 

NOTE:  In John 4, Jesus told the woman that the true worshipers would "worship the Father".  He didn't say anything about worshiping the Spirit.

 

We EXPERIENCE the Spirit as the presence of Jesus.

"God has sent forth the spirit of His Son, into your hearts, crying out 'Abba Father' (Gal. 4:6).

 

"He who descended [into the grave] is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things" (Eph 4:10 NRS).

 

He - Christ - fills all things - BECAUSE, He has been glorified with the glory He had with the Father before all things. 

The EFFECT of this is that Christ has once again become omnipresent.

 

The Father poured His Spirit (Himself really - because "God is spirit) thru His Son.  

Father and Son melded, and became as One.

and the RESULT, is that Christ has now been restored to divine omnipresence, and omniscience. 

 

He said, "I am with you always."

He didn't say "I'm sending someone else to be with you always." 

 

"The last Adam was made a life giving spirit" (I Cor 15:45).

 

How many thrones are in heaven? To me there is one throne for the Father and one throne for the Son. The eternal Spirit of God manifested as the burning bush, the pillar of fire and pillar of smoke and the man Jesus all while being omnipresent. 

 

John 1:48-50 Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”

[Samie]

In an earlier post:

Romans 8:26-27  

 

26 Likewise the Spirit (Jesus) also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit (Jesus) itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 

 

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he (Jesus) maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God

 

...

 

No third divine being is needed here.

How could the Father give another co-equal divine being?

How could Christ give another co-equal divine being?

 

We would need to read very different wording. 

 

That's why I asked whether the Father sealed His Son with His Son. But you did not directly address this question.

 

Now you are saying:

God the Father poured His Spirit on Jesus (He sealed Him).

Jesus then pours that Spirit onto us.

 

BOTH Jesus sealing, and our sealing are the anointing with the Spirit. 

That Spirit is from the Father - who "is Spirit" (John 4:24).  (Already noted with several verses.)

 

...

 

No offense meant, but it appears you are not sure of your position yet.

 

1. Jesus is the Spirit. (from your post)

2. Jesus was anointed with the Spirit. (Scriptures say so)

3. The Spirit descended upon Jesus. (Scriptures say so)

 

If No.1 is correct then:

1. Jesus was anointed with Jesus.

2. Jesus descended upon Jesus.

 

For my part, I find it easy to believe that the Spirit is different from both the Father and the Son.

[8thdaypriest]

Well - Let's see if I can explain my position more clearly.

 

1.  "There is one God, the Father" (I Cor. 8:6).  The Father is supreme.  (Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

 

2.  The Father IS Spirit.  ("God is Spirit."  (Jn 4).  The Father is omnipresent.

 

3.  The Father ALSO manifests in a form that can be seen by His created beings.

He sits on a throne. 

 

4.  The Son was begotten (came forth from) the Father.

 

5.  The Son existed (prior to His incarnation) in the express (exact) image of the Father (Heb. 1:3).  Which means that the Son also existed as "spirit" and was omnipresent, could also manifest in a form that could be seen by angels and by men. 

 

6.  WHEN the Son incarnated, He divested Himself of all divine attributes.  He took the nature of man. 

 

7.  The Son was now dependent upon His Father for power to overcome, knowledge to teach,  and for any miracles. 

"the Father who dwells in Me does the works (Joh 14:10) .

 

8.  The Father dwelt IN His Son, by His Spirit - Just as Jesus dwells IN us, but to a lesser extent.  We have not yet experienced the greater indwelling.  And no - I do NOT believe that we will ever be divine.  We only share in divinity, to the limits set by the Father.

 

9.  When Jesus returned to heaven,and was glorified - the Father poured His Spirit (Himself really) into His Son - restoring Christ to omnipresence, and omniscience, and omnipotence.

That is why Jesus said, "You Father in me,  and I in them, that they may be one in us."  Christ did not mention a third divine being was necessary to accomplish this indwelling.

 

10.  God our Father (as Spirit) indwelt Christ, enabling Christ to indwell us.  Christ was restored to what He was before - omnipresent.  In other words, Christ can now act as the Spirit He once WAS.  Both Father AND Son, are Spirit - as they were before the incarnation.  Both Father and Son exist in bodily form, while at the SAME TIME being omnipresent. 

God the Father is NOT limited to a single location - sitting on a throne.  He is Spirit, and is omnipresent.  So is the Son - since He was glorified and restored to His former glory. 

 

10.  Right now - Jesus sits at the right hand of His Father - sharing the Father's throne.

 

11.  When Christ returns in glory, He will have His own "throne of His glory" because He will have been declared King of Kings - on the earth. 

He has NOT YET been given dominion of the earth.  So - as yet - He does not have a throne of His own. 

 

"Every creature in heaven and on earth . . . I heard saying, Blessing and honor and glory and power be to HIM who sits on the throne, AND to the Lamb, forever and ever!" (Rev. 5:13).

ONLY TWO beings are praised in this verse.  There is no mention of a third being who is worthy of glory. 

 

Samie,

I think you are wanting me to repeat, and repeat myself - hoping that I will falter and say something that you can refute.

I know what I believe. 

I have studied this Trinity issue for at least 20 years. 

[8thdaypriest]

I thought this thread was about whether the Son of God ever came into existence. 

Now we are debating whether the Spirit is a third divine being.

 

1.  I have found no command in Scripture that we are to exalt, glorify, give thanks to, pray to, or in any other way “worship” the Holy Spirit.  There is no account of any created being offering worship to the Holy Spirit by name.  We are to worship the Father “in spirit and in truth” (John 4:23).  We also worship Christ, BECAUSE the Father commanded us to do so.

 

2.  Christ prayed only to His Father, and never spoke to another divine being by name.  He instructed His disciples to pray to the Father, in the name of the Son (Matthew 6:10, John 15:16, John 16:23).

 

3.  We are to pray for the spirit, never to the spirit.  The Holy Spirit is the gift.

 

4.  Singular pronouns indicating possession, source, or relation, are used extensively with the word spirit throughout Scripture.  The Holy Spirit is called “His spirit,” “My spirit,” “the spirit of the Lord,” “the spirit of God,” “the spirit of Him” or “Your spirit.” This suggests that the Holy Spirit is the omnipresence and power of the Father and/or of Christ.  In Matthew 12:18,  Luke 4:18, and Romans 8:11, the Spirit is “the Spirit of the Father.”  1 Peter 1:10-11 refers to the “Spirit of Christ” as the inspiration of Old Testament prophets.

 

5.  Jesus called His Father “the only true God” (John 17:3).

 

6.  We were created by the Father,  through the Son   (1Cor.8:6,  Eph.3:9, Col.1:12-16, Heb.1:1-3).

    The family is named after the Father.  

        Ephesians 3:14,15  [Paul writing] “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ’ of Whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.”

     Those who enter the heavenly mansions will have the name of the Father AND of the Son written in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1, Rev.3:12).   Why not also the name of the Holy Spirit?  
 

 

7.  The Father is the God of Christ (Jn. 20:17, Rom. 15:6, 1Cor. 11:3, 2Cor. 1:3, 2Cor. 11:31, Eph. 1:3, Eph. 1:17, Col. 1:3, Heb. 1:9, 1Pet 1:3, Rev. 1:6). 

The following statement was made by Christ to John, many years after Pentecost 31AD.  

        Revelation 3:12  “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.  And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God.  And I will write on him My new name.”

 

“The head of Christ is God” (1 Cor. 11:3).

    Christ will be subordinate to the Father for all eternity (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).  
    The kingdom of heaven, was called by Christ, “My Father’s kingdom” (Matthew 26:29).

    There is no mention of “the Spirit’s kingdom.”

    “Our Father ... Thine is the kingdom” (Matthew 6:13).

    The last like the first sentence of the Lord’s prayer, points to our Father as above all power and authority and every name that is named.

 

8.  We are reconciled to the Father through the Son (Col 1:19-20).

There is no verse saying that we are reconciled to the Spirit.

 

9.  Revelation 7:10  “‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’” 

The Father "sits on the throne".  There is no mention in Scripture of the Spirit ever sitting on a throne.

 

10.  We “abide in the Son and in the Father” (1John 2:24).  Two Beings.

11.  “Our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son” (1John 1:3).  Two Beings.

 

People say that the Spirit is the "silent partner", and never gets any glory - but from my study a third Divine co-equal, co-eternal Being - is just NOT THERE. 

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

 

[Samie]

...

 

Samie,

I think you are wanting me to repeat, and repeat myself - hoping that I will falter and say something that you can refute.

Not quite. It's the other way around. You have already faltered that's why I was asking you but you kept on evading to directly address my question.

 

I know what I believe. 

I have studied this Trinity issue for at least 20 years.

Long years of study of an issue does not necessarily mean you have it right. In fact, Paul has said: "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Tim 3:7). I don't mean to apply this verse to you - it could even be more applicable to me - but just to show that long years of study is not a guarantee of truth.

 

I also don't believe in a Trinity - a triune God composed of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - because Scriptures do not teach it. But I know, as per Scriptures, that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other. All three of them are divine, but the Supreme Ruler of the whole universe is the Father, NOT the Son, NOT the Holy Spirit. To me, the title - GOD - refers to the Father alone, NOT to the Son, NOT to the Holy Spirit.

 

1 Corinthians 8:5-6   5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)  6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

You and I both believe that the Father is distinct from the Son.  We both agree on this.

 

What I am after is your explanation of your teaching about the non-existence of the Holy Spirit as a distinct entity because it appears to me that the Bible is replete with evidences of its, or better yet His, manifestations and existence as a separate entity, distinct from both the Father and the Son.  At one post you were saying that Jesus is the Spirit yet Jesus Himself said:

 

Matthew 12:32   And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

I would say that Jesus was through this verse declaring that He is not the Holy Spirit. But is the Holy Spirit the Father? Again Jesus' words:

 

John 14:26   But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

John 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 

 

It is the Father Who will send the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is the Father how come Jesus said, the Holy Spirit shall NOT speak of himself? Since when did the Father consult someone else on what to say?

[8thdaypriest]

Matthew 12:32   And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

Samie said,

"I would say that Jesus was through this verse declaring that He is not the Holy Spirit. But is the Holy Spirit the Father? Again Jesus' words:"

 

John 14:26   But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

John 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 

 

It is the Father Who will send the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is the Father how come Jesus said, the Holy Spirit shall NOT speak of himself? Since when did the Father consult someone else on what to say?

 

RACHEL ANSWERS:

 

The Father SENDS the Spirit, by pouring His own Spirit through Christ.

 

Let me quote all of John 14:16 to 18.

 

"And I [Jesus] will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate [another me] to help you and be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth.

 

The world cannot accept him [the Spirit of Truth], because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you  and will be in you.

18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you" (NIV).

 

Jesus is our "Advocate" :    1John 2:1 "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

 

This Spirit (of Truth) would be sent from the Father to be with us forever. 

But Jesus then says "I will not leave you."  and "I will come to you." 

 

So - is it Jesus who will come to be with us, or another Divine Spirit ? 

 

I believe it is Jesus - not as the physical man in a mortal body - but as Jesus glorified and restored to Omnipresence as "the Spirit of Truth". 

 

Jesus says "You know him."  "He dwells with you."  "And will be IN you."

Well - who did they KNOW?  Wasn't it Jesus who dwelt WITH them?

 

The SAME ONE who dwelt WITH them - would be with them and IN THEM - after Pentecost.

 

And isn't it Jesus who dwells IN us?

"Christ in you - the hope of glory" (Col 1:27).

"that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith" (Eph 3:17)

 

In His last prayer, Jesus said, "You [Father] in me, and I in them."

 

As for  John 16:

 

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

 

Jesus OFTEN said that His words were NOT HIS OWN.  He spoke the words of His Father, that were given Him to speak.

 

  "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works" (Joh 14:10 NKJ).

 

So the description of this "Spirit of truth" FITS with those things that Jesus said about HIMSELF.  He is STILL acting in a subordinate role, as the messenger BETWEEN His Father and humanity.  And we might ask, Was it really the Father who dwelt IN Christ, or was it a third divine being called "the Spirit" who was just communicating between the Father and the Son. 

I believe it really WAS the Father (as Spirit) who dwelt IN Christ. 

 

The "Spirit of Truth" is different from the human, mortal man - Jesus the Christ.

The Spirit of Truth is the glorified, omnipresent, omniscient - Son of God, who has been "made a life-giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45).

Jesus said, "I am the life." 

 

The glorified Son of God is as different from the mortal man,

as the mortal man was different from the pre-incarnate omnipotent Son of God. 

And yet He was and is the SAME ESSENTIAL BEING. 

 

I'm just thinking that your interpretation of these verses from John 14 and John 16, DEPENDS UPON your doctrinal position concerning just who or what the Spirit is.  I don't know that we can use these verses as "proof texts". 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

HOW I UNDERSTAND  Matthew 12:32:

 

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

 

I like the Complete Jewish Bible translation on this one.

 

CJB  Matthew 12:32 One can say something against the Son of Man and be forgiven; but whoever keeps on speaking against the Ruach HaKodesh will never be forgiven, neither in the 'olam hazeh nor in the 'olam haba. (Mat 12:32 CJB)

 

The idea was that the one KEPT ON SPEAKING AGAINST THE SPIRIT - calling it fake, or a demon, for instance,  that man could NOT be forgiven, BECAUSE he could not be "born of the Spirit".  One must "believe" before one can be "born again". 

 

Whoever spoke against "the Son of Man" (the mortal human being Jesus), that could be forgiven a man - just as Saul was forgiven for persecuting believers, and many, many Jews have been forgiven as they come to "know" the risen Christ. 

 

If you continue to call the Spirit of God a demon, then you utterly reject the Spirit - then you cannot be "born of the Spirit", and you cannot be saved. 

[Samie]

As is usually the case, you were not able, in your two last posts, adequately addressed what I was asking. Instead you just attempted to escape, sadly, from the pan to the fire, because you have just issued your own judgment against yourself by saying (emphasis mine):

 

...

 

The idea was that the one KEPT ON SPEAKING AGAINST THE SPIRIT - calling it fake, or a demon, for instance,  that man could NOT be forgiven, BECAUSE he could not be "born of the Spirit". 

 

...

 

 

Your persistent refusal to acknowledge the existence of a third divine being in the person of the Holy Spirit, is one way of saying that the Holy Spirit is fake, because you are teaching there is actually no Holy Spirit.

[8thdaypriest]

I don't write for you Samie.  There are others who read these posts, who may think I'm making a lot of sense. 

Now you're telling me that I'm committing the unpardonable sin.  

Come on Samie.  

How do you expect to dialog with folks, if you lob such accusations.   

[Samie]

Not lobbing, Sis Rachel.  Just citing your own, what you said is an, accusation.

 

And I have noticed that once you cannot address a question asked of your teaching you simply look for a way to wiggle out of the discussion by citing that the opposing party is doing this and that.

 

Ask me of my belief, and I will address your questions with direct responses based on Scriptures, for as long as there's any question to answer, whether you resort to heaping accusations against me. I won't resort to putting the blame on the opposing party just so I can escape from the discussion.