God did not have a begotten Son prior to the birth of Jesus...

[Lauralea]

Jesus had to subjugate His will to the Father because in his humanity He did not want to die the second death. This does not indicate He came into existence when  He received a human body. John 1 indicates He existed before the incarnation because He made the world

John 1: 1 -3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 

John 1:10-12 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

[Lauralea]

Jesus did bow his head and die on the preparation day before the Sabbath as the gospels indicate. Very early on the first day of the week when the women came to the tomb He had already been resurrected.  

So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him John 8 57-60 

[LifeHiscost]

I'm satisfied to believe just what this says, accepting anything elsewhere in the Word that can be seen as not disagreeing. Since Jesus said I and the Father are One, I'm unsure that one can be safely grounded while believing something else.

 

1In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

2He existed in the beginning with God.

3God created everything through him,

and nothing was created except through him.

4The Word gave life to everything that was created,^a

and his life brought light to everyone.

5The light shines in the darkness,

and the darkness can never extinguish it.^b

6God sent a man, John the Baptist,^c 7to tell about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony. 8John himself was not the light; he was simply a witness to tell about the light. 9The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

10 He came into the very world He created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God....John 1

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Scuba]

Jesus had to subjugate His will to the Father because in his humanity He did not want to die the second death. This does not indicate He came into existence when  He received a human body. John 1 indicates He existed before the incarnation because He made the world

John 1: 1 -3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10-12 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

 

Who made the world, Jesus or the spoken word of the Father through His Spirit?

 

(Psalm 104:30) - You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the earth.

 

(Job 26:13) - By His Spirit He adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent.

 

(Job 33:4) - The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

 

In the context of John it was the spoken word of the Father that created working through the Spirit that created the world. The word (word) is the word (logos) and logos is not a person. Our modern translations call the word in John a (He) and use a capital (W) but this is not what the early church believed. The early church believe the word was an (it) not a (he) because they believed the word was not a person,

 

Tyndale Bible

1534 by William Tyndale John

Chapter 1

Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.

Joh 1:3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.

 

The Great Bible

also called Cranmer Bible

1540 Miles Coverdale editor

John Chapter 1

Joh 1:1 In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde.

Joh 1:2 The same was in þe begynnyng wyth God.

Joh 1:3 All thinges were made by it, & wythout it, was made nothynge that was made.

 

The Geneva Bible

1587 by William Whittingham

John Chapter 1

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.

Joh 1:2 This same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.

 

The Bishops' Bible

1568 Matthew Parker editor

John Chapter 1

Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the begynnyng with God.

Joh 1:3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made.

 

The Emphatic Diaglott

(Interlinear Text)

1865 by Benjamin Wilson

John Chapter 1

Joh 1:1 In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.

Joh 1:2 This was in a beginning with the God.

Joh 1:3 All through it was done; and without it was done not even one, that has been done.

 

Matthew's Bible

1549 by John Rogers

John Chapter 1

Joh 1:1 In the begynnynge was the worde, and the word was with God, & the worde was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the begynnynge wyth God.

Joh 1:3 All thynges were made by it and without it was made nothynge that was made.

[Scuba]

I'm satisfied to believe just what this says, accepting anything elsewhere in the Word that can be seen as not disagreeing. Since Jesus said I and the Father are One, I'm unsure that one can be safely grounded while believing something else.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

Jesus and the Father are one so Jesus is preexisted because Jesus and the Father are one? What do you make of this?

 

John 17:21-22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

[Scuba]

Jesus did bow his head and die on the preparation day before the Sabbath as the gospels indicate. Very early on the first day of the week when the women came to the tomb He had already been resurrected.  

So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him John 8 57-60 

 

It does not say, "Before Abraham I was born". This is what it says,  John 8:57-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

Remember, Jesus spoke in parables so what He was referring to was not His physical being, but rather, the foreordained plan of God. Jesus was in fact foreordained before the foundation of the world in the plan of God as the promised seed but He didn't come into reality until His birth just over 2000 years ago.

 

1 Peter 1:20 Jesus indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

 

Before Jesus became reality, before He was manifest in these last days He was only in seed form all throughout the Old Testament. He was the seed of Eve, the seed of Abraham, the seen of David. 

 

Here is the history of Jesus before His birth.

 

(Matthew 1:1-25) -The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife of Uriah. Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon. And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

 

This is reconfirmed by Luke but this time Luke takes the, goings forth of Jesus, all the way back to Adam. This is why Jesus could say, "Before Abraham, I am".

 

(Luke 3:23-38) - Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

[Gregory Matthews]

Scuba in post # 22 said:

WOW! How did you find that? You must be doing your research. That is one of my old websites that I thought I unpublished years ago. I can still go into it by logging on to my web builder but the public can't see if I unpublished it. I unpublished it because there are too many things on it that most people are not ready for but I still cut and paste from it because the verses are already their which saves me the time of having to look them up again.

 

I find your statement that you "unpublished years ago" to be confusing.  I went to a forum that seems to be yours, called the Brean Christian Fellowship (BCF)d.  That forum seems to contain writings that you have posted here, and it appears to be current and up to date:

 

That forum contains links that took me directly to an announcement of the 2015 General Conference of the Church of God (7th day) that is scheduled to be held in Denver, Colorado.  If that is not current, I do not know what "Current" means.  If your BCF forum was "unpublished years ago, why dose it have current links that take one to an announcement of an upcoming meeting in Denver, to the Church of God (7th day)?

 

I should note that the BCF forum gave links to you, under your name, with a Rhode Island address and a telephone number beginning with the numbers 401.  [For privacy purposes I have not listed the entire number although, it was listed on the BCF Forum.]

[Scuba]

Scuba in post # 22 said:

 

 

 

I find your statement that you "unpublished years ago" to be confusing.  I went to a forum that seems to be yours, called the Brean Christian Fellowship (BCF)d.  That forum seems to contain writings that you have posted here, and it appears to be current and up to date:

 

That forum contains links that took me directly to an announcement of the 2015 General Conference of the Church of God (7th day) that is scheduled to be held in Denver, Colorado.  If that is not current, I do not know what "Current" means.  If your BCF forum was "unpublished years ago, why dose it have current links that take one to an announcement of an upcoming meeting in Denver, to the Church of God (7th day)?

 

I should note that the BCF forum gave links to you, under your name, with a Rhode Island address and a telephone number beginning with the numbers 401.  [For privacy purposes I have not listed the entire number although, it was listed on the BCF Forum.]

 

 

Not sure what you're trying to say. The website builder I use allows me to publish and unpublish as I want it's all a matter of clicking a button that says publish/unpublish. If I unpublish the website no one can see it, even though it's still working but I'm thinking that maybe each page has to be unpublished. My website has several pages that were published so I guess I have to go to each page and unpublish ech page. It's not really a big deal and I'm not trying to hide anything. I post all my work, websites and videos. I'm not here to convert anyone to anything, I'm just sharing what I have found in my studies. I would like people to refute what I say if what they say is true and can be confirmed clearer than what I'm posting. This is the website that I actively use right now... http://www.unlockingbibleprophecy.com/

[Samie]

NKJ Proverbs 30:4-6  

 

4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know? 

 

5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. 

 

6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

[Scuba]

NKJ Proverbs 30:4-6  

 

4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know? 

 

5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. 

 

6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

 

Here the writer is using sarcasm to prove a point. He is not saying Jesus preexisted. And how do you know that God wasn't referring to Israel His son, His first born?

 

Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.

 

When God created in Genesis He was alone in His creative work.

 

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.

 

Are you saying God was not alone in His creative work?

[Lauralea]

John1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

 

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was with God creating the Earth

 

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him

The Spirit bore witness to Jesus at his baptism. But Jesus was already God incarnate from birth.

 

 

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

Both Jesus and the Spirit were present at creation. The us in Gen 1 26 is literal not figurative. John 1 plainly says the Word was with God at creation. 

[Scuba]

How do we justify ourselves in saying the word in the beginning was a person. This reaks platonism. Plato was a pagan Greek philosopher that heavily influenced today's Christian beliefs. He was the one who injected the immortality of the soul into the Christian faith without one Bible verse to support it and just about the whole world believes it.   

[Scuba]

 

John1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

 

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was with God creating the Earth

 

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him

The Spirit bore witness to Jesus at his baptism. But Jesus was already God incarnate from birth.

 

 

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

Both Jesus and the Spirit were present at creation. The us in Gen 1 26 is literal not figurative. John 1 plainly says the Word was with God at creation. 

 

 

The us in Genesis is not Jesus and the Father, it's the angelic host and the Father. 

[Lauralea]

It does not say, "Before Abraham I was born". This is what it says,  John 8:57-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

Remember, Jesus spoke in parables so what He was referring to was not His physical being, but rather, the foreordained plan of God. Jesus was in fact foreordained before the foundation of the world in the plan of God as the promised seed but He didn't come into reality until His birth just over 2000 years ago.

 

1 Peter 1:20 Jesus indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

 

 

 

Exodus 3 13Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"15God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.…

 

Jesus was saying he was the "I am" which is why they sought to stone him. He gave the law to Moses. He was saying He was God. This was no parable. This is why they sought to stone him  in this instance and again here.

John 8…57So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him,

[Lauralea]

The us in Genesis is not Jesus and the Father, it's the angelic host and the Father. 

We are not in the image of the angels so He would not have said let us make man in our image. We were created in the image of God.

[Scuba]

The (us) in Genesis is not Jesus and the Father, it's the angelic host and the Father. Notice how it was the angels with God when He created.

 

Job 38:4-7 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.

Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

Notice the same thing happening in Isaiah.

 

Isaiah 6:1-9In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”

And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

So I said: “Woe is me, for I am undone!

Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord of hosts.”

Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth with it, and said:

“Behold, this has touched your lips;
Your iniquity is taken away,
And your sin purged.”

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?”

 

Here is what the NIV Study Bible says about the (us) in Genesis 1:26.

 

Us… Our… Our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court (see 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18)

[Scuba]

We are not in the image of the angels so He would not have said let us make man in our image. We were created in the image of God.

 

Angels are sons of God so they are in His image and we too are in God's image. 

[LifeHiscost]

Here the writer is using sarcasm to prove a point. He is not saying Jesus preexisted. And how do you know that God wasn't referring to Israel His son, His first born?

 

Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.

 

When God created in Genesis He was alone in His creative work.

 

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.

 

Are you saying God was not alone in His creative work?

Yes!

 

1I don’t want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters,^a about our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. All of them were guided by a cloud that moved ahead of them, and all of them walked through the sea on dry ground. 2In the cloud and in the sea, all of them were baptized as followers of Moses. 3All of them ate the same spiritual food, 4and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ. 5Yet God was not pleased with most of them, and their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.....1 Corinthian 10

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!  

[Lauralea]

In another sense they are but they are not created in His image in the same sense. Further they do not have creative power. Angels do not create human beings, or make anything else from scratch. Only God has creative power. 

[LifeHiscost]

The us in Genesis is not Jesus and the Father, it's the angelic host and the Father. 

Forgive me. I'm not trying to be smart, or sarcastic. But do you just pull these ideas out of a hat just because they come into your mind? Have you ever used the principle of allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves?

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!     

[Scuba]

Yes!

 

1I don’t want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters,^a about our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. All of them were guided by a cloud that moved ahead of them, and all of them walked through the sea on dry ground. 2In the cloud and in the sea, all of them were baptized as followers of Moses. 3All of them ate the same spiritual food, 4and all of them drank the same spiritual water. For they drank from the spiritual rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ. 5Yet God was not pleased with most of them, and their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.....1 Corinthian 10

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!  

 

Do you really think Jesus was a literal preexisted rock or a cloud or do you think he was speaking spiritually like it says. Spiritually speaking, the same way the rock helped them and the cloud guided them Jesus will do the same.

[Scuba]

Forgive me. I'm not trying to be smart, or sarcastic. But do you just pull these ideas out of a hat just because they come into your mind?

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!     

 

No need to ask for forgiveness. I'm not the only one who says these things. 

[Scuba]

In another sense they are but they are not created in His image in the same sense. Further they do not have creative power. Angels do not create human beings, or make anything else from scratch. Only God has creative power. 

 

Angels are not created in God's image in the same sense? Chapter and verse please. In what kind of image are we created to be like God? Are we invisible? Are we eternal? Are we omnipresent or all powerful or all knowing? Do you think that just maybe we were created righteous like God and His angelic host?

[Lauralea]

King James Bible
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

I have never seen a Bible text saying the angels are in God's image. They also do not have the power to create life, hence could not have created human beings. This power is given to God alone. Human beings have procreative power however: angels do not and in this respect we are like God but not identical to Him.

[Scuba]

King James Bible

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

I have never seen a Bible text saying the angels are in God's image. They also do not have the power to create life, hence could not have created human beings. This power is given to God alone. Human beings have procreative power however: angels do not and in this respect we are like God but not identical to Him.

 

Angels are sons of God and a son is just like his father,