God did not have a begotten Son prior to the birth of Jesus...

[Gregory Matthews]

Scuba said in post # 48:

 

 

 

No need to ask for forgiveness. I'm not the only one who says these things. [/quote]

 

 

Is the above another instance of you quoting what you had posted on another website and therefore, quoting yourself?  I am just asking.

 

The above comes from a post of yours in post # 42 and I wonder if it comes from another website the BCF, which evidently was your website and a place where you seem to have made a number of posts which you seem to have copied here.

 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.…Col 3

 

2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words....Col 2

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

When I posted Prov 30:4-6, you replied:

Here the writer is using sarcasm to prove a point. He is not saying Jesus preexisted. And how do you know that God wasn't referring to Israel His son, His first born?

...

 

The First and the Last Who was Sent by the LORD:

 

NKJ Isaiah 48:12-16   12 " Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.  13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.  14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.  15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.  16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

 

NKJ Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

 

Jesus Himself acknowledged that He was the One Sent by the LORD (Luke 4:18-21).

 

NKJ Luke 4:18-21   18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;  19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."  20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.  21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

 

The First and the Last Who was sent by the LORD said in Isa 48:13 "indeed my hand laid the foundation of the earth" in consonance with the record in Heb 1:10 of what God said of His Son:

 

NKJ Hebrews 1:8-10   8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

 

No wonder, the one who, long before Jesus was born in the flesh, wrote Proverbs 30:4 knew that God has a Son and asked:

 

NKJ Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?

 

Clearly, the Son referred to is NOT Israel, because Israel did not create the earth.

[Scuba]

 

Scuba said in post # 48:

 

 

 

Berean Christian Fellowship is my website with my studies and my thoughts. I refer to it because I have hundreds of hours of research and Bible study into the website so it's easier for me to just refer to it rather than having to look up the verses again and again.

[Scuba]

When I posted Prov 30:4-6, you replied:

 

The First and the Last Who was Sent by the LORD:

 

NKJ Isaiah 48:12-16   12 " Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.  13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.  14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.  15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.  16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

 

NKJ Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

 

Jesus Himself acknowledged that He was the One Sent by the LORD (Luke 4:18-21).

 

NKJ Luke 4:18-21   18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;  19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."  20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.  21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

 

The First and the Last Who was sent by the LORD said in Isa 48:13 "indeed my hand laid the foundation of the earth" in consonance with the record in Heb 1:10 of what God said of His Son:

 

NKJ Hebrews 1:8-10   8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

 

No wonder, the one who, long before Jesus was born in the flesh, wrote Proverbs 30:4 knew that God has a Son and asked:

 

NKJ Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?

 

Clearly, the Son referred to is NOT Israel, because Israel did not create the earth.

 

Have you ever heard of the two creations? One refers to the Genesis creation and the other is the new creation, the age/world to come, the kingdom of God.

[Samie]

Have you ever heard of the two creations? One refers to the Genesis creation and the other is the new creation, the age/world to come, the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of God to come is yet future.

 

But the plain language in Isaiah says "my hand has laid the foundations of the earth" NOT "my hand will lay the foundation of the world to come".

[Scuba]

The kingdom of God to come is yet future.

 

But the plain language in Isaiah says "my hand has laid the foundations of the earth" NOT "my hand will lay the foundation of the world to come".

 

There is the Genesis creation with the birds, trees, fish stars and so on and then there is the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God was established by Jesus it has to do with principles that Jesus taught, it's about the church, it's about rulers of darkness being put in submission. The kingdom of God is here now, inwardly as a spiritual aspect of God's kingdom God's people should be living kingdom principles now. When Jesus comes again to set up His literal kingdom here on earth He is coming to remove OUT OF HIS KINGDOM (which is here right now in spiritual form) all those who practice lawlessness and things that offend.

 

Notice how when Jesus comes, He is coming to remove out of His kingdom, that means there is a spiritual aspect of His kingdom here right now.

 

Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

This is the new creation the God created through Jesus, not the Genesis creation. This new creation in the kingdom of God and has to do with the church, rulers, principalities and powers in heaven and on earth. This is not birds, trees and fish and so on in the Genesis creation. The new creation has to do with the government of God under the ruler-ship of Jesus. Listen.

 

Colossians 1:15-18 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

 

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead in the above verse, not the firstborn of Genesis creation. He is before all things as preeminence, not in time. He is the ruler, the head of God's government, the beginning of this new creation, the firstborn from the dead so that He could be ruler of all. Jesus is the beginning of God's new creation.

 

Revelation 3:14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

[Samie]

There is the Genesis creation with the birds, trees, fish stars and so on and then there is the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God was established by Jesus it has to do with principles that Jesus taught, it's about the church, it's about rulers of darkness being put in submission. The kingdom of God is here now, inwardly as a spiritual aspect of God's kingdom God's people should be living kingdom principles now. ...

 

 

I have NOTHING against the new creation. Both you and I know it.

 

But there is SOMETHING, which to me, you haven't adequately addressed.

 

In post #54, Scriptures were provided telling us that Jesus was the First and the Last Whom the Father sent. In that post, He Who was sent proclaimed PRIOR to the sending: "my hands laid the foundation of the earth and my right hand has streched out the heavens", a statement corroborated by the Father Himself in Heb 1:8-10.  It is clear that Foundation LAYING preceded the SENDING.

 

Your responses indicate that the earth and heavens therein mentioned, refer to the new creation. If that were so then, the SENDING preceded the foundation LAYING.

 

Any explanation?

[Scuba]

I have NOTHING against the new creation. Both you and I know it.

 

But there is SOMETHING, which to me, you haven't adequately addressed.

 

In post #54, Scriptures were provided telling us that Jesus was the First and the Last Whom the Father sent. In that post, He Who was sent proclaimed PRIOR to the sending: "my hands laid the foundation of the earth and my right hand has streched out the heavens", a statement corroborated by the Father Himself in Heb 1:8-10.  It is clear that Foundation LAYING preceded the SENDING.

 

Your responses indicate that the earth and heavens therein mentioned, refer to the new creation. If that were so then, the SENDING preceded the foundation LAYING.

 

Any explanation?

 

Some verses are hard to sort through because of how our Bibles have been tweaked such as the coma when Jesus said, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise". Hebrews 1:1-10 pulls prophetic language directed towards a human king from the Old Testament and connects it with the New Testament, which makes it tricky to sort through but the whole context of Hebrews 1:1-10 is talking about laying the foundation for the heaven and earth in the world to come. It confirms this when it comes right out and says it is referring to the world to come, not the Genesis creation. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead as the beginning of this new creation. When God brings Jesus into the world (again), referring to His resurrection, God gives Jesus a new name and all the angels are to worship Him. It's important to use the whole Bible to interpret the verses, especially when a verse seems to contradict the whole Bible. Remember, the title (God) is not a personal name for any one being, Satan is called the god of this world. The title (God) is a term given to one who has authority and since Jesus was given all authority by His Father He has the title God. You will see that Jesus has many of the same tiles as His Father but He is not the Father even some human kings in times past were given similar titles.

[Samie]

Some verses are hard to sort through because of how our Bibles have been tweaked ...

 

Where do you see the "tweaking" occurred in these verses?

 

NKJ Isaiah 48:12-16   12 " Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.  13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.  14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.  15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.  16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

[8thdaypriest]

Scuba, I hope I can apply the thought you've shared:

"It's best to look at one verse at a time because it can become overwhelming to answer so many at once.

In order to understand the existence of Jesus prior to His birth you have to understand how the Hebrew mindset thinks." I agree.

________

Micha 5:2 speaks about the ruler in Israel coming out of Bethlehem. Of course this scripture was understood by the Jews to apply to the Messiah. The text speaks of Him "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

 

The Jews themselves translate the text - "...whose origin is from of old, from ancient times." (Tanakh.)

 

From this, E.J. Waggoner [and others in our early days,] were teaching that "there was a time when Christ proceeded forth from God, from the bosom of the Father..., but that time was so far back in the days of eternity, that to finite comprehension it is practically without beginning." (Christ and His Righteousness p.22) I struggled with this concept, but now I readily accept it. To my mind the common cell division (mitosis) gives a crude (but wonderful) picture of how I believe Christ originated. When a cell replicates it cannot be said that either one of the "new" cells preceded the other; both existed in the original 'body'. This natural process illustrates, I believe, how it was with the Father and Christ. Neither one preceded the other, but there was a time when they were physically, literally, One.

I'm with you on this one Stewart.

[Scuba]

Where do you see the "tweaking" occurred in these verses?

 

NKJ Isaiah 48:12-16   12 " Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.  13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.  14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.  15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.  16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

 

I don't believe the man Jesus existed prior to His birth. So what form did Jesus have in the Old Testament? We know His name wasn't Jesus until His birth. Some believe He was Michael but that seems to conflict with NT Scripture. Some say He is the Father making only one God. Some say He didn't literally existed prior to His birth. What do you say?

[8thdaypriest]

Interesting thread! 

Some believe that God's Son did not exist until He was conceived by God's Spirit in the womb of Mary.

Some believe that He had no "beginning".  He was co-existent with the Father, and another divine being called "the Spirit" from eternity.

Some - like me - believe that God's Son was "begotten" from His Father, before the creation of anything.  (I do not believe "the Spirit" is a third divine being.) 

 

Cell division - the process resulting in identical twins - crudely represents how the Father produced the Son from Himself.  He - the originally existent One - had to decide to produce another being "in his express image" (Heb. 1:3).   An express image, represents an exact copy.  The Son was an exact copy of His Father, which would mean that they were BOTH divine (omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent).

 

The Son existed from eternity, in the same sense that Levi existed with "the loins of Abraham". 

 

The plan of salvation required TWO divine beings.  One must continue to uphold all things, while the Other became mortal (NOT omnipotent) and then lay dead. 

If Christ was NOT originally 100% divine, then God did NOT die for our Sins. 

 

The Father foreknew that creation of beings with free will, would ultimately necessitate His death.

But He could not actually, truly DIE, while upholding all things.

There had to be TWO of HIM. 

 

There is a series of studies at my website, which question the doctrine of the Trinity, and presents Christ as originally begotten FROM His Father.

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Scuba]

Sometimes I try to view God in three parts just like we view ourselves. We view ourselves in three parts, two of our parts can't be seen (the spirit and soul) but one of our parts can be seen (the body). God is made up of Spirit (unseen Spirit), Father (unseen soul) and Son (tangible manifestation of God, body). The tangible manifestation of God became a man named Jesus. Not sure if this fits.

[Scuba]

Interesting thread! 

Some believe that God's Son did not exist until He was conceived by God's Spirit in the womb of Mary.

Some believe that He had no "beginning".  He was co-existent with the Father, and another divine being called "the Spirit" from eternity.

Some - like me - believe that God's Son was "begotten" from His Father, before the creation of anything.  (I do not believe "the Spirit" is a third divine being.) 

 

Cell division - the process resulting in identical twins - crudely represents how the Father produced the Son from Himself.  He - the originally existent One - had to decide to produce another being "in his express image" (Heb. 1:3).   An express image, represents an exact copy.  The Son was an exact copy of His Father, which would mean that they were BOTH divine (omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent).

 

The Son existed from eternity, in the same sense that Levi existed with "the loins of Abraham". 

 

The plan of salvation required TWO divine beings.  One must continue to uphold all things, while the Other became mortal (NOT omnipotent) and then lay dead. 

If Christ was NOT originally 100% divine, then God did NOT die for our Sins. 

 

The Father foreknew that creation of beings with free will, would ultimately necessitate His death.

But He could not actually, truly DIE, while upholding all things.

There had to be TWO of HIM. 

 

There is a series of studies at my website, which question the doctrine of the Trinity, and presents Christ as originally begotten FROM His Father.

 

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

 

Have you ever done a study on the "Aleph Tav" in the Scriptures? You will be amazed!

[8thdaypriest]

Have you ever done a study on the "Aleph Tav" in the Scriptures? You will be amazed!

Yes.  I have the Aleph-Tav Bible with every Aleph-Tav highlighted.

[JoeMo]

8thdaypriestsays:

"Some - like me - believe that God's Son was "begotten" from His Father, before the creation of anything. (I do not believe "the Spirit" is a third divine being.)"

 

I agree.  I think this is wahat the writer of Proverbs was talking about in Proverbs 8 where (IMO) the Being who became Jesus is saying:

 

²²“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
²³ I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
²⁴ When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water;
²⁵ before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
²⁶ before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth.
²⁷ I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
²⁸ when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
²⁹ when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
³⁰ Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
³¹ rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind."

 

The jury is still out for me on the HS as a 3rd Person of the Trinity.  Sometimes, I am tempted to view the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ - the "God Stuff" He had to leave behind in heaven to become fully human.  I say this because Jesus said He could not send the Comfortoer unless he went away.  Why else would Jesus say "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (John 16:7)

 

Earlier in the gospel Jesus says "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; ¹⁷ Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. ¹⁸ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." (John 14:16-18)

 

Is the Spirit of Christ the Comforter?

[Samie]

I don't believe the man Jesus existed prior to His birth. So what form did Jesus have in the Old Testament? We know His name wasn't Jesus until His birth. Some believe He was Michael but that seems to conflict with NT Scripture. Some say He is the Father making only one God. Some say He didn't literally existed prior to His birth. What do you say?

I simply believe what Scriptures say.

 

1. That He existed from eternity past:

 

NKJ Micah 5:2 " But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."

 

2. That the Father created all things through Him:

 

NKJ Colossians 1:16-17   16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.  17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

 

3. That He is the First and the Last Whom the Father & His Spirit sent (see post #54 for the other Bible verses):

 

NKJ Revelation 1:17-18   17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.  18 "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

 

4. That He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world:

 

NKJ Revelation 13:8   All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

 

5. That in Him was God's grace given us before time began:

 

NKJ 2 Timothy 1:9   who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

 

6. That through Him we were predestined for adoption when the Father chose us before the foundation of the world:

 

NKJ Ephesians 1:3-5   3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,  5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

 

7. That He existed as God the Father's Son was a known fact before His earthly birth:

 

NKJ Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?

[Scuba]

I simply believe what Scriptures say.

 

1. That He existed from eternity past:

 

NKJ Micah 5:2 " But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."

 

 

This above verse is talking about God's plan that from before the world, before sin, before any of us did good or evil God already had His plan to save. We see the same thing when God says that Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world, in His plan, but Jesus wasn't literally crucified until just over 2000 years ago. When you read your Bible you will find that Jesus was in fact foreordained before the foundation of the world in seed form. He was the seed of Eve, the seed of Abraham, the seed of David and the seed of Mary. Read Matthew chapter 1 and Luke 3:21-38.

 

2. That the Father created all things through Him:

 

NKJ Colossians 1:16-17   16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.  17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

 

 

How do you know that its not speaking of the kingdom of God, which is all about the government of God. I see in the above verses a governmental structure being put in place, not a Genesis creation with its birds, trees, fish and so on.

 

3. That He is the First and the Last Whom the Father & His Spirit sent (see post #54 for the other Bible verses):

 

NKJ Revelation 1:17-18   17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.  18 "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

 

 

 

I agree that there are some verses that are tricky but we know that when God sends someone He puts His name in them so we should expect to see similar names given to the Son. Some of these very same names are also used for earthly kings.

 

4. That He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world:

 

NKJ Revelation 13:8   All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

 

 

Amen, God had a plan from the beginning but it didn't become reality until just over 2000 years ago, unless you believe Jesus was literally  crucified before Genesis.

 

 

5. That in Him was God's grace given us before time began:

 

NKJ 2 Timothy 1:9   who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

 

 

Anything given to us before time is referring to God's plan, not a literal reality. 

 

6. That through Him we were predestined for adoption when the Father chose us before the foundation of the world:

 

NKJ Ephesians 1:3-5   3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,  5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

 

 

 

Again, all according to His plan. Jeremiah was known before the world began, ordained before the world began but he wasn't born to fulfill God's plan many, many years after.

 

7. That He existed as God the Father's Son was a known fact before His earthly birth:

 

NKJ Proverbs 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know?

 

 

I don't know if I would build a doctrine from a verse that was using sarcasm. Jesus didn't get His name until the angel overshadowed Mary and conceived a baby in her womb. It was because of this, not before, that this baby shall be called Jesus.

 

I am open to hear how The Son of God had a literal existence prior to His birth. I think is was the eternal Spirit of God manifesting all throughout the Old Testament, not a Son. It was the eternal Spirit that manifested as Jesus just over 2000 years ago. Prior to this it was just God working through His Spirit. Now f you want to say that the Spirit of God is His Son in the Old Testament I might go with that.

[Samie]

If, relative to Christ's pre-existence, you can't accept what Scriptures EXPLICITLY say, what will you possibly accept instead?

 

Isa 48:12-16 CLEARLY recorded that the ONE SENT said "Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens", and then proclaimed: "And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me."

 

Did you notice how Scriptures recorded the sequence of events? His laying of earth's foundations and stretching out of the heavens PRECEDED His being sent. How could He lay the foundation of the earth BEFORE He was sent when He did not pre-exist his earthly birth?

 

Truly, this statement of the Savior, exudes the veracity of His pre-existence:

 

John 17:5   "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

[8thdaypriest]

Here is how the Complete Jewish Bible translates Micah 5:2.

 

"But you, Beit-Lechem near Efrat, so small among the clans of Y'hudah, out of you will come forth to me the future ruler of Isra'el, whose origins are far in the past, back in ancient times."

 

Here is the NIV.

 

 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

 

Here's the NRS.

 

"But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days."

 

The "goings forth" from the KJV is translated "origins". 

The "everlasting" is translated "ancient days". 

 

God the Father had NO ORIGIN - NO BEGINNING. 

The Son did originate - from the Father.

 

The Hebrew word translated "everlasting" in the KJV, is elsewhere translated "ancient times" when the verse is speaking of other things, like "the hills" or the "stars" which we know did begin at creation, or have been in existence for a very long time. 

 

Micah 5:2 is NOT saying that the Son of God has ALWAYS existed. 

We know from other passages that He "came forth from the Father" (John 16:28). 

THEN He created everything else.

THEN He was "sent" into this world.

[8thdaypriest]

Isaiah 48:16  "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit" (NIV).

 

"And now the Lord GOD has sent me and his spirit" (NRS).

 

"and now Adonai ELOHIM has sent me and his Spirit" (CJB).

 

"And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit" (NAU).

 

In the above versions, the Father SENDS the Son, and His spirit.  I like the NIV - "endowed with His Spirit". 

The Father does the sending. 

 

ONLY the KJV and NKJV arrange the words to say "the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me."  This is the ONLY version which could be used to support the concept of a Trinity of three divine persons. 

 

John 6:57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me" (NKJ).

 

John 5:37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." (NKJ)

 

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (NKJ)

 

NOTE:  Jesus DID NOT SAY "the Spirit who sent me". 

 

John 8:16 "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me." (NKJ)

 

John 8:18 "I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me." (NKJ)

 

TWO WITNESSES:  The Father AND The Son

 

John 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (NKJ)

 

John 17:21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me." (NKJ)

 

NOTE:  This verse also tells us just WHO the Spirit was that indwelt Christ.  "You, Father, are in Me."  

And then there is John 14:10 "the Father who dwells in Me does the works".  His miracles were NOT done by the power of angels. 

Acts 2:22  "Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst" (NAU).

 

John 17:25 "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me." (NKJ)

 

John 20:21 "So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." (NKJ)

 

1 John 4:14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." (NKJ)

 

NOT ONE of these verses says that the Father AND the Spirit have sent the Son. 

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Scuba]

How would you interpret this verse?

Romans 8: 9-10 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

[JoeMo]

Looking at Romans 8 in context, IMO this passage simply contracts a Spirit-led life vs. a lust (flesh; wordly) - led life. I Cor. 2:14 says " The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

2 Cor. 5 :17 states "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" Basically, it is saying that spiritual things are only spiritually discerned. Eph 2: 4-5 says "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Not that this has anything to do with the sonship of Jesus ...

[Scuba]

Looking at Romans 8 in context, IMO this passage simply contracts a Spirit-led life vs. a lust (flesh; wordly) - led life. I Cor. 2:14 says " The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."

2 Cor. 5 :17 states "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" Basically, it is saying that spiritual things are only spiritually discerned. Eph 2: 4-5 says "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Not that this has anything to do with the sonship of Jesus ...

 

Romans 8: 9-10 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 

 

The above verse equates the Spirit of God with the Spirit of Christ. If you have the Spirit of God you have the Spirit of Christ because they are one in the same.