God did not have a begotten Son prior to the birth of Jesus...

[LifeHiscost]

 

How many thrones are in heaven? To me there is one throne for the Father and one throne for the Son. The eternal Spirit of God manifested as the burning bush, the pillar of fire and pillar of smoke and the man Jesus all while being omnipresent. 

 

John 1:48-50 Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”

Perhaps at present that's the extent. Seems the more important thing to think about for those who intend to be there, is listed elsewhere after the last trump.

 

28And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.…Matt 19.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

The Trinitarian baptismal formula: Matthew 28:19

 

Background:
    In 303 AD, the Emperor Diocletian ordered all sacred Scriptures of the Christians to be burned.  Certainly many original manuscripts and copies of those originals were destroyed.  Shortly afterward the Emperor Constantine halted persecution of Christians and issued the Edict of Milan (313) which declared freedom of worship for citizens of the Roman Empire.
    
     Eusebius, who lived from 270 to 360 (aprox) was historian and Bishop of Caesarea. The Christian “church” grew so rapidly that the Emperor requested Eusebius supervise the copying of  fifty new copies of the Scripture for the churches of Constantinople.   We must remember that these new copies were commissioned by Emperor Constantine, who may have influenced the process.

     Eusebius lived, till about 40 years of age in great intimacy with the martyr Pamphilus, a learned and devout man of Caesarea, and founder of an extensive library there, from which Eusebius derived his vast store of learning. (Dr. Wescott, in “General Survey,” page 108) Eusebius was a master of the Greek.  

    In his advanced age, Eusebius quoted the Trinitarian baptismal formula twice, but by this time he had lived under the domination of the Emperor Constantine for many years.  Prior to this, he quotes Matthew 28:19 using the singular (“in My name”) some 18 times.        

1.  From “The Demonstratio Evangelica” by Eusebius, who quotes Matthew 28:19:
 
    “With one word and voice He said to His disciples, ‘Go, and make disciples of all nations in My name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.’”

    “For he did not enjoin them ‘to make disciples of all the nations’ simply and without qualification, but with the essential addition ‘in his name’. For so great was the virtue attaching to his appellation that the Apostle says, ‘YHWH bestowed on him the name above every name, that in the name of Yehushua every knee shall bow of things in heaven and on earth and under the earth.’ It was right therefore that he should emphasize the virtue of the power residing in his name but hidden from the many, and therefore say to his Apostles, ‘Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations in my name’” (col. 240, p. 136).

2.  From “The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol II, page 263:

    “The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic church in the second century.”  

    The second century (100 to 200) came before Constantine legalized Christianity in 313, and set up the “catholic” church within the Roman Empire with himself as head.  It is difficult to know for certain just what “the church” did during those years of persecution.  We have only limited writings of the early church “fathers”, and no surviving copies of the NT Scriptures from the first century.  

3.  Here is a link to a very interesting article on facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/church-of-the-living-el-%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95%D7%94-jerusalem/the-matthew-2819-forgery/607126512641911
 

[8thdaypriest]

The Baptismal Formula:

 

    Acts 2:38  “Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

    Acts 8:16  “For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 19:5  “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

    Romans 6:3 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

If the LORD had commanded the Triune formula, then why were the disciples out baptizing in only the name of Jesus?

 

"There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

[CherylG]

Scuba,

 

You have asked for scripture verses; 

 

In John 3:16,17 it say's: 

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 

 

* These verses tell us that God had a begotten Son and he loved His Son and sent him into the world to save mankind.

* This Son is begotten before he is sent into to word.

 

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.  

 

* Clearly Jesus had an existence before the world was even created.

 

Where do we find this information?  

 

Read this:

 

 

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:  

 

* Christ is wisdom to us.

 

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:  

             1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.  

 

* The Spirit of Christ,  {which was in the prophets} testified through the prophets beforehand {before it happened} of his own {Christ's} sufferings 

 

* Speaking under the title of wisdom in the old testament we are given a vital piece of information.

 

Proverbs 8:22-30

 

 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.  

 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.  

 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.  

 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:  

 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:  

 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:  

 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;  

 

* Christ speaks under the title of wisdom

* These verses tell us that The Son of God was set up from the beginning before there was ever an earth made.

* Before anything was made God's Son was brought forth. As John 3:16 tells us he(the Son of God) is begotten.

* When the Son of God was by His Fathers side then the world was created.

* We are not to understand how the Son was begotten from the Father but to believe by faith.

* The Son was brought forth, came from, issued out of, came out of the Father. Because He is the Son of God he rightfully takes the same name of the Father because he is the Son of God.

 

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he {the Son} hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.  

 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?  

 

* It was ONLY to His Son that he gave a more excellent name be cause he (his Son) had obtained it by inheritance. WHY? because he was God's Son. A Son rightfully takes the name of his Father.

 

Hebrews

1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 

 

* God (the Father) made the worlds through His Son 

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

 

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?  

 

* Clearly this shows 2 divine beings here: Father and Son.

 

**Clearly the scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the same Son of God who was begotten before the worlds were made. 

[LifeHiscost]

 

Scuba,

 

You have asked for scripture verses;

 

**Clearly the scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the same Son of God who was begotten before the worlds were made. 

 

:love: ::like:: :announce:

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

Scriptures are clear. Jesus was the Father's begotten even before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. And from Jesus' words that majority of Christians have memorized:

 

NKJ John 3:16   "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

We cannot give what we don't have. The Father already HAD His begotten Son before the Father can give Him to the world.

[Scuba]

You have asked for scripture verses; 

 

In John 3:16,17 it say's: 

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 

 

* These verses tell us that God had a begotten Son and he loved His Son and sent him into the world to save mankind.

* This Son is begotten before he is sent into to word.

 

 

 

 We are sent into the world just like Jesus is sent into the world. That does not mean we came from heaven or outer space.

 

John 17:18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

 

John was also sent from God but we know he didn't come from outer space.

 

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

 

This is a horizontal sending, not a vertical sending. 

 

 

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.  

 

* Clearly Jesus had an existence before the world was even created.

 

 

 

What is the glory Jesus is referring to? Is the glory He had referring to God's plan, which was prophesied all throughout the OT. The glory Jesus had with the Father is that the Father would have a future Son who would be seated at His right hand? Every verse in the OT that refers to Jesus is always in prophetic language, in other words, something that was to happen in the future.

 

Where do we find this information?  

 

Read this:

 

 

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:  

 

* Christ is wisdom to us.

 

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:  

             1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.  

 

* The Spirit of Christ,  {which was in the prophets} testified through the prophets beforehand {before it happened} of his own {Christ's} sufferings 

 

* Speaking under the title of wisdom in the old testament we are given a vital piece of information.

 

Amen! This is all referring to the glory Jesus had in the plan of His Father. Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world according to His Father's plan but He wasn't literally crucified until just over 2000 years ago.

 

Proverbs 8:22-30

 

 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.  

 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.  

 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.  

 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:  

 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:  

 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:  

 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;  

 

* Christ speaks under the title of wisdom

 

* These verses tell us that The Son of God was set up from the beginning before there was ever an earth made.

 

* Before anything was made God's Son was brought forth. As John 3:16 tells us he(the Son of God) is begotten.

 

* When the Son of God was by His Fathers side then the world was created.

 

* We are not to understand how the Son was begotten from the Father but to believe by faith.

 

* The Son was brought forth, came from, issued out of, came out of the Father. Because He is the Son of God he rightfully takes the same name of the Father because he is the Son of God.

 

The context of Proverbs 8 is wisdom is a lady and I guess wisdom has a cousin too called, understanding.

 

Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out, and understanding lift up her voice?

 

You can't equate poetic language with being the man Jesus.

 

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he {the Son} hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.  

 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?  

 

* It was ONLY to His Son that he gave a more excellent name be cause he (his Son) had obtained it by inheritance. WHY? because he was God's Son. A Son rightfully takes the name of his Father.

 

 

Do you realize that all this took place as a result of His obedience, death and resurrection? Nothing literally prior to His birth.

 

Hebrews

1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 

 

* God (the Father) made the worlds through His Son 

 

 

The word, (worlds) in the above verse is the word (Age) and it's referring to the age to come, not the Geneses creation. Listen to how it is conferred in the context.

 

Hebrews 2:5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

 

The world to come is referring to the new creation which God created through Jesus, not the Genesis creation.

 

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

 

 

Amen! God's plan was hidden in Him. He revealed it to His people over time all throughout the OT. Jesus was in fact foreordained before the foundation of the world as being in God's plan.

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment?who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?  

 

* Clearly this shows 2 divine beings here: Father and Son.

 

**Clearly the scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the same Son of God who was begotten before the worlds were made. 

 

 

The above verse is using sarcasm. It's not reaching the doctrine of God's Son. The name of God's Son is Jesus, which He did not get that name until He was born.

 

Matthew 1:20-21 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

 

Jesus became God's Son as a result of His birth through Mary, just as the angel clearly said. Notice the word, (Therefore) or (Because of this). The Spirit miraculously conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary, therefore or because of this, He shall be called the Son of God.

 

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

 

​Because Jesus was conceived by God's Spirit He is to be called the Son of God.

[8thdaypriest]

Scuba, I hope I can apply the thought you've shared:

"It's best to look at one verse at a time because it can become overwhelming to answer so many at once.

In order to understand the existence of Jesus prior to His birth you have to understand how the Hebrew mindset thinks." I agree.

________

Micha 5:2 speaks about the ruler in Israel coming out of Bethlehem. Of course this scripture was understood by the Jews to apply to the Messiah. The text speaks of Him "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

 

The Jews themselves translate the text - "...whose origin is from of old, from ancient times." (Tanakh.)

 

From this, E.J. Waggoner [and others in our early days,] were teaching that "there was a time when Christ proceeded forth from God, from the bosom of the Father..., but that time was so far back in the days of eternity, that to finite comprehension it is practically without beginning." (Christ and His Righteousness p.22) I struggled with this concept, but now I readily accept it. To my mind the common cell division (mitosis) gives a crude (but wonderful) picture of how I believe Christ originated. When a cell replicates it cannot be said that either one of the "new" cells preceded the other; both existed in the original 'body'. This natural process illustrates, I believe, how it was with the Father and Christ. Neither one preceded the other, but there was a time when they were physically, literally, One.

If one cell simply divided, so that neither of the two resulting cells (Divine Beings) existed "first", then why call one "Father" and the other "Son? ? 

 

Why was the Son subordinate to the Father - always?

Creation was the Father's will, and the Son carried out that will.

 

The Father "is the head of Christ" and always has been.

Why did the Father have the authority, and the Son "received authority" ?

 

Why - as the final act in the drama - after death itself is destroyed, will Christ be subject to His Father ?

The Father will then be "all in all".

 

"Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." (1Co 15:28 NKJ)

 

The Father's authority is original.

The Son's authority is derived - from His Father. 

 

Jesus said, "I came forth from the Father" (Jn 16:28).

 

I believe that He literally DID.

 

Blessings

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

I realize it is crude - but I think that a clone, fits the process, more than simply cell division. 

 

A clone is an EXACT COPY - right down to the DNA.

 

The Son was the "express image" of His Father.

[Stewart (SDA)]

I realize it is crude - but I think that a clone, fits the process, more than simply cell division. 

 

A clone is an EXACT COPY - right down to the DNA.

 

The Son was the "express image" of His Father.

 

 

The Son is the Father's "express image", I would suggest, in terms of nature and character. Physically the Son was not an exact copy of the Father, was He?

 

I return to an earlier thought for a minute.

 

The Son has always taken the role of Mediator, I believe.  He has always been the link between Divinity and His creatures... And even in heaven this was applied inasmuch as He (in the form of an angel) was the link between God and His created beings.

 

As Michael, God could approach the angels, and they could approach Him.

 

And with regards to the angels, Michael was Immanuel; He was truly God with them, truly God among them.

It has always been in God's heart to come close to His creatures.

[Scuba]

The Son is the Father's "express image", I would suggest, in terms of nature and character. Physically the Son was not an exact copy of the Father, was He?

 

I return to an earlier thought for a minute.

 

The Son has always taken the role of Mediator, I believe.  He has always been the link between Divinity and His creatures... And even in heaven this was applied inasmuch as He (in the form of an angel) was the link between God and His created beings.

 

As Michael, God could approach the angels, and they could approach Him.

 

And with regards to the angels, Michael was Immanuel; He was truly God with them, truly God among them.

It has always been in God's heart to come close to His creatures.

 

How do you get around these verses?

 

Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”? 

 

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”

 

Hebrews 2:5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

[8thdaypriest]

The Son is the Father's "express image", I would suggest, in terms of nature and character. Physically the Son was not an exact copy of the Father, was He?

 

I return to an earlier thought for a minute.

 

The Son has always taken the role of Mediator, I believe.  He has always been the link between Divinity and His creatures... And even in heaven this was applied inasmuch as He (in the form of an angel) was the link between God and His created beings.

 

As Michael, God could approach the angels, and they could approach Him.

 

And with regards to the angels, Michael was Immanuel; He was truly God with them, truly God among them.

It has always been in God's heart to come close to His creatures.

 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,  (Heb 1:1 KJV)

This is a description of the pre-incarnate Son of God. 

 

Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Phi 2:6 NAU)

 

Paul write that He "existed in the form of God, but remained subordinate, and did not seek to be equal.

As Satan did grasp at such a position. 

 

There is no mention of the Spirit as a third divine being, in these verses.

[Scuba]

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,  (Heb 1:1 KJV)

This is a description of the pre-incarnate Son of God. 

 

Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Phi 2:6 NAU)

 

Paul write that He "existed in the form of God, but remained subordinate, and did not seek to be equal.

As Satan did grasp at such a position. 

 

There is no mention of the Spirit as a third divine being, in these verses.

Hebrews chapter 1 is referring to Jesus after his birth, not before his birth.

Jesus was given the title, God, because He was God's representative. This was after his birth. Givng the title, god, to a human is not unusual, even Satan himself has the title god of this world. The title, God, means you have authority.

[8thdaypriest]

 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,  (Heb 1:1 KJV)

 

Jesus - as a human being - was NOT "upholding all things by the word of his power". 

The Son of God emptied Himself of all divine power, before He came in the nature of Abraham.

 

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death (Heb 2:9 NKJ)

 

He was "upholding all things by the word of His power"  THEN he was "made a little lower than the angels".  THEN:

 

The rest of the verse reads:

"when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;" (Heb 1:3 KJV).

[Scuba]

 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,  (Heb 1:1 KJV)

 

Jesus - as a human being - was NOT "upholding all things by the word of his power". 

The Son of God emptied Himself of all divine power, before He came in the nature of Abraham.

 

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death (Heb 2:9 NKJ)

 

He was "upholding all things by the word of His power"  THEN he was "made a little lower than the angels".  THEN:

 

The rest of the verse reads:

"when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;" (Heb 1:3 KJV).

 

You don't think all this all could have happen after His birth? What is the word of His power? Was His word or His Father's word? Who did all the miraculous things? Was it Him or His Father working through Him? Jesus was fully God and fully man. Who was the fully God side of Jesus? Was it the Father? Who was the human side of Jesus? Was His human side eternal or did it start at His birth? If the God said was the Father and we know that Jesus is not the Father and the human side of Jesus had its beginning in Mary where does Michael and preexistence fit in?

[8thdaypriest]

Hebrews chapter 1 is referring to Jesus after his birth, not before his birth.

Jesus was given the title, God, because He was God's representative. This was after his birth. Givng the title, god, to a human is not unusual, even Satan himself has the title god of this world. The title, God, means you have authority.

so Scuba,

You're saying that Philippians 2:6 is "AFTER His birth" ??

 

Philippians 2:6 "who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped" (NAU).

 

And if the Son existed only in the MIND of the Father, before His incarnation in the womb of Mary, then HOW would he "grasp" equality with His Father, BEFORE.

[8thdaypriest]

You don't think all this all could have happen after His birth? What is the word of His power? Was His word or His Father's word? Who did all the miraculous things? Was it Him or His Father working through Him? Jesus was fully God and fully man. Who was the fully God side of Jesus? Was it the Father? Who was the human side of Jesus? Was His human side eternal or did it start at His birth? If the God said was the Father and we know that Jesus is not the Father and the human side of Jesus had its beginning in Mary where does Michael and preexistence fit in?

The "word of His power" was NO LONGER HIS during HIs life in the flesh of a man.  

He "emptied Himself" of HIs divine power BEFORE He incarnated.

He must life as a man among men.  He must overcome as a man. 

 

If He did NOT EXIST before His incarnation, how could He have "emptied Himself" (made Himself of no reputation)  ??

 

Philippians 2:6 "who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery (something to be grasped) to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, (emptied Himself) taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Phi 2:6 NKJ)

 

He is OBVIOUSLY "in the FORM of God" BEFORE He "takes the FORM of a bondservant" - "the likeness of men".

 

He "made Himself of no reputation".

He took "the form of a bondservant".

He came "in the likeness of men".

ALL by His OWN voluntary WILL.

He had to EXIST in order to use HIS OWN WILL.

[8thdaypriest]

John 6:62 "Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? (NRS)

[Scuba]

John 6:62 "Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? (NRS)

This is taking about His resurrecting.

[Scuba]

The "word of His power" was NO LONGER HIS during HIs life in the flesh of a man.  

He "emptied Himself" of HIs divine power BEFORE He incarnated.

He must life as a man among men.  He must overcome as a man. 

 

If He did NOT EXIST before His incarnation, how could He have "emptied Himself" (made Himself of no reputation)  ??

 

Philippians 2:6 "who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery (something to be grasped) to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, (emptied Himself) taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. (Phi 2:6 NKJ)

 

He is OBVIOUSLY "in the FORM of God" BEFORE He "takes the FORM of a bondservant" - "the likeness of men".

 

He "made Himself of no reputation".

He took "the form of a bondservant".

He came "in the likeness of men".

ALL by His OWN voluntary WILL.

He had to EXIST in order to use HIS OWN WILL.

This is talking about what happened after His birth. Though He was the Son of God He humbled Himself. Though He was the form of God He humbled Himself. This was after His birth. Jesus could asked His Father to send 12 legions of angles but He didn't. Jesus is God's Son so in that position He could have done many things but He didn't because He took on the form of a servant. As the Son of God He should have been served but instead He served. This was all after His birth.

[8thdaypriest]

This is talking about what happened after His birth. Though He was the Son of God He humbled Himself. Though He was the form of God He humbled Himself. This was after His birth. Jesus could asked His Father to send 12 legions of angles but He didn't. Jesus is God's Son so in that position He could have done many things but He didn't because He took on the form of a servant. As the Son of God He should have been served but instead He served. This was all after His birth.Scuba.

Just because you keep repeating that all this was AFTER His birth, does NOT MAKE IT SO.

 

He was in the FORM OF GOD, and humbled Himself to take the FORM of the bondservant, to come in the "likeness of men".

 

BEFORE He came, He was NOT "in the likeness of men".

 

And yes, I realize I am repeating also......

 

I think the WEIGHT is on the side of His pre-existence, as the divine Son of the Father.  

[Scuba]

Just because you keep repeating that all this was AFTER His birth, does NOT MAKE IT SO.

 

He was in the FORM OF GOD, and humbled Himself to take the FORM of the bondservant, to come in the "likeness of men".

 

BEFORE He came, He was NOT "in the likeness of men".

 

And yes, I realize I am repeating also......

 

I think the WEIGHT is on the side of His pre-existence, as the divine Son of the Father.

If you put everything on a balance you are probably right that the scale will to tip towards preexistence but a bridge still needs needs to be built connecting Jesus with Michael. The NT is clear that no angel took on flesh.

[JoeMo]

Is this thread about Jesus being Michael or Jesus having a pre-existence?  I thought it was the latter.  There might be some plausible arguments about Jesus not being Michael; but there is no doubt (at least in my mind) that the being that became Jesus was around a LONG time before He was Jesus.

[Scuba]

Is this thread about Jesus being Michael or Jesus having a pre-existence?  I thought it was the latter.  

 

 

There is no difference because Jesus being Michael is still a form of pre-existence. If Jesus had to be fully man or the second Adam He can't have a pre-existence because no man does. 

[8thdaypriest]

If you put everything on a balance you are probably right that the scale will to tip towards preexistence but a bridge still needs needs to be built connecting Jesus with Michael. The NT is clear that no angel took on flesh.

But the Messenger of the Covenant DID !!

 

Judges 2:1 "Now the angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim.

And he said, [This is the "angel" speaking.]  "I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you," (NAU)

 

Concerning Michael:

What would an angel  - a created being, who does NOT have the power to give life - want with the corpse of Moses?  What??

Death reigned from Adam to Moses (Rom. 5:14).

Something CHANGED with the death of Moses.

My assumption would be that Moses was resurrected (over the objections of Satan). 

My assumption is strengthened with the appearance of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. (Either Moses was ALIVE on that Mount, or Jesus was talking to the dead - a very serious death penalty offense against the Law.) 

 

Michael leads the angels against "the Devil and his angels" (Rev. 12:7).  Michael appears to be "commander" of the LORD's angels.

The "man" who appeared to Joshua is "commander of the LORD's hosts" AND renders the ground "HOLY", so that Joshua is commanded to remove his shoes.

Joshua worships this "man" and is NOT corrected. 

 

Another incident in which the ground was made "HOLY" by the presence of an "Angel":

 

    Exodus  3:2-6 “And the Angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the burning bush:”(v.4).  “God called to him out of the midst of the bush,”(v.5). “Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”(v.6). “I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”

 

WHO appeared to Moses?

 

Exodus 3:16 [Yehovah - speaking with Moses at the burning bush] “Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob,appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:”

 

So - the "angel" of the LORD, tells Moses to say to the elders, "The LORD God of your fathers . . . appeared unto me..." 

 

Just because Michael is called a "messenger" does NOT absolutely mean He was a created being.