Robert Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 I did. That's what I quoted from. Then kindly post it in its entirety here again. It's called copy and paste. Quote
Robert Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) The idea, or the germ of the idea, you are suggesting comes not from Paul but Reformation theology, a vestige of the concept of original sin. The idea is that because of original sin it is impossible for a person, even converted, to do a righteous act because of the taint of original sin. Therefore righteousness can only be something declared by God, imputed righteousness, a "legal fiction". 1] Are you as perfect as God is perfect? IF not, why not? And, BTW, righteous acts do not fulfill the law. They maybe in harmony with it, but they do not full it. What fulfills the law is a life without self-love, self-interests and self-seeking. In other words, living Christ's life. 2] Yes, you will experience Christ's imparted righteousness IF you are resting in His imputed righteousness. If you are resting in His complete and perfect finished work of redemption then, yes, you can experience agape. That's why Jesus said "without me you can do nothing", nothing good that is. Edited June 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 This software is not very good.... We have common ground here. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Robert:The primary reason Christ as God assumed our fallen life was to legally fulfill the law so that humanity could be saved from the law that justly condemned it!. Anything outside this truth is legalism or perfectionism - a damnable heresy. The primary reason Christ did anything was to reveal the Father. This was the "whole purpose of His mission" (ST 1/20/90). But setting that aside a moment, historically here is what happened: 1.E. J. Waggoner and A. T. Jones developed an idea realting to Christ's work on the cross not being as limited as in traditional Armenianism.2.This was taken up by R. J. Wieland, and developed further, as an argument against Desmond Ford's theology.3.Sequeira, who was baptized by Wieland, took the idea and developed it further.4.You have taken Sequeira's idea, and developed it even more. So we have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, like Multiplicity, only one more generation. As with the movie (my apologies if you don't know the reference), the first copy is the best. Waggoner's message (as well as Jones) was endorsed by the Spirit of Prophecy over a thousand times. Every time I read Waggoner I learn something new. There is very little common ground between what you're writing and what Waggoner wrote. It's clear to me where you're thinking came from, but not clear to me how to try to discuss it with you. The tack I've been trying to take is to emphasize that our difficulties are not artificial or arbitrary ones caused exclusively or priarmily by something legal, but are actual, real, problems due to what sin actually does to us as human beings and how it damages our relationship with God. If your idea were correct (i.e. what you wrote in this post that I'm responding to), then Ellen White, A. T. Jones, E. J. Waggoner, and every SDA before sometime in the 20th century (middle or late, depedning upon how you define your terms) would be guilty of damnable heresy. I guess I should check to see if you agree with this statement. Can you think of any SDA's in the 19th century who agree with your idea, who weren't guilty of "damnable heresy"? Your idea reminds me of the blind men with the elephant, where each blind person felt a part of the elephant and thought that was all there was to the elephant. To you, all the gospel consists of is this one idea you mentioned above (feel free to correct me, as I hope you believe there's more to the gospel than this). What about, for example, the kingdom of God (or "kingdom of heaven")? How does this fit into the Gospel? Jesus referred to it as the "gospel of the kingdom". Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Then kindly post it in its entirety here again. It's called copy and paste. Why the sarcasm? This is an odd way to get people to do favors for you. I'm sorry I don't have time to do this now. Just go through page by page until you find it, which is the same thing I'd have to do. Maybe it's on page 8, I don't remember, but I gave you the date, and it's not more work than it would be for me, and I really don't have time to do this until this evening at the earliest. Edited June 17, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 Maybe it's on page 8, I don't remember, but I gave you the date, and it's not more work than it would be for me, and I really don't have time to do this until this evening at the earliest. I looked on page 8 and I didn't see anything.... Quote
Robert Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 The primary reason Christ did anything was to reveal the Father. I agree that the gospel reveals the love of God, but that alone doesn't fix the problem of sinners being under law. The law had to be legally fulfilled, i.e. the sinner had to die, and the sinner did "in Christ". Quote
Robert Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) 1.E. J. Waggoner and A. T. Jones developed an idea realting to Christ's work on the cross not being as limited as in traditional Armenianism.2.This was taken up by R. J. Wieland, and developed further, as an argument against Desmond Ford's theology.3.Sequeira, who was baptized by Wieland, took the idea and developed it further.4.You have taken Sequeira's idea, and developed it even more. Wow, you did well here, but... What did you mean that I "developed it even more"? Do you mean the concept that we are born justified? I actually got this idea from a non-Adventist book years ago. I can't remember the tile. Just remembered: http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Good-About-News-Salvation/dp/0945315074/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1434569382&sr=1-11&keywords=good+news+light Edited June 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Wow, you did well here, but... What did you mean that I "developed it even more"? Do you mean the concept that we are born justified? I actually got this idea from a non-Adventist book years ago. I can't remember the tile. Just remembered: http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Good-About-News-Salvation/dp/0945315074/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1434569382&sr=1-11&keywords=good+news+light Never mind.... Edited June 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 The primary reason Christ as God assumed our fallen life was to legally fulfill the law so that humanity could be saved from the law that justly condemned it!. Anything outside this truth is legalism or perfectionism - a damnable heresy. The PRIMARY REASON the Son of God assumed our nature and allowed Himself to be tortured to death publicly - was to convince human beings of God's love for them. WHEN we understand how much He loves us - we will WANT to serve Him. Quote 8thdaypriest
Robert Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Waggoner's message (as well as Jones) was endorsed by the Spirit of Prophecy over a thousand times. "There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation." Ellen White [Gospel Workers, pp. 297-300. (1915.)] 1915 is the year she died....Just saying.... Edited June 17, 2015 by Robert Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 God's LAW flows from His person - from His nature. God created LAW. It's the WAY THINGS WORK. Like the "Law of gravity" for instance. It's "cause and effect". Violation of LAW, results in ill effects for us and for those around us. Humankind sinned.... How to reverse the effects???? Only HEALING could reverse the effects. But HEALING must be allowed. It cannot be artificially imposed (That would be manipulation.) CONSENT must be given/obtained - which requires the restoration of TRUST. HENCE - Christ came to restore TRUST in God. God's Law - as revealed to Israel - did NOT ALLOW one man to be punished for another's sin. I have always felt the notion that God killed His own Son, to receive payment for our sins (to satisfy the claims of the Law), does NOT give a correct, or at least a full understanding. ONLY fully healed persons will be ABLE to live in peace with each other and with God, for all eternity. HERE we only consent to the healing process. We do THAT when we acknowledge Christ as LORD and healer. Some folks drop out of the program. Some folks never consent. Some folks consent for the wrong reasons. Some folks never KNEW about the healing program. Robert has folks who NEVER CONSENTED - just automatically healed, because Christ "paid the price". It seems to me that Robert's doctrine is the more legalistic. joeb and pnattmbtc 2 Quote 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Me:The idea, or the germ of the idea, you are suggesting comes not from Paul but Reformation theology, a vestige of the concept of original sin. The idea is that because of original sin it is impossible for a person, even converted, to do a righteous act because of the taint of original sin. Therefore righteousness can only be something declared by God, imputed righteousness, a "legal fiction". Robert:1] Are you as perfect as God is perfect? IF not, why not? And, BTW, righteous acts do not fulfill the law. They maybe in harmony with it, but they do not full it. What fulfills the law is a life without self-love, self-interests and self-seeking. In other words, living Christ's life. 2] Yes, you will experience Christ's imparted righteousness IF you are resting in His imputed righteousness. If you are resting in His complete and perfect finished work of redemption then, yes, you can experience agape. That's why Jesus said "without me you can do nothing", nothing good that is. I don't see the relevance of question 1. Regarding what fulfills the law, it's a bit difficult to follow you. In particular, I don't know what distinction you want to make between "fulfill" and being "in harmony" with the law. Does "fulfill" mean "keep"? Or something else? Does "in harmony" mean "keep"? Or something else? To be righteous is to have the law written in the heart. "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law. (Isa. 51:7)" Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 The primary reason Christ as God assumed our fallen life was to legally fulfill the law so that humanity could be saved from the law that justly condemned it!. Anything outside this truth is legalism or perfectionism - a damnable heresy. 8thday:The PRIMARY REASON the Son of God assumed our nature and allowed Himself to be tortured to death publicly - was to convince human beings of God's love for them. WHEN we understand how much He loves us - we will WANT to serve Him. You noticed the same thing I did. I agree, but would add not just for human beings. How God saves human beings is a subset of how God saves the Universe. It's incredible that God could do this. Romans 3:21-29 describes this wonderfully. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Robert: Wow, you did well here, but... What did you mean that I "developed it even more"? I mean you have ideas that Sequeira doesn't have. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 "There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation." Ellen White [Gospel Workers, pp. 297-300. (1915.)] 1915 is the year she died....Just saying.... I'm well familiar with this quote, and it's one of my favorites. As I see things, it goes hand in hand with the quote that the truth has nothing to fear from investigation. However, no new light should contradict existing light. We should be able to harmonize new light with existing light in some way. It could be there is a new way of looking at things, which revolutionalizes the old way (e.g. Jesus' saying on the Sermon of the Mount, "You have heard it said ... but I say unto you ..."), but we can't just throw away the established light as if it didn't exist, or was completely wrong (in which case it isn't light, but darkness). I don't see how to harmonize your concept of things with Waggoner in any way, shape or form. There are certain core ideas which originated from Waggoner, but you've incorporated them in a structure that's imcompatible with his structure. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 God's LAW flows from His person - from His nature. God created LAW. It's the WAY THINGS WORK. Like the "Law of gravity" for instance. It's "cause and effect". Violation of LAW, results in ill effects for us and for those around us. Humankind sinned.... How to reverse the effects???? Only HEALING could reverse the effects. But HEALING must be allowed. It cannot be artificially imposed (That would be manipulation.) CONSENT must be given/obtained - which requires the restoration of TRUST. HENCE - Christ came to restore TRUST in God. God's Law - as revealed to Israel - did NOT ALLOW one man to be punished for another's sin. I have always felt the notion that God killed His own Son, to receive payment for our sins (to satisfy the claims of the Law), does NOT give a correct, or at least a full understanding. ONLY fully healed persons will be ABLE to live in peace with each other and with God, for all eternity. HERE we only consent to the healing process. We do THAT when we acknowledge Christ as LORD and healer. Some folks drop out of the program. Some folks never consent. Some folks consent for the wrong reasons. Some folks never KNEW about the healing program. Robert has folks who NEVER CONSENTED - just automatically healed, because Christ "paid the price". It seems to me that Robert's doctrine is the more legalistic. I liked your post. Do you perceive the cross does something apart from revelation? That is, the cross reveals truth (the truth about God, sin, the devil, ourselves), and by that means transforms those who believe the truth (you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free). Does this encapsulate everything the cross does? (not minimizing this; this is a lot!) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted June 18, 2015 Author Posted June 18, 2015 I don't see how to harmonize your concept of things with Waggoner in any way, shape or form. There are certain core ideas which originated from Waggoner, but you've incorporated them in a structure that's imcompatible with his structure. Then Waggoner is the standard and not the Bible....I'm using the Bible. That's the measuring stick of truth. Quote
Robert Posted June 18, 2015 Author Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) I mean you have ideas that Sequeira doesn't have. Maybe, maybe not. I'll have to call him and ask him.... Edited June 18, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted June 18, 2015 Author Posted June 18, 2015 To be righteous is to have the law written in the heart. "Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law. (Isa. 51:7)" Heart means mind....I'll get back with on this one using Romans 7. You've just created a big theological problem for yourself. Quote
Members phkrause Posted June 18, 2015 Members Posted June 18, 2015 This software is not very good.... What software are you talking about????? Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members phkrause Posted June 18, 2015 Members Posted June 18, 2015 We have common ground here. ????? Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
8thdaypriest Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 I liked your post. Do you perceive the cross does something apart from revelation? That is, the cross reveals truth (the truth about God, sin, the devil, ourselves), and by that means transforms those who believe the truth (you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free). Does this encapsulate everything the cross does? (not minimizing this; this is a lot!) Revelations of the cross and the resurrection: 1. God your Father loves you sooooo much that He would DIE to prove that to you. 2. God your Father could not die, while at the same time upholding all things, so He sent His own begotten Son to die. 3. Evil destroys what is good. 4. Satan was revealed as evil, when He put to death One that was only good. 5. Evil will NOT triumph over good. Good will ultimately prevail. It is better to be on the side of good. Quote 8thdaypriest
Robert Posted June 18, 2015 Author Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) Heart means mind....I'll get back with on this one using Romans 7. You've just created a big theological problem for yourself. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Edited June 18, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted June 18, 2015 Author Posted June 18, 2015 What software are you talking about????? This new platform that Stan's using for CA....Maybe it has glitches? Quote
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