Are we born justified?

[pnattmbtc]

Robert:No, sin causes the 1st death, but the law brings about the 2nd death.

Paul wrote

Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin. (Romans 7:13)

Paul is making the specific point that it is *not* the law that is the cause of death, but sin.  The function of the law is to call attention to sin, which Paul explains in the context from the above portion is taken:

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

 

This is making the points I've been making throughout this thread.  The problem is sin.  Verse 11 states plainly that "sin ... killed me", and verse 13 makes as clear as can be that the cause of death is *not* the law, but sin.  The purpose of the law is to make sin evident "I would not have come to know sin except through the law."

[LifeHiscost]

Paul wrote

Paul is making the specific point that it is *not* the law that is the cause of death, but sin.  The function of the law is to call attention to sin, which Paul explains in the context from the above portion is taken:

 

This is making the points I've been making throughout this thread.  The problem is sin.  Verse 11 states plainly that "sin ... killed me", and verse 13 makes as clear as can be that the cause of death is *not* the law, but sin.  The purpose of the law is to make sin evident "I would not have come to know sin except through the law."

​

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

 

 

​Ellen White states that the law condemns the sinner...

 

Edited June 9, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.1 2 For the law of hthe Spirit of life ihas set you2 free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

No condemnation from what?  From both "the law of sin" (our bent) and death, the 2nd death.  Christ took our 2nd death, which Paul calls the curse of the law, not the curse of sin.

[pnattmbtc]

​Robert:Ellen White states that the law condemns the sinner...

Let's see what she means by the phrase:

God has given in his word a mirror into which the sinner may look and discover the defects of his moral character. That mirror is the royal law of God, the ten commandments. We are to compare our character with the law of God, and if that law condemns us, if we are breaking any of its requirements, then our garments are defiled by sin; and all the efforts we may make in our own strength will not efface one stain, one spot of sin. We must go to Jesus, humble the heart before him, and confessing our sins, forsake them. We must cease to transgress the law of God, but exercise repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only one who can remove these defiled garments of sin, and clothe us in the robe of Christ’s righteousness. YI August 18, 1886, par. 1

She's saying the same thing Paul is Romans 7.  The law is a mirror.  How do mirrors condemn us?  If we have a piece of chocolate on our nose, the mirror condemns us by pointing out the chocolate.  But is the mirror the source of our problem?  No, the chocolate is.  The mirror is the solution!  It points outs the problem, which we can rectify with a washcloth.

Similarly the law points out our problem of sin, which we can rectify by going to Jesus, and humbling the heart before Him. 

[Robert]

Let's see what she means by the phrase:

Here's what I quoted:

"The law of God, spoken in awful grandeur from Sinai, is the utterance of condemnation to the sinner. It is the province of the law to condemn, but there is in it no power to pardon or to redeem. It is ordained to life; those who walk in harmony with its precepts will receive the reward of obedience (i.e, "obey & live"). But it brings bondage and death to those who remain under its condemnation (i.e., disobey & die")."  [The Review and Herald, April 22, 1902]

She's saying the same thing Paul is Romans 7.  The law is a mirror.  How do mirrors condemn us?  If we have a piece of chocolate on our nose, the mirror condemns us by pointing out the chocolate.  But is the mirror the source of our problem?  No, the chocolate is.  The mirror is the solution!  It points outs the problem, which we can rectify with a washcloth.

Similarly the law points out our problem of sin, which we can rectify by going to Jesus, and humbling the heart before Him. 

​But you didn't quote what I quoted....Context, context.

Besides, if Christ saved us from sin (not the law) then you would be perfect as God is perfect.  Are you???

Edited June 9, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live (future tense), even though he dies (i.e., the 1st death); 

26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die (i.e., the 2nd death). Do you believe this?" 

Yes, our first death is the result of sin.  And so sin puts us in the grave.  Those who have refuse Christ's deliverance from under law will also experience this 1st death, but then they must face the judgement.  

What's the standard in the judgment?  The law!  So they are raised and found guilty of transgression.  Then they must take the curse of the law, the 2nd death, with hope of a resurrection.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

You wrote this:

Ellen White states that the law condemns the sinner...

So I looked up in her writings the phrase you quoted to see what it meant to her.  In the other passage you quoted, it works just fine the way she used it in the other quote (people don't normally change what they understand phrases to mean like "the law condemns the sinner") and is the same thing that Paul wrote in Romans 7.

Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. Romans 7:13

 Paul asks the question, is it the law that is the cause of death, and answers his own question emphatically no ("May it never be!"). 

[pnattmbtc]

Besides, if Christ saved us from sin (not the law) then you would be perfect as God is perfect.  Are you???

You are asserting here that Christ doesn't save us from sin?  

Oh, we do not comprehend the value of the atonement! If we did, we would talk more about it. The gift of God in His beloved Son was the expression of an incomprehensible love. It was the utmost that God could do to preserve the honor of His law, and still save the transgressor. Why should man not study the theme of redemption? It is the greatest subject that can engage the human mind. If men would contemplate the love of Christ, displayed in the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of His shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin. 

In regards to Scripture, Matthew 1:21 comes to mind. 

The law is not our enemy.  It is a transcript of God's character.  We no more need to be saved from the law than we need to be saved from God.

Again, quoting Paul:

Now, did something good cause my death? That's unthinkable! Rather, my death was caused by sin so that sin would be recognized for what it is. (Rom. 7:13)

The something good here is the law. 

[pnattmbtc]

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live (future tense), even though he dies (i.e., the 1st death); 

26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die (i.e., the 2nd death). Do you believe this?" 

Yes, our first death is the result of sin.  And so sin puts us in the grave.  Those who have refuse Christ's deliverance from under law will also experience this 1st death, but then they must face the judgement.  

What's the standard in the judgment?  The law!  So they are raised and found guilty of transgression.  Then they must take the curse of the law, the 2nd death, with hope of a resurrection.

You're looking at this thing as if it were arbitrary, as if the problem were the law, and if only the law were written a bit differently, than things would be ok.

Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? (GC 542) 

This expresses the problem very clearly.  The law testifies to the problem, by defining it, or making it clear, like a mirror, but it is not the problem, nor causes the problem.  As Paul put it, it is holy, just and good.  He asks the question if the law causes the problem, and answers his own question, "May it never be!"

[pnattmbtc]

The law without Christ is death. The law in Christ is life. His life is the law of God; for out of the heart are the issues of life, and the law was in his heart. The law of sin and death works in our members.  But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ gives us freedom from this. Mark that it is the life in Christ that does this.  It does not give us freedom from obedience to the law, for we had that before, and that was bondage, and not freedom. What he gives us freedom from is the transgression of the law. (Waggoner on Romans; commenting on Romans 8:1,2)

[pnattmbtc]

Also of note:

Some say, “I do not find this scripture fulfilled in my case, because I find something to condemn me every time I look at myself.” To be sure; for the freedom from condemnation is not in ourselves, but in Christ Jesus. We are to look at him, instead of at ourselves. If we obey his orders, and trust him, he takes the responsibility of making us clear before the law. There will never be a time when one will not find condemnation in looking at himself. The fall of Satan was due to his looking at himself. The restoration for those whom he has made to fall, is only through looking to Jesus. “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.” John 3:14. The serpent was lifted up to be looked at. Those who looked were healed. Even so with Christ. In the world to come the servants of the Lord “shall see his face,” and they will not be drawn away to themselves. The light of his countenance will be their glory and it is in that same light that they will be brought to that glorious state. (Waggoner on Romans)

Edited June 10, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[8thdaypriest]

Reading Paul - on the Law - one could come to think the man schizophrenic.  The Law is good, but we're not under it.  

I once made a list of EVERY statement by Paul - on the Law.  I began to try to sort them somehow.  What I finally realized is that all of Paul's statements on the Law, can be put into two columns. 

Column #1:  The Law - as a means to salvation.  (No!  No!  No! ) 

Column#2:  The Law as the standard for behavior.  (Yes!  Yes!  Yes!)  

The Pharisees THOUGHT that one could find salvation through Law keeping (including the Law of sacrifice, not just the 10Cs).  Paul says, "That's impossible."  The Law only points us to Christ, who CAN save us.  The Law tells us that we NEED a savior.   

Personally I read the Law as a promise.  This standard is what Christ will bring forth IN ME.  I will actually come to live that Law.

Back then, I realized that the solution was NOT to do away with the Law (except for the sacrifices which became obsolete).  The solution was to bring ME into harmony with the Law.  God forgives my past transgressions, but also changes me, so that I can live in harmony with His law.  THIS is the salvation process.

[pnattmbtc]

Reading Paul - on the Law - one could come to think the man schizophrenic.  The Law is good, but we're not under it.  

I once made a list of EVERY statement by Paul - on the Law.  I began to try to sort them somehow.  What I finally realized is that all of Paul's statements on the Law, can be put into two columns. 

Column #1:  The Law - as a means to salvation.  (No!  No!  No! ) 

Column#2:  The Law as the standard for behavior.  (Yes!  Yes!  Yes!)  

The Pharisees THOUGHT that one could find salvation through Law keeping (including the Law of sacrifice, not just the 10Cs).  Paul says, "That's impossible."  The Law only points us to Christ, who CAN save us.  The Law tells us that we NEED a savior.   

Personally I read the Law as a promise.  This standard is what Christ will bring forth IN ME.  I will actually come to live that Law.

Back then, I realized that the solution was NOT to do away with the Law (except for the sacrifices which became obsolete).  The solution was to bring ME into harmony with the Law.  God forgives my past transgressions, but also changes me, so that I can live in harmony with His law.  THIS is the salvation process.

​

I don't disagree with what you're writing here, but don't think this is how Paul or his readers would have thought about what Paul wrote here.  For example, the law would not have been thought of as a standard of behavior, nor a means of salvation, but as simply something one did as a member of the covenant community.  The law was given for a good purpose, that those who walked in harmony with it should live, but its good purpose was messed up by sin.  However, even in its purpose being messed up by sin, it participates in a solution to the problem, by making sin evident (like a mirror).

Christ came, was was risen to life, as a promise of life for those who respond to Him, through the Spirit, of life both now (the principle message) and when physically resurrected.  As Christ was resurrected, so those who live by the Spirit may live anew (beginning now, but also when resurrected) fulfilling the law.

Edited June 10, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[LifeHiscost]

Reading Paul - on the Law - one could come to think the man schizophrenic.  The Law is good, but we're not under it.  

I once made a list of EVERY statement by Paul - on the Law.  I began to try to sort them somehow.  What I finally realized is that all of Paul's statements on the Law, can be put into two columns. 

Column #1:  The Law - as a means to salvation.  (No!  No!  No! ) 

Column#2:  The Law as the standard for behavior.  (Yes!  Yes!  Yes!)  

The Pharisees THOUGHT that one could find salvation through Law keeping (including the Law of sacrifice, not just the 10Cs).  Paul says, "That's impossible."  The Law only points us to Christ, who CAN save us.  The Law tells us that we NEED a savior.   

Personally I read the Law as a promise.  This standard is what Christ will bring forth IN ME.  I will actually come to live that Law.

Back then, I realized that the solution was NOT to do away with the Law (except for the sacrifices which became obsolete).  The solution was to bring ME into harmony with the Law.  God forgives my past transgressions, but also changes me, so that I can live in harmony with His law.  THIS is the salvation process.

​

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[joeb]

Paul wrote

Paul is making the specific point that it is *not* the law that is the cause of death, but sin.  The function of the law is to call attention to sin, which Paul explains in the context from the above portion is taken:

 

This is making the points I've been making throughout this thread.  The problem is sin.  Verse 11 states plainly that "sin ... killed me", and verse 13 makes as clear as can be that the cause of death is *not* the law, but sin.  The purpose of the law is to make sin evident "I would not have come to know sin except through the law."

​This brings out the importance of ga'al in the plan of salvation.  How?  Paul also said, I am carnal, sold under sin.  If he has been sold, he must be bought back.  That is the plan of salvation and his statement to this effect shows this is how he understands it.  Every time he refers to redemption, to being redeemed, etc... he uses Greek words that mean being bought, being ransomed, being purchased.  He never uses any Greek that even comes close to the idea that he was on the cross with Christ or living inside Adam when Adam sinned. 

After this Paul then goes on to talk about the law of sin living in his members and the delight in the law of God that is found in his mind.  The start of the very next chapter is where he talks about there being no condemnation for those who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.  There he shows there is a great difference in behavior between the two.  One is a life that delights in God's law and shows that in how the life is lived.  The other is a life that delights in sin and once again demonstrates that in how the life is lived. 

There is no condemnation when a life is lived that is motivated by love for the law of God.  How could there be, for a good tree brings forth good fruit, and an evil tree brings forth evil fruit.  The Spirit will never lead us into a life that is opposed to the will of God, iows, opposed to God's law.

[8thdaypriest]

 I sometimes try to place myself in the mind of an ancient Israelite priest, living just after Christ died and rose again.  What would he think about Paul's message. 

The LORD had said that the "priest will make atonement" for the one who transgressed the Law.  But Paul is saying that the priest did NOT make atonement - that in fact, the blood of bulls and goats did NOTHING.  It was all just a prophecy pointing to Jesus as the Christ.  That priest believed strongly that he actually DID "make atonement" for transgressors.  Did God lie to him????  Was his work nothing more than a play - an acted prophecy? 

I think you can imagine why some mighty miracles were needed to convince people - such as that priest. 

[Robert]

You are asserting here that Christ doesn't save us from sin?  

​That wasn't an answer, was it?  If you are saved from sin there should be no self-interests, no self-love, just agape.  Is there just agape?  If not, why not?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

You're looking at this thing as if it were arbitrary, as if the problem were the law....

​The law isn't the problem, being a sinner under law is the problem. To remain under law means death, the 2nd death.

 Now if you want to pretend the law doesn't condemn those under law you go right a head and keep doing that.  The law doesn't condemn those who aren't under it (as in Romans 7).  To the believer the law can't condemn, but it can point out sin (as a mirror).  But those under law are under a curse. 

Edited June 11, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​The law isn't the problem, being a sinner under law is the problem. .... The law doesn't condemn those who aren't under it (as in Romans 7).  

​Is Romans 7, especially the verses in dispute, speaking of the unconverted or converted Paul?  

Verse 9: "I (the converted Paul) was (past tense, as a Pharisee) once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment (the 10th) came, sin became alive and I died...."

As a Pharisee, Saul thought that eternal life was gained through his law performance, but when Saul understood the spirituality of the law, the law he thought brought him life actually brought condemnation (death).  The law, therefore, was instrumental in converting this legalistic Pharisee to the Apostle Paul, the great champion of justification by faith.

Ellen White:

SC 29,30: Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem (pride in his law performance) was gone.

 

Edited June 11, 2015 by Robert

[LifeHiscost]

​That wasn't an answer, was it?  If you are saved from sin there should be no self interest, no self-love, just agape.  Is there just agape?  If not, why not?

​Can't quite agree with you there, Robert.

…30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' 31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."....Mark 12

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

​

To be "under law", as you are using the expression, is synonomous with being converted.  So what you wrote can be stated as follows:

 

The law isn't the problem, being a sinner while unconverted is the problem.  To remain unconverted means death, the 2nd death.

The law doesn't condemn those who are converted (as in Romans 7).  To the believer the law can't condemn, but it can point out sin (as a mirror).  But those who are unconverted are under a curse.

Regarding "the law can't condemn", this is again speaking as if the law were a sentient being.  The law can't literally condemn anybody.  God can condemn.  So to say that "the law condemns" is to say that "God condemns".  Now who will God condemn?  Anybody who refuses to respond to His overtures of love; i.e. anyone who refuses to believe, an unbeliever.  As long as a believer continues to believe, God will not condemn Him.  If a person willingly sins, and persistently refuses to repent, then such a person will be condemned, because such a person have moved from being a believer to being an unbeliever. 

 

[pnattmbtc]

I can't see anything on page 33.  I'm curious if others can see page 33.

[phkrause]

I can see it!!

[Robert]

To be "under law", as you are using the expression, is synonomous with being converted.  

​No, absolutely not!  To be under law is to be ruled by the law.  The law has jurisdiction over a man as long as he lives.  It says, "obey & live", "disobey & die".  Disobedience brings the curse, which is God abandonment. 

Regarding "the law can't condemn", this is again speaking as if the law were a sentient being. 

Your argument is with Paul; not me.  Paul states "the law brings wrath"; he doesn't state "God brings wrath".  So argue with him and you do that by disproving him to me since he has passed on. 

Edited June 13, 2015 by Robert