Are we born justified?

[8thdaypriest]

​

That's like a tiny sliver of the Gospel.  The gospel is that God so loved you that He gave His Son to die the most cruel of deaths, willing to renounce His eternal life to secure yours.  The gospel is that God is just like His Son, and the cruels lies of the enemy have been disproven.  The Gospel is that the powers of darkness have been defeated, and we are fighting against a fallen foe.  All of these are more prominent both in important and in representation (i.e., many more texts are devoted to these themes) than any legal question.  

You wrote because our character is faulty we are placed in death row.  This way of putting it makes it sound as if it were a legal problem.  Our problem is real.  If we hate God and the principles of His government, we must repent (involving a change of mind), be converted, so that we love God, His Son, and everything about Him.  This is in no way a problem that doing anything having to do only with the law can fix.

The problem is us.  *We* need to be fixed.

​I think the drug addicted person is a good way to picture all of us and our sin problem.  The addict KNOWS that what he's doing is not legal.  He doesn't care.  He KNOWS that it's killing him.  Does that stop him?  No!  Even when he is convicted and jailed, as soon as he is released from jail, he's at it again - and this after he went through rehab and detox. He just LOVES that feeling - that "high".  Sometimes - not very often - a family intervention, where each one says how he/she has been HURT by the drug addict's behavior, - sometimes, that will get the addict's attention, and reach something inside him, that he will stay "clean" next time. 

Humans are addicts.  They are addicted - to sin.  Some know, and some do not - that what they are doing is not legal (in God's Book).  Some also know they will DIE for their sins.  But knowing THAT is not enough to stop them.  It is only learning of God's love for them, and of how their addiction has HURT Him - that finally get's a few to turn from their sins. 

Does the addict have a legal problem.  Of course.

Does the addict have a health problem.  Yes!!!  He desperately NEEDS healing. 

You cannot focus ONLY on the legal problem. 

[8thdaypriest]

I have loaded a revised study at my website which covers most of the arguments made here on this question "Born Justified?".

You can find it at:  http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book Chapters/1-BOOK OF LIFE -Challenge.pdf

[pnattmbtc]

This is a nice explanation.  It points out that the legal problems are incidental.

We often think of the Gospel in a limited way, in terms of ourselves.  I remember reading something on this where hte author gave as an example, suppose Dr. Joe invented a cure for all viruses.  A result of this would be that everyone who had a virus would be cured.  So one could say the good news is "I was cured of this virus", which is true, but a limited way of looking at it.  A less limited way would be, "Dr. Joe defeated all viruses!".

In the New Testament, by far the most often quoted text is Ps. 110:1, "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."  The very first recorded sermon in Acts references this.  In our language, as SDA's, we speak of "The Great Controversy," which is another phrase for the same theme the NT authors were emphasizing.  We tend to emphasize instead just the aspect of the Gospel which impacts us.  But the Gospel is bigger than this; it's primarily about God.

[Robert]

​I stood before the judge of the universe and was pronounced guilty, with the penalty for my crimes to be death when Jesus stepped up to the bar and told the Authority that He would pay that penalty in my place, with His own blood if I would accept it. That offer was accepted as full payment plus adding clothing me with His righteousness that I would be able to live in His domain, unashamed with no spot or wrinkle left. Such is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

​What do you mean "plus"?  The gospel is what Christ did in our corporate humanity plus nothing.  Hence, not I, but Christ.

[Robert]

​

That's like a tiny sliver of the Gospel.

​No, no, no....The love of God is revealed in the gospel, but the gospel is Christ's work of satisfying His own law that justly condemns the sinner.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Robert

[joeb]

​I think the drug addicted person is a good way to picture all of us and our sin problem.  The addict KNOWS that what he's doing is not legal.  He doesn't care.  He KNOWS that it's killing him.  Does that stop him?  No!  Even when he is convicted and jailed, as soon as he is released from jail, he's at it again - and this after he went through rehab and detox. He just LOVES that feeling - that "high".  Sometimes - not very often - a family intervention, where each one says how he/she has been HURT by the drug addict's behavior, - sometimes, that will get the addict's attention, and reach something inside him, that he will stay "clean" next time. 

Humans are addicts.  They are addicted - to sin.  Some know, and some do not - that what they are doing is not legal (in God's Book).  Some also know they will DIE for their sins.  But knowing THAT is not enough to stop them.  It is only learning of God's love for them, and of how their addiction has HURT Him - that finally get's a few to turn from their sins. 

Does the addict have a legal problem.  Of course.

Does the addict have a health problem.  Yes!!!  He desperately NEEDS healing. 

You cannot focus ONLY on the legal problem. 

​I agree with every word you wrote.  I am only concerned with what you left out. 

Does the addict have a health problem.  Yes!!!  He desperately NEEDS healing. 

And the gospel supplies the healing we who are addicted to sin know that we need.  If it didn't, the gospel wouldn't be much of a solution to sin for it would leave us in exactly the same situation we were in before, needing healing, only now we would be hopeless.. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by joeb

[joeb]

​No, no, no....The love of God is revealed in the gospel, but the gospel is Christ's work of satisfying His own law that justly condemns the sinner.

​You have a very empty version of the gospel. Thank God His gospel is so much greater than you allege it is.

[LifeHiscost]

​What do you mean "plus"?  The gospel is what Christ did in our corporate humanity plus nothing.  Hence, not I, but Christ.

​If He did not clothe you with His robe of righteousness you are still covered with your filthy garments, whatever your conception of being clean and fit for His use.

…3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. 4He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, "Remove the filthy garments from him." Again he said to him, "See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes." 5Then I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by.…Zechariah 3

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[Robert]

​If He did not clothe you with His robe of righteousness you are still covered with your filthy garments, whatever your conception of being clean and fit for His use.

…3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. 4He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, "Remove the filthy garments from him." Again he said to him, "See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes." 5Then I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by.…Zechariah 3

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

​The robe of Christ righteousness is a metaphor that represents our actual position "in Christ Jesus".

[Robert]

​You have a very empty version of the gospel. Thank God His gospel is so much greater than you allege it is.

​Yes, to those who think they can "add" to Christ's work of redemption it is an empty version free from human performance and human pride.

1 Cor 1:29 ...so that no one may boast before him. 

30 It is because of him (God) that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our justification, sanctification and redemption. 

31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

 

"In Christ" we already stand justified, sanctified and glorified. "This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising." EGW

[Samie]

​I didn't attempt to prove little children can either be good or bad. I asked you in another post if you dispute this, but I don't recall your responding to that question. I haven't attempted to prove this, as it didn't strike me as something which should need proof, as we all, by experience, know and have met both good and bad children.

Yes, you didn't attempt to prove. You simply stated flatly, that there are wicked children using Prov 20:11. All the while what I have in mind are the little children ( Greek paidi,on not neani,skoj), who died before the age of accountability. They are the ones who will be in the new earth. ​They are the ones whose names remained written in the book of life. Are you saying there are wicked children among those who have died before the age of accountability? If Yes, can you elucidate using Biblical basis?

[Samie]

 

1.You did take what was written out of context.  The context of Isa. 11 has nothing to do with names written in the book of life.

My context lies in the totality of what God said in Isaiah and Revelation. In Revelation He said:
NKJ Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The fact that they are in the new earth and NOT in the lake of fire led me to conclude that the names of those little children are found written in the book of life. Can you show me, based on Scriptures, how my conclusion could be wrong?

2.You're being inaccurate in what you wrote.  You say, "He said only those whose names are in the book of life can be in the new earth otherwise they'll be in the lake of fire."  Nowhere did God say exactly this.  You're making an inference based on other texts.  If you're going to make an agrument based on the fact that God spoke certain words, you need to be exact in quoting the words that were said.  If you're going to make an argument based on inference, you should be clear as to what was actually said, and what it is you are inferring.

I see. Is my statement "the fact that they are in the new earth and NOT in the lake of fire led me to conclude that the names of those little children are found written in the book of life", Scripturally inaccurate. If Yes, why or how?

 

3.You write that the names of babies in the new earth must be in the book of life.  You've been arguing that every baby's name is written in the book of life.  To complete your argument, you're missing the step that all babies are in the new earth.  That is, you are arguing:
i)Only those whose names are written in the book of life can be in the new earth.
ii)There will be babies in the new earth.
iii)Therefore the names of babies in the new earth are written in the book of life.

If this argument is accepted, . . .

Can you please show why 1. iii) is wrong logic based on i) & ii), or whether 2. i) & ii) are not based on Scriptures?

If this argument is accepted, then if you could show that all babies will be in the near earth, you'd have a valid argument.  Can you produce a text which says that all babies will be in the new earth?

​If your phrase "if you could show that all babies will be in the [new] earth" refers only to babies who died before the age of accountability, then Yes, all those babies will be in the new earth. I have already given a couple of texts, which when taken together point to the direction of my position.  Isa 11:6-9; Matt 18:2-3; 19:13-14; Rev 20:15; 21:27.

We all know that NOT all babies born will all die before the age of accountability. Again, only those babies who died before the age of accountability will be in the new earth. All else who grew up into and past the age of accountability will, at their death, be all judged whether they have overcome evil or not while alive. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

 

4.You remember earlier when I spoke of you're setting yourself up as an infallible interpreter of Scripture, and you said, "where am I doing this?"  Statements such as, "I respect your position not to accept as God's statements His statements recorded in Isaiah and Revelation" in an example of your doing this.  If you are an infallible interpreter of Scripture, then you speak for God, and when I disagree with you, I'm disagreeing with God, in which case you would be kind in respecting my position to disagree with you/God.  However, if you are not infallible, then more circumspect would be something like, "I respect your position not to agree with my interpretations."

​Sorry, if that's how my statements appeared to you.

[8thdaypriest]

AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY

Numbers 14:31 'Your children, however, whom you said would become a prey-- I will bring them in, and they will know the land which you have rejected. (NAU)

Those "little ones" (KJV translation) were all those under 20 years old.   It appears that the LORD's "age of accountability" is 19 and younger. 

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, you didn't attempt to prove. You simply stated flatly, that there are wicked children using Prov 20:11. All the while what I have in mind are the little children ( Greek paidi,on not neani,skoj), who died before the age of accountability. They are the ones who will be in the new earth. ​They are the ones whose names remained written in the book of life. Are you saying there are wicked children among those who have died before the age of accountability? If Yes, can you elucidate using Biblical basis?

​

Of course not among those who are on the new earth, but I'm saying it's clear that there is such a thing as wicked children.  These children would have to be in the new earth too, in order for your contention that all names are written in the book of life.  Is there any text that you can produce which states that wicked children will be on the new earth? 

[pnattmbtc]

Hi Samie.  I'll respond separately to the long post, to keep it from being too long.  If I missed something you'd like to have answered, please repeat it.

What I've requested from you is a Scripture text stating all new babies, or all young children, have their names written in the book of life, or, equivalently, a scripture text stating that all such will be in the new earth. Isa. 11 relates that little chidren were seen in the new earth.  Say I went to a park, and saw little children there, and then concluded "all little children are in this park", what would you think of that conclusion?

The Matthew texts are not even talking about the same subject, or even a related subject.

The Revelation texts are talking about those whose names are NOT written in the book of life.

So none of the texts states that all young children will be in the new earth.  Does it even make sense that wicked young children would be in the new earth?

[pnattmbtc]

That's like a tiny sliver of the Gospel.

​No, no, no....The love of God is revealed in the gospel, but the gospel is Christ's work of satisfying His own law that justly condemns the sinner.

From your response, it doesn't appear that you even read what I posted.  From your response, it doesn't appear that you even read what I posted.  At any rate, why would you limit it to just this one thing?

Edited June 5, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding the robe of Christ, from the Spirit of Prophecy

This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." Isa. 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But [p. 312] Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. 

By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. (COL 314)

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding the robe of Christ, from E. J. Waggoner's "Christ And His Righteousness"

Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away. And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been canceled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Corinthians 5:17. And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart.

[Samie]

Yes, you didn't attempt to prove. You simply stated flatly, that there are wicked children using Prov 20:11. All the while what I have in mind are the little children ( Greek paidi,on not neani,skoj), who died before the age of accountability. They are the ones who will be in the new earth. ​They are the ones whose names remained written in the book of life. Are you saying there are wicked children among those who have died before the age of accountability? If Yes, can you elucidate using Biblical basis?

​To the above post, your replied:

Of course not among those who are on the new earth, but I'm saying it's clear that there is such a thing as wicked children.  These children would have to be in the new earth too, in order for your contention that all names are written in the book of life.  Is there any text that you can produce which states that wicked children will be on the new earth? 

​Your response is not clear to me. I was asking if among those who died before the age of accountability, there are wicked children, too. I believe that among the little children (Greek paidi,on not neani,skoj) who died before the age of accountability, there are no wicked, so there are no wicked little children in the new earth. Do you believe there will be little children who are wicked in the new earth?

[LifeHiscost]

​What do you mean "plus"?  The gospel is what Christ did in our corporate humanity plus nothing.  Hence, not I, but Christ.

​What do you do with this instruction, Robert? It does sound from most of the posts I've read of yours, after receiving Jesus we then are more automatons than free will disciples.

7Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.…James 4

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;…John 14

14"Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." ....Joshua 24

I am in full agreement with this excerpt from the Word;

2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart....Hebrews 12

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

Your response is not clear to me. I was asking if among those who died before the age of accountability, there are wicked children, too. I believe that among the little children (Greek paidi,on not neani,skoj) who died before the age of accountability, there are no wicked, so there are no wicked little children in the new earth. Do you believe there will be little children who are wicked in the new earth?

You're saying you don't believe there are any wicked children before the age of accountability?  Really?

This seems impossible to me.  Let's throw out an age of accountability.  How about 8 years old.  Does that work for you?

[pnattmbtc]

Sorry Samie.  I realize I misread what you were saying.  No, I don't believe there will be wicked children in the new earth, which is why I disagree with your idea that the names of all little children are written in the book of life, in which case there would be wicked children in the new earth.

[Samie]

Hi Samie.  I'll respond separately to the long post, to keep it from being too long.  If I missed something you'd like to have answered, please repeat it.

What I've requested from you is a Scripture text stating all new babies, or all young children, have their names written in the book of life, or, equivalently, a scripture text stating that all such will be in the new earth. Isa. 11 relates that little chidren were seen in the new earth. 

​The texts I provided taken together point to the direction of my position. Can you explain explain why or how they don't?

 Say I went to a park, and saw little children there, and then concluded "all little children are in this park", what would you think of that conclusion?

​Wrong conclusion of course. The correct one would be "all little children are in this earth".

The Matthew texts are not even talking about the same subject, or even a related subject.

The Revelation texts are talking about those whose names are NOT written in the book of life.

So none of the texts states that all young children will be in the new earth.

​Applying good Biblical hermeneutics, they do point to that direction when taken together. But I respect your position. From those texts, I can be sure that our God Who is NOT an impartial God, wrote all our names in the book of life, and will be blotted out only when a person dies and he did not overcome evil with good while alive. All little children who died before the age of accountability will have their names retained in the book of life.

Rev 20:15 talks about the destiny of anyone whose name is not found written in the book of life. Rev 21:17 talks about the destiny of those whose names are found written in the book of life.  These verses tell me that anyone not thrown into the lake of fire have their names NOT blotted out from the book of life, and among these are the little children who died before the age of accountability.

[Samie]

Sorry Samie.  I realize I misread what you were saying.  No, I don't believe there will be wicked children in the new earth, which is why I disagree with your idea that the names of all little children are written in the book of life, in which case there would be wicked children in the new earth.

​Again, for nth time, we all are born with our names in the book of life. If one dies before the age of accountability, his name is retained in the book of life, based on this statement of our Creator:

ESV Deuteronomy 1:39 And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

If one grows into and past the age of accountability, his name is retained when he dies if he has overcome evil with good while alive, otherwise, his name is blotted out.

[Samie]

You're saying you don't believe there are any wicked children before the age of accountability?  Really?

This seems impossible to me.  Let's throw out an age of accountability.  How about 8 years old.  Does that work for you?

​I believe, it's God Who can determine the age of accountability of anyone. We don't grow up with the same rate of understanding things. Let's just leave to Him to determine whether one has grown into the age of accountability or not.