Are we born justified?

[pnattmbtc]

Really?  Prove this using Ellen White's writings.  Furthermore she never claimed infallibility. 

Regarding the infallibility comment, what you are doing is to quote her whenever it suits you (which is ok) and without regards to context (not ok).  You'll take a sentence, or a portion of sentence, to try to establish a point of view, when you can find things which you think support an idea you have.  This is not a just way of using her writings, or any writings, whether inspired or not.

If you read what she said about inspiration (meaning all that she said about inspiration, not just a sentence taken out of context), you will see that she did not distinguish between how inspiration works in regards to herself or Scripture.  It is find and good that we should establish our positions from Scripture, but not because she was inspired in some lesser or inferior way than other inspired writers were.  Her writings are no less true than the Scriptures.  The same Holy Spirit inspired the Bible writers and her. 

[pnattmbtc]

It does not create any problems which didn't already exist, but sheds light on what's happening.  Death would always be the result of separating oneself from God, who alone is the source of life.  

​Robert: The wages of sin is death.  Death, the 2nd death, is the result of rejecting the righteousness of Christ.  Those who reject Christ must stand before God's law in their own so called righteousness.

The wages of sin would be death regardless of the law existing.  Sin is putting oneself before God, separating oneself from God, who alone is the source of life.  The principle of "me first", of selfishness, is not life sustaining!  It can do no other but lead to death.  The law doesn't cause this to happen; selfishness does. 

[pnattmbtc]

​​Notice that Christ wrought out a perfect character, which He offers to impart to us.  Also note what being clothed in Christ's righteousness means: the heart is united with His heart, the will with His will, and the thoughts brought into captivity to Him.

Robert:So, what you are telling Me is that Christ in His earthly birth, life, death & resurrection produced a perfect character, but this character isn't imputed to the believer in terms of salvation, it's imparted.  

No, that's not what I said, nor the quote.  Please read the quote again.  The quote is what I'm saying.

Robert:This makes justification by faith meaningless and places the emphasis on Christ's imparted righteousness (what He does in the believer).  Hence it is salvation by what Christ does in us.  This is heresy!!!! 

You're not expressing this very well, but it's (by "it" I mean the idea express well, which is as it is in the quote, not your rehash of the quote) only heresy if you believe in original sin.  I asked you elsewhere what you think justification by faith is.  You may have answered elsewhere, and if so, sorry about asking again.  What do you think justification by faith is?

[pnattmbtc]

joeb:The only other conclusion is once saved always saved if you want to follow your conclusion to it's logical end.  God said who would be saved and all the rest were created only to be destroyed.  You really want to buy into that?

LifeHisCost:God has foreknowledge of who will decide for Him and who will not. The right to free will is the risk God's creation, not once saved always saved which would make automatons.The final condition of the angel Lucifer is proof enough for me.

There is a foreknowledge thread.  I'd really like to discuss this with you guys on that thread. 

[Robert]

 

What do you think justification by faith is?

​Not what I think it is, but what I know it is! 

Justification, accepted by faith, i.e., justification by faith is our standing "in Christ" before God's law. I am complete in Him.  In Him I have answered the justice of the law.  In Him I have been made obedient to the law.  In Him I have a glorified humanity free from sin and mortality.  

Edited June 7, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

 

​​Prophets and Kings page 586

In his own strength, man cannot meet the charges of the enemy. In sin-stained garments, confessing his guilt, he stands before God. But Jesus, our Advocate, presents an effectual plea in behalf of all who by repentance and faith have committed the keeping of their souls to Him. He pleads their cause, and by the mighty arguments of Calvary, vanquishes their accuser. His perfect obedience to God's law has given Him all power in heaven and in earth, and He claims from His Father mercy and reconciliation for guilty man. To the accuser of His people He declares:

Page 587

"The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. These are the purchase of My blood, brands plucked from the burning." And to those who rely on Him in faith, He gives the assurance, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." Zechariah 3:4.

....As Joshua pleaded before the Angel, so the remnant church, with brokenness of heart and unfaltering faith, will plead for pardon and deliverance through Jesus, their Advocate. They are fully conscious of the sinfulness of their lives, they see their weakness and unworthiness; and they are ready to despair.

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are

Page 589

these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them."

​What's your point Robert?  When you quote things, please make a point.  Otherwise I have to read through all these quotes and guess what you're thinking by what you chose to bold or whatever, which is a lot of work, and a lot more error prone than if you simply make whatever point you want to make, and then present a quote to support your point.

The point I was making, to be clear, in the quotes from both Ellen White and E. J. Waggoner, is that righteousness by faith is not limited to legal matters.  The quotes I provided make this point clearly.

[Robert]

 

No, that's not what I said, nor the quote.  Please read the quote again.

​Okay, I misread it.  Never mind.

[pnattmbtc]

 

​Clearly believers are not measuring up to God's law, yet they have not given themselves totally over to the flesh.  That difference proves their faith, not their righteousness.

Here's another great EGW quote on this subject of "falling short" or our imperfection:

​For some reason the software didn't quote everything, but no matter, as it doesn't affect my response.

I quoted from both Ellen White and E. J. Waggoner to establish the point that the robe of righteousness which Christ provided is not speaking only of imputed righteousness.  The quote I provided is not speaking of anything different than the quotes you provided (not surprising, since they have the same author).  The points you look to be making do not have to do with the point I was making, which is, once again, that the robe of Christ's righteousness that both authors speak of is not limited to a legal matter, or imputed righteousness.  This is exactly what E. J. Waggoner writes (that it's not limited to a legal matter), and from Ellen White's quote, it is clear she is not talking only (or primarily) about imputed righteousness (as you use the term, by the way; she doesn't use "imputed" the same way you do; I'm using "imputed righteousness" here the way you use the term).

[Robert]

​What's your point Robert?  

​"all have sinned and fall short".  I thought it was apparent?

 

The point I was making, to be clear, in the quotes from both Ellen White and E. J. Waggoner, is that righteousness by faith is not limited to legal matters.  The quotes I provided make this point clearly.

The imputed righteousness of Christ saves.  That's a legal point because the law of God was broken and demanded the permanent death of the sinner.  To satisfy the law Christ had to legally fulfill it.  How He did this is called the gospel.  We can add nothing to this truth.

Now, the fruit of justification by faith is growing in grace or sanctification.  This is what witnesses to our salvation in Christ.  It has no merit and it is not the gospel.

[Robert]

... the robe of Christ's righteousness that both authors speak of is not limited to a legal matter, or imputed righteousness

​What's your point?  I see it as a legal matter.  How can God justify the sinner and yet legally maintain His law that justly condemns him?  God did it by uniting the corporate fallen race with Christ's Deity.  So you can say that "in Christ" you were made obedient and that "in Christ" you died to the law in body of Christ.  You can also say that you are now "in Christ Jesus" in heaven, in the most holy place, perfect before God's law.  We are complete in Him.  

Edited June 7, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

So you can say that "in Christ" you were made obedient and that "in Christ" you died to the law in body of Christ.  You can also say that you are now "in Christ Jesus" in heaven, in the most holy place, perfect before God's law.  We are complete in Him.  

​John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 

That's the gospel.  In Him we stand cleansed from sin (see Rom 6:6).  We are perfect in Him.  We stand just in the doing and dying of Christ.  This is justification by faith.

 

 

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 

 

This is the fruit of receiving the gospel by faith, i.e., sanctification.  Our job, if you will, is to abide in Him by faith.  If we do we will not condone and practice known sin as a legitimate lifestyle. A known sin is one we are convicted by God's Spirit to be sin but refuse to repent of it.  The one who practices sin is not abiding in Christ and will eventually apostatize. 

 

 

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 

 

 

In other words the one who does not abide in Christ by faith will take the curse of the law, i.e., the 2nd death, which is the lake of fire (God abandonment).

 

Edited June 7, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

The imputed righteousness of Christ saves.  That's a legal point because the law of God was broken and demanded the permanent death of the sinner.  To satisfy the law Christ had to legally fulfill it.  How He did this is called the gospel.  We can add nothing to this truth.

Now, the fruit of justification by faith is growing in grace or sanctification.  This is what witnesses to our salvation in Christ.  It has no merit and it is not the gospel.

The righteousness of Christ saves, or, better yet, the life of Christ saves us, or even Christ saves us.  The righteousness of Christ is both imputed and imparted.  To use EGW's language, the imputed righteousness is our title to heaven, and the imparted righteousness is our fitness for heaven.  Our fitness for heaven is just as important as our title to it.  This is a major point of our disagreement.

According to Reformationist theology, speaking of fitness for heaven is impossible, because of original sin.  But the 1888 message offers a rebuttal to this idea, because it does not affirm the original sin idea.  Here's an example from Waggoner:

We keep the everlasting life by keeping Christ. Now it is a very simple proposition that if we have been reconciled to God by the death of Christ, —if his life has been given to us for the remission of our sins, then we shall much more be saved by that life since he has risen from the dead. People sometimes say that they can believe that God forgives their sins, but they find it difficult to believe that he can keep them from sin. Well, if there is any difference, the latter is the easier of the two; for the forgiveness of sins requires the death of Christ, while the saving from sins requires only his continued life. http://www.1888mpm.org/blog/saved-his-life

I'd like to cite the whole quote, but that would be too long, so I'll cite it separately.

You're correct that there is no merit in the righteousness of Christ, but this includes both imputed and imparted righteousness.  Actually there is merit, but only on the part of Christ. 

[pnattmbtc]

Saved by His Life

Christ did not go through the pangs of death for nothing, nor did he give his life to us for the purpose of taking it away again. When he gives us his life, he designs that we shall keep it forever. How do we get it? By faith. How do we keep it? By the same faith. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord,  so walk ye in him” (Col. 2:6). His life can never end, but we may lose it by unbelief.

For let it be remembered that we have not this life in ourselves, but “this life is in his Son.” “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life” (1 John 5:11, 12). We keep the everlasting life by keeping Christ. Now it is a very simple proposition that if we have been reconciled to God by the death of Christ, —if his life has been given to us for the remission of our sins, then we shall much more be saved by that life since he has risen from the dead. People sometimes say that they can believe that God forgives their sins, but they find it difficult to believe that he can keep them from sin. Well, if there is any difference, the latter is the easier of the two; for the forgiveness of sins requires the death of Christ, while the saving from sins requires only his continued life.

By what life are we saved? By the life of Christ, and he has but one. He is “the same yesterday, and to-day, and forever” (Heb. 13:8). It is by his present life that we are saved, that is, by his life in us from day to day.  But the life, which he now lives, is the very same life that he lived in Judea eighteen hundred years ago.  He took again the same life that he laid down.  Think what was in the life of Christ, as we have the record in the New Testament, and we shall know what ought to be in our lives now.  If we allow him to dwell in us, he will live just as he did then.  If there is something in our lives that was not then in his, we may be sure that he is not living it in us now. (E. J. Waggoner)

[pnattmbtc]

... the robe of Christ's righteousness that both authors speak of is not limited to a legal matter, or imputed righteousness

​Robert:What's your point?  I see it as a legal matter.   

I know you see it as a legal matter, but this is not how Ellen White nor E. J. Waggoner, nor many others I could name, saw it.  When you accuse me of heresy, you are accusing these of heresy, because the view of justification by faith I'm presenting is not different from theirs.  This has been my point.

How can God justify the sinner and yet legally maintain His law that justly condemns him?  God did it by uniting the corporate fallen race with Christ's Deity.  So you can say that "in Christ" you were made obedient and that "in Christ" you died to the law in body of Christ.  You can also say that you are now "in Christ Jesus" in heaven, in the most holy place, perfect before God's law.  We are complete in Him. 

This is your position, but not theirs.  For example, consider how Waggoner interprets Romans 3:16

Christ is set forth to declare God’s righteousness for the remission of sins, in order that he might be just and at the same time the justifier of him who believes in Jesus. God justifies sinners, for they are the only ones who need justification. The justice of declaring a sinner to be righteous lies in the fact that he is actually made righteous. Whatever God declares to be so, is so. And then he is made righteous by the life of God given him in Christ. The sin is against God, and if he is willing to forgive it, he has the right to do so. No unbeliever would deny the right of a man to overlook a trespass against him. But God does not simply overlook the trespass; he gives his life as a forfeit. Thus he upholds the majesty of the law, and is just in declaring that man righteous who was before a sinner. Sin is remitted sent away from the sinner, because sin and righteousness cannot exist together, and God puts his own righteous life into the believer. So God is merciful in his justice, and just in his mercy. (Waggoner on Romans, ch. 3)

Or Ellen White:

But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. (DA 762) 

Notice that "the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer of Christ," and this this is involved in God's being "just, and the justifier which believeth in Jesus". 

[pnattmbtc]

 

That's the gospel.  In Him we stand cleansed from sin (see Rom 6:6).  We are perfect in Him.  We stand just in the doing and dying of Christ.  This is justification by faith.

 

 

 

This is the fruit of receiving the gospel by faith, i.e., sanctification.  Our job, if you will, is to abide in Him by faith.  If we do we will not condone and practice known sin as a legitimate lifestyle. A known sin is one we are convicted by God's Spirit to be sin but refuse to repent of it.  The one who practices sin is not abiding in Christ and will eventually apostatize. 

 

 

 

 

In other words the one who does not abide in Christ by faith will take the curse of the law, i.e., the 2nd death, which is the lake of fire (God abandonment).

 

Sorry about the display here, but it's the software.

​Ok, you quoted John 15:3, saying we are clean, which happened by the word of Christ, and that this is justification by faith.  I agree with this, but I think we have different ideas as to what this means.

The regenerated man has a vital connection with Christ. As the branch derives its sustenance from the parent stock, and, because of this, bears much fruit, so the true believer, united with Christ, reveals in his life the fruits of the Spirit. The branch becomes one with the vine; storm can not carry it away; frost can not destroy its vital properties. Nothing is able to separate it from the vine. It is a living branch, and it bears the fruit of the vine. So with the believer. By good words and good actions, he reveals the character of Christ. (RH 9/18/00)

This is a small portion of the article, where EGW is speaking of the part of John 15 from where comes the quote in question.  Justification by faith is conversion.  That's a simple and accurate synonym.  Here EGW uses the word "regeneration".  That's also a good synonym.  Sanctification is simply the process of justification continued throughout one's lifetime.

From A. T. Jones

Another thing. The word says, “Be ye clean.” He said, back yonder, “Let there be light, and there was light.” He said to the leper, “Be thou clean,” and “immediately” he was clean. He says now to you, “Be ye clean,” and what now? Every one of you—what do you say? [Voice: “It is so.”] Then for your soul's sake put yourself upon that creative word. Recognize the creative energy in the word of God which comes to you in the Bible, for this word of God in the Bible is the same here to you today that it was when it spoke into space the worlds on high and brought light out of darkness and cleansing to the leper. That word spoken to you today, if received, creates you new in Christ Jesus. That word, spoken in the dark waste and void space of your heart, if received, produces there the light of God; that word spoken today to you afflicted with the leprosy of sin, if received, immediately cleanses you. Let it. Let it. 

How shall I be clean? By the creative energy of that word, “Be ye clean.” Therefore it is written, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.” John 15:3. Are you? Will you from this moment be a creationist? Or will you go on being an evolutionist? 

See what a blessed thing this is. When you read the word, receive the word, and think upon the word, what is it to you all the time? O, it is creation! The creative energy is in you producing the things which the word speaks, and you are living in the very presence of the power of creation. Creation is going on in your life. God is creating in you righteousness, holiness, truth, faithfulness—every good and gracious thing. (Lessons on Faith RH 2/21/99)

Edited June 7, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

Two posts above this one should have said Romans 3:26 instead of Romans 3:16.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding what justification by faith is:

Justification by faith, then, is justification by depending upon the word of God only and expecting that word only to accomplish it.

Justification by faith is righteousness by faith, for justification is the being declared righteous.

Faith comes by the word of God. Justification by faith, then, is justification that comes by the word of God. Righteousness by faith is righteousness that comes by the word of God.

The word of God is self-fulfilling, for in creating all things, "he spake and it was." And when He was on earth, He stilled the raging sea, cleansed the lepers, healed the sick, raised the dead, and forgave sins, all by His word: there, too, "he spake, and it was."

Now the same One who, in creating, "spake, and it was", the same One who said, "Let there be light, and there was light," the same One who on earth spoke "the word only," and the sick were healed, the lepers were cleansed, and the dead lived--this same One speaks the righteousness of God unto and upon all that believe.

For though all have sinned and come short of the righteousness of God, yet we are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God hath set forth . . . to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God." (Lessons on Faith 12,13)

Edited June 7, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding what justification by faith is:

Justification by faith, then, is justification by depending upon the word of God only and expecting that word only to accomplish it.

Justification by faith is righteousness by faith, for justification is the being declared righteous.

Faith comes by the word of God. Justification by faith, then, is justification that comes by the word of God. Righteousness by faith is righteousness that comes by the word of God.

The word of God is self-fulfilling, for in creating all things, "he spake and it was." And when He was on earth, He stilled the raging sea, cleansed the lepers, healed the sick, raised the dead, and forgave sins, all by His word: there, too, "he spake, and it was."

Now the same One who, in creating, "spake, and it was", the same One who said, "Let there be light, and there was light," the same One who on earth spoke "the word only," and the sick were healed, the lepers were cleansed, and the dead lived--this same One speaks the righteousness of God unto and upon all that believe.

For though all have sinned and come short of the righteousness of God, yet we are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God hath set forth . . . to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God." (Lessons on Faith 12,13)

​

[LifeHiscost]

​Robert said: I am complete in Him. 

The term "accounted worthy" would suffice for salvation. However;

…3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him....

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

​

[Robert]

The righteousness of Christ is both imputed and imparted.  To use EGW's language, the imputed righteousness is our title to heaven, and the imparted righteousness is our fitness for heaven.  Our fitness for heaven is just as important as our title to it.  This is a major point of our disagreement.

​Absolutely we disagree!  We are complete "in Christ".  "Christ in you" is not the same as the "in Christ" truth.  "Christ in you" witnesses to our faith in the gospel or the "in Christ" motif.

Now, how fit must we be for our title to heaven? I've ask a similar question before and you avoided it too!

.

[Robert]

 The wages of sin would be death regardless of the law existing.  Sin is putting oneself before God, separating oneself from God, who alone is the source of life.  The principle of "me first", of selfishness, is not life sustaining!  It can do no other but lead to death.  The law doesn't cause this to happen; selfishness does. 

​ ​

No, sin causes the 1st death, but the law brings about the 2nd death.

1 cor 15:56 "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." 

[Robert]

  If we allow him to dwell in us, he will live just as he did then.  If there is something in our lives that was not then in his, we may be sure that he is not living it in us now. (E. J. Waggoner)

​

​"If" is good advice, but it's not the gospel.  The gospel is unconditional good news for sinners.  This subtle legalistic gospel is a tool of the devil to take our eyes off of Christ and place them on our performance.  If we do that we will surely be lost....Why?  Because if we are honest we will admit that we are not measuring up to Christ's selfless life of agape.

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [EGW]

Edited June 8, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

I know you see it as a legal matter, but this is not how Ellen White nor E. J. Waggoner, nor many others I could name, saw it.  When you accuse me of heresy, you are accusing these of heresy, because the view of justification by faith I'm presenting is not different from theirs.  This has been my point.

This is your position, but not theirs.  For example, consider how Waggoner interprets Romans 3:16

 

 Jones left the SDA church.  Waggoner went off in pantheism.  Their 1888 message was refreshing, but again they weren't infallible.  

The Bible is the ultimate source of truth - not Ellen White, not Jones nor Waggoner. Take what is good, but ultimately the Bible and the Bible alone is the Christian's source of truth.

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error.  The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible.  Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair.  No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."  Review and Herald, December 20,1892 

Edited June 8, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Or Ellen White:

Notice that "the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer of Christ," and this this is involved in God's being "just, and the justifier which believeth in Jesus". 

​Keep in mind what Ellen White stated: "He who says, 'I am holy, I am sinless,' is self-deceived.'"

And John states, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves" (1 John 1:8)

If, as you quoted, "the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer" than the believer could claim he was holy & sinless! So which is it?

What you are stating isn't the gospel, it's "another gospel". It's salvation by works.  

According to your view the law is fulfilled, not in the doing and dying of Christ, but because Christ actually makes the believer holy so he can stand before the law perfect through Christ's imparted righteousness.

 This is a heresy of the highest order.  In fact it's a Roman Catholic doctrine; they call it "infused grace".

Edited June 8, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

Now, how fit must we be for our title to heaven? I've ask a similar question before and you avoided it too!

Better yet, how righteous (fit) must I be in order to enter heaven?

Edited June 8, 2015 by Robert