Are we born justified?

[LifeHiscost]

 

Better yet, how righteous (fit) must I be in order to enter heaven?

​20"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.....Matthew 5

17"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."....Luke 18

8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."....Revelation 21

Seems pretty clear to me.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

​20"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.....Matthew 5

Let's list the last part of Matthew chapter 5:

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

How perfect are you to be?  

1] More than the scribes and Pharisees who had set themselves aside of the keeping of the law.

2] Just as perfect as God is perfect.

Are you as perfect as God?  

A simple no/yes answer will suffice. 

[pnattmbtc]

Me:The righteousness of Christ is both imputed and imparted.  To use EGW's language, the imputed righteousness is our title to heaven, and the imparted righteousness is our fitness for heaven.  Our fitness for heaven is just as important as our title to it.  This is a major point of our disagreement.

Robert:Absolutely we disagree!  We are complete "in Christ".  "Christ in you" is not the same as the "in Christ" truth.  "Christ in you" witnesses to our faith in the gospel or the "in Christ" motif.

Now, how fit must we be for our title to heaven? I've ask a similar question before and you avoided it too!

I've answered this every time you've asked it.  I've said that we need to be fit enough to be happy in heaven.  I've quoted the following:

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation

were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 542,543)

 

[pnattmbtc]

Robert:No, sin causes the 1st death, but the law brings about the 2nd death.

This doesn't make any sense.  The law doesn't bring about death (any kind of death); sin does. 

[pnattmbtc]

So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me?May it never be! Rather it was sin.(Romans 7)

[joeb]

​BTW, I'm not arguing. If silence isn't good enough evidence, present better evidence.

When you present evidence for what you believe it's called giving an argument for that position.  That's how I meant it. 

 

argument ~ noun    common
 1. a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true
it was a strong argument that his hypothesis was true
 2. a contentious speech act; a dispute where there is strong disagreement
they were involved in a violent argument
 3. a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal
the argument over foreign aid goes on and on
 4. a summary of the subject or plot of a literary work or play or movie
the editor added the argument to the poem
 5. (computer science) a reference or value that is passed to a function, procedure, subroutine, command, or program
 6. a variable in a logical or mathematical expression whose value determines the dependent variable; if f(x)=y, x is the independent variable
 7. a course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating a truth or falsehood; the methodical process of logical reasoning
I can't follow your line of reasoning

After seeing your further arguments I don't know that i am in full disagreement with you.  It may be just a problem with semantics.

[pnattmbtc]

  If we allow him to dwell in us, he will live just as he did then.  If there is something in our lives that was not then in his, we may be sure that he is not living it in us now. (E. J. Waggoner)

Robert:"If" is good advice, but it's not the gospel.  The gospel is unconditional good news for sinners.  This subtle legalistic gospel is a tool of the devil to take our eyes off of Christ and place them on our performance.  If we do that we will surely be lost....Why?  Because if we are honest we will admit that we are not measuring up to Christ's selfless life of agape.

To be clear here, what Ellen White called a "most precious message" you are calling "subtle legalistic gospel" which is "a tool of the devil."

How can a person be converted without an "if"?  Jesus said:

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Is this "subtle legalism" and "a tool of the devil"? 

[pnattmbtc]

Here's a nice description from EGW of how one is saved:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of theworld." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

Note that having the law written in the mind and heart is a part of the process. 

Also note that the fear of being lost by taking your eyes of Christ that you alluded is not a sufficient description of what is happening: "His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour."

God wants us to be saved.  To be lost involves resisting His drawing.

[pnattmbtc]

Me:I know you see it as a legal matter, but this is not how Ellen White nor E. J. Waggoner, nor many others I could name, saw it.  When you accuse me of heresy, you are accusing these of heresy, because the view of justification by faith I'm presenting is not different from theirs.  This has been my point.

This is your position, but not theirs.  For example, consider how Waggoner interprets Romans 3:26

 

 Robert:Jones left the SDA church.  Waggoner went off in pantheism.  Their 1888 message was refreshing, but again they weren't infallible.  

The Bible is the ultimate source of truth - not Ellen White, not Jones nor Waggoner. Take what is good, but ultimately the Bible and the Bible alone is the Christian's source of truth.

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error.  The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible.  Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair.  No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."  Review and Herald, December 20,1892 

The point is when you accuse me of heresy, and I'm presenting the same position as Ellen White, E. J. Waggoner, A. T. Jones, you are accusing them of heresy as well.  Such accusations detract from your position.  Seriously, how likely is it that Robert is the one who is correct, while Ellen White, Waggoner, and Jones are teaching "heresy"? 

[pnattmbtc]

Or Ellen White:
Me:Notice that "the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer of Christ," and this this is involved in God's being "just, and the justifier which believeth in Jesus". 

Robert:Keep in mind what Ellen White stated: "He who says, 'I am holy, I am sinless,' is self-deceived.'"

She's not constradicting herself.  Do you see a contradiction here?

And John states, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves" (1 John 1:8)

If, as you quoted, "the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer" than the believer could claim he was holy & sinless!

This is false, which is evident by what you yourself just quoted above from her writings.  That is, if one could make the claim you are suggesting, then Ellen White would be contradicting herself.

What you are stating isn't the gospel, it's "another gospel". It's salvation by works.  

You are asserting that Ellen White was teaching salvation by works.  I disagree.  She wrote the following:

There is not a point that needs to be dwelt upon more earnestly, repeated more frequently, or established more firmly in the minds of all than the impossibility of fallen man meriting anything by his own best good works. Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (FW 19)

I think someone who could articulate this concept this well understood that righteousness is by faith and not by works.

According to your view the law is fulfilled,

Not my view!  I didn't quote myself.

not in the doing and dying of Christ, but because Christ actually makes the believer holy so he can stand before the law perfect through Christ's imparted righteousness.

You're misquoting both Ellen White and Waggoner.  Why not quote what they actually said, and, if you disagree with it, present an argument as to why.

This is a heresy of the highest order.  In fact it's a Roman Catholic doctrine; they call it "infused grace".

The Roman Catholic doctrine is sacramental.  Waggoner's and White's idea have nothing to do with sacraments.  Ellen White did not teach heresy of the highest order.  Rather than name-calling, why not construct an argument of some sort? (based on something Ellen White actually wrote).

[LifeHiscost]

Let's list the last part of Matthew chapter 5:

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect

A simple no/yes answer will suffice. 

​ An inquiry of over 60 words demands more than one word to answer. Sorry about that.

  

3-5 (chs. 3:28; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8). Faith Lays Hold of Christ’s Righteousness

—Faith is the condition upon which God has

seen

fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin. Faith can present Christ’s

perfect

obedience instead of the sinner’s transgression and defection. When the sinner believes that Christ is his personal Saviour, then according to His unfailing promises, God pardons his sin and justifies him freely.

The repentant soul realizes that his justification comes because Christ, as his Substitute and surety, has died for him, is his atonement and righteousness.

.{6BC 1073.7} 

[Robert]

That's better....

[Robert]

It is not the law that is the cause of death but sin that is the sting of death. But because the law condemns sin it gives sin the legal right to execute the sinner [1 Cor. 15:56].

 

[Robert]

I've answered this every time you've asked it.  I've said that we need to be fit enough to be happy in heaven.

​That's nonsensical.  That's not an answer!  

[Robert]

This doesn't make any sense.  The law doesn't bring about death (any kind of death); sin does. 

​"The law brings wrath"....That's Paul.  Argue with him....

[Robert]

To be clear here, what Ellen White called a "most precious message" you are calling "subtle legalistic gospel" which is "a tool of the devil."

How can a person be converted without an "if"?  ....

Is this "subtle legalism" and "a tool of the devil"? 

Here's what I said:

​"If" is good advice, but it's not the gospel.  The gospel is unconditional good news for sinners.  This subtle legalistic gospel is a tool of the devil to take our eyes off of Christ and place them on our performance.  If we do that we will surely be lost....Why?  Because if we are honest we will admit that we are not measuring up to Christ's selfless life of agape.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

This doesn't make any sense.  The law doesn't bring about death (any kind of death); sin does. 

​"The law brings wrath"....That's Paul.  Argue with him....

Paul says the exact opposite of you.  I quoted you the verse.  That is, you say it's not sin that brings death (the second death) but the law, but Paul says it's not the law that brings death, but sin ("Rather it was sin").

Edited June 9, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

I've answered this every time you've asked it.  I've said that we need to be fit enough to be happy in heaven.

Robert:​That's nonsensical.  That's not an answer!  

 I don't know what you're not understanding.  You'd have to explain your thoughts.  I've quoted the following quite a few times:

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation

were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542-543)

This seems to me to be a clear answer to your question, not "nonsensical", and easy to understand. 

[pnattmbtc]

You are misquoting me.....Shame on you.

You'll have to explain how.  I normally quote what you say in its entirety, and then make comments, so I seriously doubt I misquoted you, but I may have misunderstood your point.  You'd have to elaborate as I don't know what you're disagreeing with.

In general, I've cited a couple of quotes regarding the robe of Christ's righteousness, from both Ellen White and E. J. Waggoner, which are in harmony with my understanding of righteousness by faith. 

[pnattmbtc]

Here's what I said:

​"If" is good advice, but it's not the gospel.  The gospel is unconditional good news for sinners.  This subtle legalistic gospel is a tool of the devil to take our eyes off of Christ and place them on our performance.  If we do that we will surely be lost....Why?  Because if we are honest we will admit that we are not measuring up to Christ's selfless life of agape.

What you wrote here was in reference to a quote by Ellen White.  I asked you if you thought the quote was "subtle legalism" and a "tool of the devil."  I don't know how else to take your response.  What were you intending to say? 

[Robert]

 

Paul says the exact opposite of you.  I quoted you the verse.  That is, you say it's not sin that brings death (the second death) but the law, but Paul says it's not the law that brings death, but sin ("Rather it was sin").

​Why would the believer need to be "delivered" from the law if it doesn't bring condemnation?  

Look at Rom 7:6 "we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by...."

We were held by the law waiting execution, which is the 2nd death. Gal 3:23 states the same: "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law"

Rom 7:10 states, " the very commandment that was intended to bring life (i.e, obey and live)  actually brought death."

Yes, sin brings death (the 1st), but the curse is God abandonment and Paul calls this "the curse of the law"

see Gal 3:12,13:

the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them (keeps the rules) shall by them live." 

What's the opposite of obtaining life by obedience?  Right, not having life through disobedience.  So the law requires obedience for life, and death (the 2nd death) for disobedience.

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us-

Edited June 9, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

What you wrote here was in reference to a quote by Ellen White.  I asked you if you thought the quote was "subtle legalism" and a "tool of the devil."  I don't know how else to take your response.  What were you intending to say? 

​Mrs White did teach subtle legalism, but then again her theology changed as she learned better.....

[LifeHiscost]

  I quoted you the verse.  That is, you say it's not sin that brings death (the second death) but the law, but Paul says it's not the law that brings death, but sin ("Rather it was sin").

​This is one facet of the full gospel. If it is left out, all your trust is in a divine government without a foundation.

21So get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives, and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls.

22But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves. 23For if you listen to the word and don’t obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror. 24You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like. 25But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it....James 1

Until one can love what God has given to protect His children, there is a broken wall that if not repaired before Jesus returns, we will be found wanting at His appearance.

2For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night. 3When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape. 4But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.^b 5For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night. 6So be on your guard, not asleep like the others.....1 Thessalonians 5

96Even perfection has its limits, but your commands have no limit. 97Oh, how I love your instructions,I think about them all day long.98Your commands make me wiser than my enemies, for they are my constant guide.

99Yes, I have more insight than my teachers, for I am always thinking of your laws.100I am even wiser than my elders, for I have kept your commandments. 101I have refused to walk on any evil path, so that I may remain obedient to your word.

Psalms 119

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

​Why would the believer need to be "delivered" from the law if it doesn't bring condemnation?  

Look at Rom 7:6 "we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by...."

We were held by the law waiting execution, which is the 2nd death. Gal 3:23 states the same: "Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law"

Rom 7:10 states, " the very commandment that was intended to bring life (i.e, obey and live)  actually brought death."

Yes, sin brings death (the 1st), but the curse is God abandonment and Paul calls this "the curse of the law"

see Gal 3:12,13:

the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them (keeps the rules) shall by them live." 

What's the opposite of obtaining life by obedience?  Right, not having life through disobedience.  So the law requires obedience for life, and death (the 2nd death) for disobedience.

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us-

​Ellen White:

"The law of God, spoken in awful grandeur from Sinai, is the utterance of condemnation to the sinner. It is the province of the law to condemn, but there is in it no power to pardon or to redeem. It is ordained to life; those who walk in harmony with its precepts will receive the reward of obedience (i.e, "obey & live"). But it brings bondage and death to those who remain under its condemnation (i.e., disobey & die")."  [The Review and Herald, April 22, 1902]

2 Cor 3: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone (the moral law), came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory,fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 

 

Edited June 9, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us-

​Christ saved us from "the curse of the law" by taking our curse upon our corporate life that He assumed.   

Did Christ die the 1st death or the 2nd?  Answer: The 2nd.

Christ didn't die our first death, which is a result of the fall.  Christ took "the curse of the law", which is God abandonment. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by Robert