Samie Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Isaiah's vision of the "new earth" is a little view of Messiah's 8th Day kingdom. This is BEFORE Gog/Magog. And Gog/Magog is BEFORE the Great White Throne judgment. Isaiah's vision is a view of the earth BEFORE the Great White Throne judgment. If BEFORE, then babies in the new earth are alive during the 7th millennium. They are not among those resurrected at the beginning of the 8th millennium. So, are their names in the book of life? Quote
Samie Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 It appears you're thinking of "require" here as if it were an arbitrary requirement. It's not an arbitrary requirement (i.e. imposed), but a real one. One has to be raised, or develop character if old enough to govern oneself, in a certain way, or one will not be fit for heaven. This is not a "requirement", but a description of reality. Those, whether children or not, who have been trained to be selfish can in no way go to heaven, because they wouldn't be happy there. Heaven would be torture for them. The issue is babies, but you talk of "if old enough to govern oneself". Where in Scriptures did you get your idea that babies you see UNFIT for heaven will be thrown into the lake of fire? Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Me:I'll respond in a general way, that your argument is based on an inference, that since Isaiah saw babies in the new earth, that this means that all babies will be resurrected. As far as I know, this is your only argument. To rebut this argument, I don't need to produce any verse stating something contrary to what you are asserting, but merely point out that your inference is not valid. Samie:Even if you want to show a verse contrary to what I am asserting you can't because there seems to be none, is there? If there is, then where, what verse? I agree with the Spirit of Prophesy on this subject, as I stated early in the thread, in her contention that this is not a subject upon which God has provided light, hence a lack of verses one way or the other. Me:That fact that Isaiah saw some babies in the new earth does not mean that every baby will be in the new earth. Samie:If God showed Isaiah babies in the new earth, then I believe, every baby who died before the age of accountability will be resurrected to live in the new earth because God does not show partiality. You have yet to produce a verse that says otherwise. I answered this assertion by pointing out that fitness is a necessity for entrance into heaven, hence that God can take certain ones into heaven and not others does not imply partiality on His part. You have pointed out the verse in Rev. many times speaking of the importance of overcoming in order to enter heaven. How can God do this without exhibiting partiality? It's the same principle whether applied to children or adults. Me:You're saying that there is no partiality with God, which is true; any baby fit to be resurrected will be resurrected. The fact that God is not partial does not mean that fitness is not an issue; it means that God will be fair in His judgment, and will not favor some over others because of irrelevant factors, such as being rich, or being free instead of slave or male instead of female. Samie:So, based on Scriptures, what makes a baby who died before the age of accountability UNFIT for the new earth? Any person trained to be self, whether an infant or not, would be unhappy in heaven. To be happy in heaven, we need to be in harmony with its principles. This training must happen in this life. For young children, the parents, (or caretakers of the chlid, to be more accurate) must be involved for this to happen. Jesus articulated the principle involved in His interview with Nicodemus, pointing out the importance of being born again. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Me: 1.Kill X, in which case X will be in heaven.2.Don't kill X, in which case X will be cast in the lake of fire. Wouldn't 1 be a better alternative than 2? After all, dying is just called "sleep" in Scripture. Wouldn't it be better to be put to sleep soon enough to spend eternity in heaven, rather than being case in the lake of fire? Samie:Again, where in Scriptures did you get the idea that God will throw babies into the lake of fire, babies who according to you are unfit? And you say your suggestion makes good sense? This seems unresponsive. I listed two alternatives and asked if alternative 1 wouldn't be better than alternative 2. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 NRS Revelation 20:15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. NRS Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Me:This is a great question. To my mind, it is because God's character is misunderstood. Our picture of God determines how we think, which determines the decisions we make, which determines our character. If we get the character of God wrong, how can we get the rest right? The Spirit of Prophecy tells us the "whole purpose of Christ's mission" was "the revelation of the Father" in order to set and keep men right. I don't think God's character has been given the importance it deserves. joeb:My answer to this same question is that the teaching that we cannot overcome, that sin is stronger than God, is commonplace. This teaching appeals to the unregenerated human heart for it gives an excuse to hang onto sin. If I can't overcome why try because God will just forgive me and make me perfect when He comes. I do agree with you that the correct understanding of God's character is very important, and as I think about this as I type I have come to agree with you that it is at the bottom of it all. It's a distortion of God's character to think that He will meekly submit to being used by sinners, for that is exactly what the popular teaching that we cannot overcome sin here and now actually teaches. If God could not just accept sin in the first place by forgiving unrepentant sinners then He cannot do that now either. His character hasn't changed and neither has the character of sin. Both cannot survive forever in our universe for they are completely at odds with each other. I agree. I think those who have trained their minds to love God and His principles only will be happy in heaven. It's not that God excludes others from heaven because they didn't do what He said, but God is not going to take people to heaven who would hate it there. What influenced me greatly in thinking this way is the chapter in the Great Controversy regarding the State of the Dead. In a part of this chapter, EGW argues against universalism, explaining that it is for the sake of the wicked themselves that they are not allowed into heaven, as for them it would be torture, and they would long to flee from it. It's like those who ask for mountains to fall on them when Christ comes again, as this would be preferable than beholding the face of their loving Redeemer. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 I agree with the Spirit of Prophesy on this subject, as I stated early in the thread, in her contention that this is not a subject upon which God has provided light, hence a lack of verses one way or the other. I answered this assertion by pointing out that fitness is a necessity for entrance into heaven, hence that God can take certain ones into heaven and not others does not imply partiality on His part. You have pointed out the verse in Rev. many times speaking of the importance of overcoming in order to enter heaven. How can God do this without exhibiting partiality? It's the same principle whether applied to children or adults. Jesus articulated the principle involved in His interview with Nicodemus, pointing out the importance of being born again. Not lack of verses. Here's more: NRS Revelation 20:15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. NRS Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. KJV Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. NRS Matthew 19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs. NRS Isaiah 11:6-9 6 The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder's den. 9 They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Quote
joeb Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Not lack of verses. Here's more: NRS Revelation 20:15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. NRS Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. KJV Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. NRS Matthew 19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs. NRS Isaiah 11:6-9 6 The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder's den. 9 They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Samie, Samie, Samie.... Those verses do not prove your point. That you say they do says you are not understanding what you read, or it says you're willing to twist a plain statement to the point you say it says something that it does not. One of the two are the only two possibilities that I see. A verse that says someone's name is not written in the lamb's book of life does not say everyone's name is, or once was, written in that book. You keep on trying to say it does, but no matter how many times you make that assertion your assertions will never make that true. It's simply not there. You remind me of a customer I once had. I looked at his piece of equipment that had broken down and determined what the failure was. I went to him and explained what I had found. His response? I can't afford that repair. Find something else wrong that I can afford to fix..... In other words, he just couldn't accept the reality of the situation. Your responses here are much the same. You keep on insisting that something which says A actually means B. No matter how many times you insist it means B the words actually say A. You can't change that. You'll never be able to change that. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Samie Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 joeb, joeb, joeb, joeb . . . . No matter what you say, I'd rather believe in what Scriptures say than in what you say. There are only two ultimate destinations. 1. New Heaven & New Earth; or 2. the Lake of fire. Those written in the book of life, Destination 1. Those not found there, Destination 2. Babies are seen in the new earth, therefore, their names are found written in the book of life. Whatever you say, I will repeat even for a thousand times what Scriptures say. Quote
Samie Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 And joeb, you never showed any Scripture in what you were explaining. And you want me to exchange my view with your view bereft of Scriptural basis? Quote
Samie Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 It's almost office time here in the Philippines. Had to meet an appointment. See you again, folks . . . Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 The issue is babies, but you talk of "if old enough to govern oneself". Where in Scriptures did you get your idea that babies you see UNFIT for heaven will be thrown into the lake of fire? I don't believe this. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2015 Posted June 1, 2015 Not lack of verses. Here's more: NRS Revelation 20:15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. NRS Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. KJV Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. NRS Matthew 19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of heaven belongs. NRS Isaiah 11:6-9 6 The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder's den. 9 They will not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain; for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. None of these verses say that everybody's name is written in the book of life. None of them say that every baby's name is written in the book of life. Even worse, none of them are even discussing this as a subject. You're committing a cardinal error of Biblical hermeneutics by trying to construct a doctrine from texts which have nothing to do with the subject under consideration. This is the same "logic" non-SDA's use to "prove" that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man teaches that those who die have an immortal soul. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
8thdaypriest Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 If BEFORE, then babies in the new earth are alive during the 7th millennium. They are not among those resurrected at the beginning of the 8th millennium. So, are their names in the book of life? No Samie. Babies will NOT be alive during the 7th millennium. They are not old enough to become "priests of God". Those raised or translated at the SC will be preparing to serve as priests under Christ, to teach and govern those raised 1000 years later. And yes - they WILL BE among those raised at the 8th millennium. They will be raised with ALL of those who lived and died in ignorance of God and His Law. They will be raised with "the rest of the dead". Quote 8thdaypriest
Samie Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 No Samie. Babies will NOT be alive during the 7th millennium. You said Isaiah's vision of babies in the new earth will be fulfilled in the 7th millennium, BEFORE Gog/Magog. Now you are saying babies will not be alive during the 7th millennium. So the children Isaiah saw in vision playing with the leopards and snakes are dead while playing? Isaiah's vision of the "new earth" is a little view of Messiah's 8th Day kingdom. This is BEFORE Gog/Magog. And Gog/Magog is BEFORE the Great White Throne judgment. Quote
Samie Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 No Samie. Babies will NOT be alive during the 7th millennium. They are not old enough to become "priests of God". Those raised or translated at the SC will be preparing to serve as priests under Christ, to teach and govern those raised 1000 years later. And yes - they WILL BE among those raised at the 8th millennium. They will be raised with ALL of those who lived and died in ignorance of God and His Law. They will be raised with "the rest of the dead". The only thing amiss is the absolute lack of Scriptures backing up your contention. Quote
Samie Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 None of these verses say that everybody's name is written in the book of life. None of them say that every baby's name is written in the book of life. Even worse, none of them are even discussing this as a subject. They do, but you close your eyes and refuse to see. Again, Scriptures tell of only two salvational destinations: Destination #1: New Heaven, New Earth; and Destination #2: Lake of Fire. NRS Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. NRS Revelation 20:15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. From the above verses, Destination #1 is for those whose names are in the book of life; and Destination #2 is for those whose names are not found written in the book of life. God Himself showed Isaiah that there will be babies in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9), therefore, their names are in the book of life. And since God shows no partiality, names of all babies were initially written in the book of life. Therefore, we were born with our names in the book of life, UNTIL blotted out at death for not overcoming evil while alive. You're committing a cardinal error of Biblical hermeneutics by trying to construct a doctrine from texts which have nothing to do with the subject under consideration. Now show me how I committed what you call "cardinal error of Biblical hermeneutics". Quote
Robert Posted June 2, 2015 Author Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) Those, whether children or not, who have been trained to be selfish can in no way go to heaven, because they wouldn't be happy there. Heaven would be torture for them. What a lame, nonsensical statement!!! It's laughable. The conclusion? Then YOU wouldn't be happy in heaven either seeing that you are bent-to-self and that you too do not love your neighbor as you love yourself! Christ never exhibited self-love and self-interests, can you say the same???? Edited June 2, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted June 2, 2015 Author Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) What a lame, nonsensical statement!!! It's laughable. The conclusion? Then YOU wouldn't be happy in heaven either seeing that you are bent-to-self and that you too do not love your neighbor as you love yourself! Christ never exhibited self-love and self-interests, can you say the same???? What does it mean to totally follow Christ? It means to have no self-interests, but to live only for others so as to build their wealth: Luke 9:57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go." 58 Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." 1 Cor 10:24 "Let no man seek his own (which is self-seeking), but every man another's wealth." Edited June 2, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted June 2, 2015 Author Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) What a lame, nonsensical statement!!! It's laughable. The conclusion? Then YOU wouldn't be happy in heaven either seeing that you are bent-to-self and that you too do not love your neighbor as you love yourself! Christ never exhibited self-love and self-interests, can you say the same???? Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them. Edited June 2, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 What a lame, nonsensical statement!!! It's laughable. The conclusion? Then YOU wouldn't be happy in heaven either seeing that you are bent-to-self and that you too do not love your neighbor as you love yourself! Christ never exhibited self-love and self-interests, can you say the same???? Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542-543) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Samie:They do, but you close your eyes and refuse to see. Again, Scriptures tell of only two salvational destinations: Destination #1: New Heaven, New Earth; and Destination #2: Lake of Fire. NRS Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life. NRS Revelation 20:15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. From the above verses, Destination #1 is for those whose names are in the book of life; and Destination #2 is for those whose names are not found written in the book of life. God Himself showed Isaiah that there will be babies in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9), therefore, their names are in the book of life. And since God shows no partiality, names of all babies were initially written in the book of life. Therefore, we were born with our names in the book of life, UNTIL blotted out at death for not overcoming evil while alive. Samie:Now show me how I committed what you call "cardinal error of Biblical hermeneutics. I already did, but I'm happy to repeat it. I wrote, in the top paragraph: "None of these verses say that everybody's name is written in the book of life. None of them say that every baby's name is written in the book of life. Even worse, none of them are even discussing this as a subject." This is the heremneutical problem. Where you are doing this especially is here: God Himself showed Isaiah that there will be babies in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9), therefore, their names are in the book of life. And since God shows no partiality, names of all babies were initially written in the book of life. Therefore, we were born with our names in the book of life, UNTIL blotted out at death for not overcoming evil while alive. Isaiah is not discussing the question as to whether baby's names are written in the book of life. Your whole argument is based on this one text, which has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Also, your logic is wrong. You're arguing that God has to write every baby's name in the book of life or He would be impartial. That would only be true if there were no pertinent differences between babies. You can't infer that from what is written here. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted June 2, 2015 Author Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven .... Notice that she says "transported to heaven" that is, without a change! Paul states that the believer, who is still exhibiting self-love, "shall be changed". When? At the 2nd coming. Read 1 Cor 15:50-52 So what degree of character perfection should the believer achieve before he is good enough to enter the pearly gates? Keep in mind another EGW quote: "The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." Edited June 2, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Notice that she says "transported to heaven" that is, without a change! Paul states that the believer, who is still exhibiting self-love, "shall be changed". When? At the 2nd coming. Read 1 Cor 15:50-52 So what degree of character perfection should the believer achieve before he is good enough to enter the pearly gates? Keep in mind another EGW quote: "The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." Of course they're transported to heaven without a change. That's the point; the character doesn't change. If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. AH16 Paul's not talking about our character. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Jesus continues: As you confess Me before men, so I will confess you before God and the holy angels. You are to be My witnesses upon earth, channels through which My grace can flow for the healing of the world. So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. I am the medium through which Heaven’s blessings shall come to you. And everyone who confesses Me by sharing My sacrifice for the lost shall be confessed as a sharer in the glory and joy of the redeemed. DA 357.1 He who would confess Christ must have Christ abiding in him. He cannot communicate that which he has not received. The disciples might speak fluently on doctrines, they might repeat the words of Christ Himself; but unless they possessed Christlike meekness and love, they were not confessing Him. A spirit contrary to the spirit of Christ would deny Him, whatever the profession. Men may deny Christ by evilspeaking, by foolish talking, by words that are untruthful or unkind. They may deny Him by shunning life’s burdens, by the pursuit of sinful pleasure. They may deny Him by conforming to the world, by uncourteous behavior, by the love of their own opinions, by justifying self, by cherishing doubt, borrowing trouble, and dwelling in darkness. In all these ways they declare that Christ is not in them. And “whosoever shall deny Me before men,” He says, “him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven.” DA 357.2 If you look at what you quoted in context, instead of just one sentence quoted out of context, you will see it says the same thing I was saying (or rather she) in the other quotes. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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