joeb Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Is this something I was talking about? I'm having difficulty understanding why you responded to my post with this. I wasn't talking about this (at least, in my mind I wasn't). If you see some link between what I wrote and what you're responding here, please let me know what it is. The link is that it is one of the basic contentions on this thread that people are basically born justified before God. I'm showing why God cannot act toward sinners in the way it is being alleged here. We cannot be born with our names in the book of life. I've outlined why. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
joeb Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) The choosing was done before the foundation of the world. Writing of names was from the foundation of the world. I have provided Scriptures. Please show me how they don't back up my position. Why would anyone want to try to do that again? You've been shown again and again that your assertions are not scriptural and you just repeat them again and again as if the repetition makes them true. Edited May 27, 2015 by joeb 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
8thdaypriest Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 How can God do the choosing BEFORE the foundation of the world if He does not know the names of who to choose? NKJ Ephesians 1:3-5 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love God the Father "chose" those who would one day believe in His son. God - who knows the future - KNEW who they would be. That does not equate with, God wrote every name of every person who would ever live - into the Book of His Son. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Like I said, I have enjoyed this debate. It has made me look deeply into those things I believe. I have no illusion that Robert or Samie will EVER change their view. We will simply have to agree to disagree. I will reference this thread whenever Samie posts his views into other threads. Edited May 27, 2015 by 8thdaypriest Quote 8thdaypriest
joeb Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Like I said, I have enjoyed this debate. It has made me look deeply into those things I believe. I have no illusion that Robert or Samie will EVER change their view. We will simply have to agree to disagree. I will reference this thread whenever Samie posts his views into other threads. Robert has been here for a long time and he's never shown an inclination to ever learn anything. He's positive he's correct and that no one can show him anything that will change is his mind, or at least that is how he shows himself to be. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
8thdaypriest Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 And just for the record, I DO NOT believe that evil angels had sex with human females, and gave birth to "demons". I know the verses. I do not interpret them in the same way that Samie does. phkrause 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Do you think we could discuss "the rest of the dead"? What Scripture passages do you believe support your belief that "the rest of the dead" are the wicked (lost) from the 6000 years from Adam's sin to the SC? I do NOT believe that "the rest of the dead" ARE all of the condemned. I believe they will be all of those who died in ignorance. I started a thread awhile back, but no one seemed very interested. Quote 8thdaypriest
Robert Posted May 28, 2015 Author Posted May 28, 2015 Robert , you pluck a verse here and a verse there and make a doctrine. Your use of Rom 6:6 is a prime example. Read verses 2-5 leading up to verse 6. Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection: Paul is talking about what baptism symbolizes. You go ino a watery grave and come up with new commitments and motivations.This speaking , of course, of those who choose baptism with a sincere faith. This is the conversion experience and you don't need baptism (if not possible to obtain). This conversion experience is not given you at the cross, for it comes with a faith that leads to surrender. Baptism is a symbol of the reality in Christ. The reality saves, not the symbolic. Our old life died when Chris was crucified (Rom 6:6). Rom 7:4 states the same. This is reality. Quote
Robert Posted May 28, 2015 Author Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) Like I said, I have enjoyed this debate. It has made me look deeply into those things I believe. I have no illusion that Robert or Samie will EVER change their view. We will simply have to agree to disagree. And I doubt you'll ever change your view.... Edited May 28, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Me:Is this something I was talking about? I'm having difficulty understanding why you responded to my post with this. I wasn't talking about this (at least, in my mind I wasn't). If you see some link between what I wrote and what you're responding here, please let me know what it is. joab:The link is that it is one of the basic contentions on this thread that people are basically born justified before God. I'm showing why God cannot act toward sinners in the way it is being alleged here. We cannot be born with our names in the book of life. I've outlined why. This isn't cricket! Your cutting out what was said, so there's no context, and using words like "this" and "it" with no reference to what "this" and "it" are. If you wish to respond to something I've said, please quote enough of what was said to that it can be seen what you are talking about. teresaq 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 God the Father "chose" those who would one day believe in His son. God - who knows the future - KNEW who they would be. That does not equate with, God wrote every name of every person who would ever live - into the Book of His Son. We should be discussing this on the other thread that was just started not long ago. This thread has been a catch-all for everything under the son, but that's actually kind of fun, since these things all tie together anyway. God didn't choose individuals as in "Fred" or "Joe" or whoever, but a class of individuals, namely those who would believe in Christ. The choosing is in Christ. For example, I could say, that I have chosen since the foundation of this century that whoever gets on a flight to Hawaii on July 4th of this year, I will meet. Anyone can get on the flight, and if they do, I will meet them. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Samie:The choosing was done before the foundation of the world. Writing of names was from the foundation of the world. I have provided Scriptures. Please show me how they don't back up my position. I did in the post to which you are responding. You could quote the part of my argument that you disagree with and explain why. Otherwise I'm just repeating what I just said. I made the point that none of the texts you provided say that the names are written in the book of life since the foundation of the world, but that they are NOT written in the book of life. For example: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8 This is speaking of people whose names are NOT written in the book of life. No text you have provided says that everybody's name is written in the book of life. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 joeb:Robert has been here for a long time and he's never shown an inclination to ever learn anything. He's positive he's correct and that no one can show him anything that will change is his mind, or at least that is how he shows himself to be. It's unusual for people in this type of forum to change their mind, whoever they are. I'm thought about why, and I think it's simply that people who like to take part in these forums are not people who like to change their minds. In spite of that, it can be a great learning opportunity. I've learned a lot on this thread. Wouldn't mind if it keeps going on. teresaq 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 We all are heaven-bound unless blotted out at death for not overcoming evil while alive. We all are heaven bound unless we resist the love of God drawing us to the cross. If we do not resist, we will be justified by faith, and evidence of our conversion will be the overcoming of sin. I don't see any mention of faith anywhere in your posts. Surely you must believe faith is important. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted May 28, 2015 Author Posted May 28, 2015 Baptism is not a "symbol of the reality of Christ"It is a sacred ordinace and a public declaration that you have made a conscious willful decision to die to your old life and choose Jesus as your Lord. Your old life does not die until you are convicted and converted. Then Baptism is the Savior..... If your old life has died then why aren't you living Christ's life of agape? Quote
8thdaypriest Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Could you point me to that thread.I would like to look at it. Thanks "the rest of the dead" - who are they? Started by 8thdaypriest, 24 Aug 2013 There was a little discussion - couple of pages. Quote 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 jackson: Baptism ... is a sacred ordinance and a public declaration that you have made a conscious willful decision to die to your old life and choose Jesus as your Lord. Your old life does not die until you are convicted and converted. Robert:Then Baptism is the Savior..... Your contention is that if baptism is a public declaration that you have made a conscious willful decision to die to your old life and choose Jesus as your Lord, then baptism is the savior? How do you figure this? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
joeb Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 This isn't cricket! Your cutting out what was said, so there's no context, and using words like "this" and "it" with no reference to what "this" and "it" are. If you wish to respond to something I've said, please quote enough of what was said to that it can be seen what you are talking about. Really? You think I'm supposed to go back two or three posts and post all your own words? You don't know what you've said? Methinks this is about attacking me rather than dealing with the issues I've raised. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) joeb:Really? You think I'm supposed to go back two or three posts and post all your own words? You don't know what you've said? Methinks this is about attacking me rather than dealing with the issues I've raised. Not all words, just the ones you're talking about. Yes, you should do this. When you leave out the context, it can make what you're saying misleading (by making it appear the person you are responding to is saying something he didn't say) or imcomprehensible. This has happened several times. I'd be happy to deal with any issue you'd like to raise. What's the issue? Edited May 28, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted May 29, 2015 Author Posted May 29, 2015 Your contention is that if baptism is a public declaration that you have made a conscious willful decision to die to your old life and choose Jesus as your Lord, then baptism is the savior? How do you figure this? You've got it all wrong....I said Baptism is a symbol that points to the reality "in Christ". Christ saves, not the symbol. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted May 29, 2015 Posted May 29, 2015 When your old self dies you are "born anew" so to speak; but born as a baby in Christ not a mature adult, Are you of so little faith that you think God's grace is insufficient to have you grow in stature and grace with men and God and eventually have the mind of Christ in this life? "Christ in you the hope of glory" is provided for at the cross but initiated at conversion when you consent by unconditional surrender. 1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 2 Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
pnattmbtc Posted May 29, 2015 Posted May 29, 2015 jackson:It(baptism) is a sacred ordinace and a public declaration that you have made a conscious willful decision to die to your old life and choose Jesus as your Lord. Your old life does not die until you are convicted and converted. Robert:Then Baptism is the Savior..... Me:Your contention is that if baptism is a public declaration that you have made a consious willful decision to die to your old life and choose Jesus as your Lord, then baptism is the savior? How do you figure this? Robert:You've got it all wrong....I said Baptism is a symbol that points to the reality "in Christ". Christ saves, not the symbol. If you quote the relevant part of the conversation, it's a lot easier to follow, and see that I got nothing "wrong". I asked you to explain *your* conclusion; I didn't make an assertion. jackson wrote what is quoted above, to which you responded "Then Baptism is the Savior". My question is how you come to the conclusion that baptism in your savior based on what jackson wrote, as I don't see why one would come to this conclusion. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
joeb Posted May 29, 2015 Posted May 29, 2015 Do you think we could discuss "the rest of the dead"? What Scripture passages do you believe support your belief that "the rest of the dead" are the wicked (lost) from the 6000 years from Adam's sin to the SC? I do NOT believe that "the rest of the dead" ARE all of the condemned. I believe they will be all of those who died in ignorance. I started a thread awhile back, but no one seemed very interested. To whom are you addressing this post? Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
joeb Posted May 29, 2015 Posted May 29, 2015 It's unusual for people in this type of forum to change their mind, whoever they are. I'm thought about why, and I think it's simply that people who like to take part in these forums are not people who like to change their minds. In spite of that, it can be a great learning opportunity. I've learned a lot on this thread. Wouldn't mind if it keeps going on. If we don't undertake any Bible study with the attitude that we're here to learn of what use is it? Will we be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit in that study? I don't think so. I have had to change my mind about some pretty important things during my decades of Bible study. I've changed my stance on things like the nature of Christ, the underpinnings of the plan of salvation(what is the legal basis for the plan of salvation for God's government is one based upon law), and the character of God. All of these things are at the foundation of what we believe about God so they are not beliefs that are easy to change for they reflect a major change in my beliefs. For example, one of the beliefs of mine that changed due to this forum and due to people teaching things like Robert and Samie is my belief in the law of inheritance. I've seen its real importance for the first time. I've seen how a correct understanding of it vaccinates us against errors like the "in Christ" motif. It makes plain how far someone has to twist scripture to believe in it when there is a plain and simple Biblical explanation to the questions that led to the formation of the "in Christ" belief. i Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
pnattmbtc Posted May 29, 2015 Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) If we don't undertake any Bible study with the attitude that we're here to learn of what use is it? Will we be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit in that study? I don't think so. I have had to change my mind about some pretty important things during my decades of Bible study. I've changed my stance on things like the nature of Christ, the underpinnings of the plan of salvation(what is the legal basis for the plan of salvation for God's government is one based upon law), and the character of God. All of these things are at the foundation of what we believe about God so they are not beliefs that are easy to change for they reflect a major change in my beliefs. For example, one of the beliefs of mine that changed due to this forum and due to people teaching things like Robert and Samie is my belief in the law of inheritance. I've seen its real importance for the first time. I've seen how a correct understanding of it vaccinates us against errors like the "in Christ" motif. It makes plain how far someone has to twist scripture to believe in it when there is a plain and simple Biblical explanation to the questions that led to the formation of the "in Christ" belief. Hi joeb. I agree with the points you are making in the first paragraph. I think it's common for young people especially to be very convinced that they are right in their views; often as people age they become aware of the possibility of being wrong about things they were absolutely convinced they were right about. I know this has happened to me many times. Being open to the possibility of being wrong and willing to change one's opinion upon evidence is a great asset, and I agree that undertaking Bible study (or any pursuit of truth) without an attitude of wanting to learn is not worthwhile. Regarding the beliefs of others, I think we should be as charitable as we can be. There are things in the "in Christ" motif which are of value, which isn't surprising, because the roots come from Jones and Waggoner. I take issue with some of the interpretations and emphases I see (which differ from what I see when reading Waggoner), but I don't want to through the baby out with the bath water. Edited May 29, 2015 by pnattmbtc teresaq 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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