Are we born justified?

[Robert]

​When you say that the law demands death, you're talking about the ceremonial law?  Would you please construct an argument?  I don't know what your thinking is.  Here's my thinking: Gal 3:13 is referring to the blessings and cursings of Deuteronomy 28, which, as can be seen from the passage, are cause and effect. 

I can't believe that you are having a hard time with this issue.  This was settled during the 1888 GC.  Of course the majority of the church rejected the message, especially "the law in Galatians."

Now, here's a question: What law did Paul have in mind in Gal 3:11-13, 24-26?

11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just by faith shall live." 

12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will by them live." 

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

 

​Gal 3:23 Before the faith (Christ) came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith (Christ) should be revealed. 4 So the law was put in charge to until Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith (Christ) has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​Anyone who will buy that will believe anything.  I don't care how "scientific" it is. 

True

[Robert]

I can't believe that you are having a hard time with this issue.  This was settled during the 1888 GC.  Of course the majority of the church rejected the message, especially "the law in Galatians."

Now, here's a question: What law did Paul have in mind in Gal 3:11-13, 24-26?

11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just by faith shall live." 

12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will by them live." 

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

 

​Gal 3:23 Before the faith (Christ) came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith (Christ) should be revealed. 4 So the law was put in charge to until Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith (Christ) has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

​Here's Ellen White:

"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Robert

[Samie]

    The cross made provision for the forgiveness of our sins, but our response to the cross determines whether we are forgiven or not.

Rom  3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 
 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 

1. All sinned, therefore, all are sinners:

Romans 3:23  ²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2. Sinners were justified FREELY through redemption:

KJV Romans 3:23-24   ²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;  ²⁴ Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

3.  Redemption occurred when Jesus died:

Revelation 5:9   And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Therefore, all were justified when Jesus died.

[pnattmbtc]

Hi pnattmbtc;

I guess you didn't notice I don't have the same idea as Ballenger's.  Whereas Ballenger says the slaves "didn't experience freedom individually until they heard the good news", my position is God through Christ FREED us from sin, whether we know it or not.

It's the same position.  The slaves were freed whether they knew it or not.  You must have some concept in your thinking of justification by faith, and that this results in freedom.  This is all over Paul's writings, for example, Galatians 5.   

[pnattmbtc]

And that's another thickener to the dividing line: Whereas the popular gospel teaches that people need to believe and repent so they can be made spiritually alive, the pure gospel teaches that people can believe and repent because they are spiritually alive.

This isn't accurate.  One can only be spiritually alive by accepting Christ as one's personal savior.  This is taught in many places.  For example, the vine and the branches.  "I am come that you might have life, and have it abundantly."  How do we receive this abundant (spiritual) life?  By faith.  "The just shall life by faith."  There are many places that teach this.  To be spiritually alive, one must be connected to Christ by faith, just like the vine and the branches.  It's true that we can only repent and believe because Christ first gave His life for us, but we should be careful how we word things. 

[pnattmbtc]

It's grudge that separates friends; it's sin that separates man from God. It's man that has grudge (sin), not God. Man cannot remove his sin. So God removed it, and man was reconciled to God.

You write, "It's man that has grudge, not God".  You actually wrote "grudge (sin)" which is confusing, because grudge and sin are not synonymous, but that man is the one that has the grudge against God is exactly right.  But this isn't something God can unilaterally remove.  Man's heart must be changed, to remove that grudge.

[pnattmbtc]

​No it didn't change God, but the cross provided the justice needed before reconciliation was possible. The wages of sin was death and that sentence must be carried out or justice could not be done.

Jesus voluteered to be the propitiation for sinners taking the penalty for them, thereby fulfilling the requirement for justice. God is infinitely merciful, but the same applies to His justice.

From Waggoner:

A propitiation is a sacrifice. The statement then is simply that Christ is set forth to be a sacrifice for the remission of our sins. “Once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Hebrews 9:26. Of course the idea of a propitiation or sacrifice is that there is wrath to be appeased. But take particular notice that it is we who require the sacrifice, and not God. He provides the sacrifice. The idea that God’s wrath has to be propitiated in order that we may have forgiveness finds no warrant in the Bible. 

To see how God forgives us, look at how Jesus forgave.  Did He require a sacrifice in order to forgive the paralytic?

[pnattmbtc]

I can't believe that you are having a hard time with this issue.  This was settled during the 1888 GC.  Of course the majority of the church rejected the message, especially "the law in Galatians."

Just because I disagree with you on a point, doesn't mean I've having a "hard time with this issue."  You threw a bunch of verses together with no comment of your own.  Why would you think this is a useful way to proceed?  How does that communicate what you are thinking?

 

Now, here's a question: What law did Paul have in mind in Gal 3:11-13, 24-26?

11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just by faith shall live." 

12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will by them live." 

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

 

​Gal 3:23 Before the faith (Christ) came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith (Christ) should be revealed. 4 So the law was put in charge to until Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that the faith (Christ) has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

The moral law. 

One more point, you completely cut off the argument I made.  Communication is a two way street.  I took the time to write out in complete paragraphs my thought, but rather than take into account what points I was making, and respond to them in some way, you didn't comment at all.  I don't even know if you read what I wrote.  And you still haven't presented any sort of argument.

Edited May 24, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

1. All sinned, therefore, all are sinners:

Romans 3:23  ²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2. Sinners were justified FREELY through redemption:

KJV Romans 3:23-24   ²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;  ²⁴ Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

3.  Redemption occurred when Jesus died:

Revelation 5:9   And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Therefore, all were justified when Jesus died.

​What about Romans 4:25?

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

[8thdaypriest]

NRS  1 Timothy 2:3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This doesn't sound like everyone is BORN in a "saved" condition. 

[Robert]

NRS  1 Timothy 2:3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This doesn't sound like everyone is BORN in a "saved" condition. 

​How do we come out of Adam?  After all we all share his life, right?  Like Eve we are bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh.  We come out of Adam as individuals through procreation.

Now, do we arrive guilty and condemned for transgression?  No, that's the heresy of original sin. So God's law cannot legally & ethically hold us responsible for sin until we "come to the knowledge of the truth".

Since we do not arrive in this world condemned (see Rom 5:18) the law doesn't put us "in prison" (see Gal 3:23) locked up in death row.  Therefore we come into this world free from condemnation.  Now, when we mature and the law exposes us as transgressors then we have to make a choice:

a] Accept what is already true of the goodnews in Christ

or

b] Reject it.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2015 by Robert

[8thdaypriest]

​How do we come out of Adam?  After all we all share his life, right?  Like Eve we are bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh.  We come out of Adam as individuals through procreation.

Now, do we arrive guilty and condemned for transgression?  No, that's the heresy of original sin. So God's law cannot legally & ethically hold us responsible for sin until we "come to the knowledge of the truth".

Since we do not arrive in this world condemned (see Rom 5:18) the law doesn't put us "in prison" (see Gal 3:23) locked up in death row.  Therefore we come into this world free from condemnation.  Now, when we mature and the law exposes us as transgressors then we have to make a choice:

a] Accept what is already true of the goodnews in Christ

or

b] Reject it.

 

 

​Being physically BORN not yet guilty of any sin, is NOT the same thing as being granted an immortal physical body - (essentially being recreated). 

[Robert]

​Being physically BORN not yet guilty of any sin, is NOT the same thing as being granted an immortal physical body - (essentially being recreated). 

​So the question is when were you recreated?

Eph 2:God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 

When you were spiritually dead (no indwelling holy spirit), you were "made alive with Christ" because He assumed your corporate life from Adam after the fall.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Robert

[8thdaypriest]

​So the question is when were you recreated?

Eph 2:God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 

When you were spiritually dead (no indwelling holy spirit), you were "made alive with Christ" because He assumed your corporate life from Adam after the fall.

​No Robert.    Paul is writing "To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful (meaning full of faith) in Christ Jesus" (Eph 1:1 NKJ). His statement later in the SAME LETTER, is written TO those who are "faithful in Christ Jesus" - NOT to every person who has ever existed.  

You have taken Paul's statement OUT OF CONTEXT to make it say something it DOES NOT SAY. 

I'm not sure why the concept of COVENANT has not come into this discussion.  A covenant is an agreement between at least TWO PARTIES.  God has always said, "Keep my covenant" and "I will be God to you" and "I will bless you."   In Eden God said, work 6 days then rest 1 day, cleave to one woman in marriage, do not eat of the "tree of the knowledge".   After they broke covenant, they were to bring a "sin offering" and thank offerings (at the harvests), in order to STAY within covenant.  Abraham was to "walk before Me and be blameless".  Those who "called upon the LORD" and offered sacrifice to the LORD, were expressing FAITH that He would hear and answer them.  Then there was the Sinai Covenant.  It lasted until Christ died. 

Now we have available to us the "New Covenant". 

If - as Robert says, all men (for all time) were "made just" with God when Christ DIED, then there is no NEW Covenant.  What we have now is NOT NEW.  It has been there all along.  And we do NOT have to ENTER IN to the New Covenant with God through Christ, by expressing our faith through baptism in His name, and then partaking of the "bread" and "the wine", in order to be restored to Covenant with God. 

The "New Covenant" is a betrothal covenant.  Paul said that he had "betrothed" the believers to "one husband" - even Christ Jesus.  The entire world was NOT betrothed to Christ, when when the Son of God pledged Himself a ransom.   Only those who would later willingly and willfully ENTER that covenant.    In Israel, infants and children were NOT pledged in marriage.  A girl had to come to the "age of consent" before she could be pledged.  Same with "the church" - which IS "His body". 

[Robert]

​No Robert.    Paul is writing "To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful (meaning full of faith) in Christ Jesus" (Eph 1:1 NKJ).....

​Yes, Paul is writing to the saints in Ephesus, but the context of what he states is clear and that is that they were made alive in Christ even when (they) were dead in transgressions....

Context, context!

[Robert]

If - as Robert says, all men (for all time) were "made just" with God when Christ DIED, then there is no NEW Covenant. 

​Sure there's a NC.  Do you think that an infant understands these concepts?  No!  How about the mentally handicapped?  Again, no.  How about all those aborted fetuses? Again, absolutely not.  So too bad for them, huh?  Again, if what I'm stating is error then Satan is winning in the great controversy and the good news as it is "in Christ" is really only good advice.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

​How do we come out of Adam?  After all we all share his life, right?  Like Eve we are bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh.  We come out of Adam as individuals through procreation.

Now, do we arrive guilty and condemned for transgression?  No, that's the heresy of original sin. So God's law cannot legally & ethically hold us responsible for sin until we "come to the knowledge of the truth".

Since we do not arrive in this world condemned (see Rom 5:18) the law doesn't put us "in prison" (see Gal 3:23) locked up in death row.  Therefore we come into this world free from condemnation.  Now, when we mature and the law exposes us as transgressors then we have to make a choice:

a] Accept what is already true of the goodnews in Christ

or

b] Reject it.

 

 

​Our problem is not the law but us.  We need to be fixed so we love God instead of hating Him.  What good would it do to take people to heaven who hate God?

[pnattmbtc]

​Sure there's a NC.  Do you think that an infant understands these concepts?  No!  How about the mentally handicapped?  Again, no.  How about all those aborted fetuses? Again, absolutely not.  So too bad for them, huh?  Again, if what I'm stating is error then Satan is winning in the great controversy and the good news as it is "in Christ" is really only good advice.

​If the Good News is that God is not how Satan has accused Him of being, but in reality is like Jesus Christ, then the entirety of the Gospels becomes relevant to the Gospel.  But if the "Good News" is limited to the single concept of legal justification, then, well, that's very limited :).

If one has the idea that Jesus Himself did not preach the Gospel, that's evidence in the starkest possible manner that there's in an error in thought somewhere.

There's a bigger picture here in terms of what the Good News is.  What about the powers of darkness being overcome?  How could that be ignored?  This is central to both the message of Jesus and Paul (actually everything Paul preached was central to the message Jesus preached, because Paul got his Gospel from Jesus).

[Robert]

But if the "Good News" is limited to the single concept of legal justification, then, well, that's very limited

​It's your only ticket to heaven.  Everything else pales in comparison. Yes, in Christ's justification of the human race the love of God is seen because He was willing to say goodbye to life, not for 3 days, but for eternity.  That's agape and God is agape.

[Robert]

​Our problem is not the law but us.  We need to be fixed so we love God instead of hating Him.  What good would it do to take people to heaven who hate God?

​No, the law condemns sinners and to be under law and a sinner is problematic.  So Christ came to deliver us, legally, from under law to under grace.

Your question is meaningless because the believer is raised in complete harmony with God's agape love.  

[Samie]

You write, "It's man that has grudge, not God".  You actually wrote "grudge (sin)" which is confusing, because grudge and sin are not synonymous, but that man is the one that has the grudge against God is exactly right.  But this isn't something God can unilaterally remove.  Man's heart must be changed, to remove that grudge.

​I was merely using the same word "grudge" you used in explaining your position relative to reconciliation which occurred when Jesus died (Rom 5:10):

​ An interesting question to ask is what this means.  If we think in normal terms, as to what reconciliation means, it would be something along the lines that you have a grudge against someone, but then something happens, and you no longer hold a grudge against them.  However, God obviously had to already have been in the state of not having a grudge against man, or He wouldn't have given His Son to die for man in the first place.  So what happened, or happens, must happen to man, not God, as the cross didn't change God in any way.

​And to which I replied:

It's grudge that separates friends; it's sin that separates man from God. It's man that has grudge (sin), not God. Man cannot remove his sin. So God removed it, and man was reconciled to God.

​Because the change must occur NOT to God but to man who cannot change his condition, God changed man's condition by removing man's "grudge" which I paralleled to "sin".

 

[Samie]

This isn't accurate.  One can only be spiritually alive by accepting Christ as one's personal savior.  This is taught in many places.  For example, the vine and the branches.  "I am come that you might have life, and have it abundantly."  How do we receive this abundant (spiritual) life?  By faith.  "The just shall life by faith."  There are many places that teach this.  To be spiritually alive, one must be connected to Christ by faith, just like the vine and the branches.  It's true that we can only repent and believe because Christ first gave His life for us, but we should be careful how we word things. 

​You just did a paradox:

1. "One can only be spiritually alive by accepting Christ as one's personal savior."

2. "To be spiritually alive, one must be connected to Christ by faith, just like the vine and the branches."

If one can do the spiritual act of "accepting Christ" then one is not spiritually dead, because only the spiritually alive can do spiritual acts.  Our being connected to Christ is God's work FOR us. He did this through Christ on the cross (Eph 2:11-19).

As in the analogy of vine and branches, fruit-bearing can occur because the vine is attached to the branch. Fruit-bearing  results from being alive. Being alive is the result of being attached to the branch. "Acceptance" results from being spiritually alive. Not the other way around.

Believing is the exercise of Faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Fruit results from being attached to the Branch. To say "believe to be attached to Christ" is saying "Bear fruit to be attached to the branch".

[Samie]

​What about Romans 4:25?

​Yes, Jesus was raised for our justification, because justification is a continual process. It is continuously applied.

[Samie]

NRS  1 Timothy 2:3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This doesn't sound like everyone is BORN in a "saved" condition. 

​"To be saved" refers to the future tense of salvation, NOT to the past tense of salvation as in a "saved" condition.

And there are 3 tenses of salvation: Past, Present, Future.