Are we born justified?

[Samie]

​I agree!

At the SC, most are "slain by the brightness of His coming".  This is instant.

It seems there is no text in the Bible that supports the idea that at the Second Coming the unrighteous throng, will be instantly "slain by the brightness of His coming". The one in 2 Thes 2:8 refers to only ONE individual. And the word "slain" (KJV/NKJ "destroy") is from the Greek katargh,sei (verb indicative future active 3rd person singular from katarge,w), the same word used in Rom 3:3:

NKJ 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

^BGT 2 Thessalonians 2:8 kai. to,te avpokalufqh,setai o` a;nomoj( o]n o` ku,rioj ÎVIhsou/jÐ avnelei/ tw/| pneu,mati tou/ sto,matoj auvtou/ kai. katargh,sei th/| evpifanei,a| th/j parousi,aj auvtou/(

NKJ Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?

NIV Romans 3:3 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness?

^BGT Romans 3:3 ti, ga,rÈ eiv hvpi,sthsa,n tinej( mh. h` avpisti,a auvtw/n th.n pi,stin tou/ qeou/ katargh,seiÈ

I'd be glad to be shown texts that support the slaying of all or most of the wicked at the SC.

 

[Samie]

​It has been noted several times that the word "ALL" , as used in Scripture, is dependent upon the context.  

Samie concentrates on "all who are in the graves" and says this ALL includes every human being who has ever lived.  I do not agree.  I believe this "all" will include ONLY those who have "done good" and "those who have done evil". 

In this context, Jesus says that ALL who have done good, will rise to "the resurrection of life".   AND   ALL "who have done evil", will rise to "the resurrection of condemnation". 

This agrees with Daniel 12:2-3.  But Daniel 12:2-3 says "many of those who sleep in the dust will awake".  That passage does NOT SAY "all of those who sleep in the dust". 

Which is WHY I believe the "all" in John 5:28-29 is relative. 

John 5:28 "Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (NRS)

What about those who have done NEITHER good NOR evil. 

​Scriptures answer:

Deuteronomy 1:39   Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

I think the word "many" can mean "all", but the word "all" cannot simply mean "many", I guess. When the teacher says "All in row 3, stand up", I guess every one in row 3 stands up, not anyone exempted. Same thing when our Master Teacher says "All in the graves, rise".

[pnattmbtc]

They are not counted against us (2 Cor 5:18,19) by our Lord Who was resurrected for our justification (Rom 4:25). This is why sin cannot have dominion over us anymore (Rom 6:14). But the act of sinning is proof that a person has not yet overcome evil with good.

2 Cor 5 is corporate, but Rom 6:14 is not, which is clear by looking at the context:

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Regarding sins not being counted against us, this is talking from God's point of view.  That is, God, because He is gracious, does not count our sins against us.  But sin still damages us, and it will kill us, if we refuse to be healed.

Our problem is not that God will kill us if we don't overcome, but that sin will kill us if we don't overcome (which can only happen by our being healed).

[Samie]

​The "you" in this passage,  (you -- are in Christ Jesus) is addressing BELIEVERS at Corinth - NOT all mankind. 

Were they the only ones Paul really addressed? Let's consider his opening greetings:

NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:1-2   1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,  2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours

Looks like his greetings include non-Corinthians as well.

 

[Samie]

So with Robert, it is failure to "believe", and with Samie it is failure to "overcome" that results in an individual being "lost".

Does not failure to believe RESULT FROM resisting the Spirit ??  And does not failure to overcome RESULT FROM resisting the Spirit of Christ ?? 

And resisting the Spirit IS the "unpardonable sin".  Correct ? 

So Christ's death did not/does not cover the "unpardonable sin".  Correct? 

So - according to Robert and Samie, a person IS SAVED until/unless they commit the "unpardonable sin". 

No wonder because what Robert and Samie teach in this regard is what our Master Teacher Himself taught:

Matthew 12:31-32   31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.  32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Fortunately, the blotting out of names of non-overcomers occurs only when a person dies. There's hope while alive.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Samie

[Samie]

2 Cor 5 is corporate, but Rom 6:14 is not, which is clear by looking at the context:

​So, to only whom does Rom 6:14 apply?

[Samie]

For me, Rom 6:14 applies to all whose names were written in the book of life, and that includes Adam and Eve and all their descendants.

[LifeHiscost]

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace....Romans 6

I'm satisfied that text is fulfilled the moment one repents, sin no longer controlling me. The reason I am no longer under the penalty of the law is because of that repentance, a gift of the Savior Himself.

31"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."....Acts 5

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

Our problem is not that God will kill us if we don't overcome, but that sin will kill us if we don't overcome (which can only happen by our being healed).

​Overcome what?  The flesh and its love of self (i.e., bent-to-self).  Agape, says Paul, "is not self-seeking". 

If we must be as perfect as God is perfect then why the gospel?  Why were we delivered from under law???

[LifeHiscost]

​But LHC, Acts 5:32 is at odds with many of the posts here. It appears Bible texts running  contrary to one's personal doctrine have no standing. Obedience is legalism in theirupside down gospel.

​I see what you are saying, although I don't spend time following the threads, especially if they're to long. Acts 5 explains it well enough for me.

31"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, Whom God has given to those who obey Him."....Acts 5

Since it is the Holy Spirit Who guides us into all Truth, if anyone is offbase at this point of time, including myself, God will ensure one way or another that my (our) mind is changed before He comes in the clouds. 

…16So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. 18"He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.…John 7

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

    ...

These erroneous ideas of the separation of "faith and works" and the "gospel and the law"  are prominent in Robert and Samie's posts.                                                                                                      

​Are you reading my posts? If Yes, where in my posts did you find such prominence, brother? If you can point out NONE, then, let's just consider the case closed. I won't force you into a corner.

[Samie]

31"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, Whom God has given to those who obey Him."....Acts 5

​ But LHC, Acts 5:32 is at odds with many of the posts here. It appears Bible texts running  contrary to one's personal doctrine have no standing. Obedience is legalism in theirupside down gospel.

NKJ Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. 

The Israelites were disobedient, and so using Acts 5:32, the Holy Spirit was not given to them?

NKJ Isaiah 63:11   Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people, saying: "Where is He who brought them up out of the sea With the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them?

As shown in many of my posts, since we all were written in the book of life, we all were given the Holy Spirit, because we all are members of the family of God, unless one is blotted out at death for not overcoming evil with good while alive.

Ohhh, until when can we shy away from the holier-than-thou attitude - "ONLY we who are obedient have the Holy Spirit".

[Samie]

​

[8thdaypriest]

​What thought do these two statements bring to your mind?

…8"According to what I have seen, those who plow iniquity And those who sow trouble harvest it. 9"By the breath of God they perish, And by the blast of His anger they come to an end....Job 4

…2"But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.... Malachi 4

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

​We can discuss the "lake of fire" in another thread.  I want to respect Robert's thread, to discuss only WHEN human beings were/or  are justified. 

[8thdaypriest]

Born with our names in the book of life, we are heaven-bound, unless names are blotted out at death for not overcoming evil with good while alive.

​Sameie,

How must sin must one "overcome" to have his/her name retained in the book of life?  Are you saying that we must overcome ALL SIN in our lives, or our names will be "blotted out"?  Are you talking perfection here??

[8thdaypriest]

Being written in the book of life implies one is attached to the body of Christ, member of the family of God Who through Christ attached us to the body of His Son on the cross (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died likewise (2 Cor 5:14,15; Heb 2:9), all our sins were forgiven (Col 2:13), and we all were reconciled to God (Rom 5:10). The sins we now commit , having been forgiven on the cross, are not counted against us anymore (2 Cor 5:18,19). In fact, God remembers our sins no more (Heb 10:17). The non-imputation of sins currently committed is Christ's act of continually justifying us because He was resurrected for our justification (Rom 4:25). This is why sin cannot have dominion over us anymore (Rom 6:14).

But the act of sinning is proof that one has not yet overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

​I spent some time this morning, reading through Colossians and Ephesians. 

CONCERNING "THE BODY" OF CHRIST:

Colossians 1:18 "He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything." (NRS)

Colossians 1:24 "I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church."

Ephesians 1:22  "And He [God the Father] put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, (NAU)

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. (NIV)

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, (NRS)

Ephesians 5:30 & 32 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. ...  This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (NKJ)

Paul does not say that Christ "gave himself up for" the whole world.  It says he "gave himself up for her" - meaning His bride - His church. 

Jesus is NOT the savior of the WHOLE WORLD.    He is NOT going to "save" the whole world.  He will SAVE "His church" - His bride - His body - all of those who will become part of His bride through faith.   

ONLY those who believe are "betrothed"  to Christ (2 Cor. 11:2).  Only those who continue in faith, will actually become His "wife" at the "marriage supper of the Lamb".  

I don't understand WHY you keep saying that every human being was corporately "in Christ", when He died.  From what I found,  "all"  in 2 Cor 5:14 refers to "all of those who would believe". 

 CONCERNING JUST WHO DIED WITH CHRIST: 

Colossians 2:20  "Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations-- (NKJ)

Colossians 3:3  "For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. (NKJ)

WHO is the "you" in the last two verses here? 

Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, . . .; (NKJ)

The "you" is the church (the believers) at Colose.  The letter was address to THEM - not to mankind in general. 

Ephesians 2:11 "Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (NAU)  

So - that WAS the condition of the Ephesian believers BEFORE they believed on the Lord Jesus.  AFTER they believed, they BECAME "partakers of the covenants of promise", and "citizens of the commonwealth of Israel".  

Colossians 4:12  Paul discribes "Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ."    So the "you" would be the servants of Christ. 

Colossians 4:5 Paul wrote, "Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside".   The believers at Colose would be "inside" (in Christ), and non-believers would be "outside". 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, I wrote this: "2 Cor 5 is corporate, but Rom 6:14 is not, which is clear by looking at the context:"

 

  Quote

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

You ask the question to whom Roman 6:14 applies.  The answer is in what I quoted, which is why I quoted it.  It applies to those who yield themselves to God, etc., just as it says in the verse, which is a part of the sentence which Romans 6:14 is completing.

[8thdaypriest]

Were they the only ones Paul really addressed? Let's consider his opening greetings:

NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:1-2   1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,  2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours

Looks like his greetings include non-Corinthians as well.

 

​Yes - non Corinthian BELIEVERS.  Those are the one who "call on the name of Jesus". 

[8thdaypriest]

​Scriptures answer:

Deuteronomy 1:39   Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

I think the word "many" can mean "all", but the word "all" cannot simply mean "many", I guess. When the teacher says "All in row 3, stand up", I guess every one in row 3 stands up, not anyone exempted. Same thing when our Master Teacher says "All in the graves, rise".

​Samie,

You are taking words directed at the 12 Tribes, who had just rebelled against Yahweh, and have used them to refer to the children of ALL MANKIND.  I think that is a big stretch.  The LORD was telling the adult members of the 12 Tribes (those over 20) that THEIR "little ones" would enter the land promised to Abraham. 

But let's assume for a moment that you are correct in your application.  Let's follow the application a little further.  Those "little ones" grew up during the wilderness wandering, crossed the Jordan with Joshua, and THEN REBELLED and REBELLED and REBELLED until the Lord "divorced" the 10 Northern tribes, and allow the Southern tribes to be taken to Babylon, and then later to be destroyed by the Romans.  Doesn't seem like those "little ones" went to an eternity of "rest" in the "promised land" - does it? 

It does however fit a little better with my belief that all "little ones" will be resurrected into the Kingdom of Messiah on the earth, to grow up - and then choose whom they will serve.  Those who REBEL against Christ will die at Gog/Magog. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[joeb]

8thday,

I don't understand WHY you keep saying that every human being was corporately "in Christ", when He died.  From what I found,  "all"  in 2 Cor 5:14 refers to "all of those who would believe". 

This is why a true understanding of ga'al is important.  It shows such claims are false.   Christ's atonement, His payment of our ransom, was a transaction, a payment of the debt we owe but could not pay. (Look up   He paid it alone.  He paid it for He was the only one who was God, man, and the only one who perfectly kept God's law.   There is no room ga'al for this metaphysical nonense being put forth by Robert and Samie. 

We human beings sold ourselves.  Paul said he was carnal, sold under sin.  In the OT Isaiah says the Jews sold themselves.

Isaiah 50:1 Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Isaiah 52:3  For thus saith the Lord, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

I don't know why when I copy out of my e-Bible the text always comes out bolded.  Drives me crazy. 

There are also other Bible texts that say individuals sold themselves to do evil.  All of this points to the fact that Christ's sacrifice was a transaction to pay a debt, to buy us out of our slavery as this was the entire point of the law of inheritance(ga'al).  This is the entire legal justification for God being able to justify those who believe.  Those who believe, repent, and obey are justified and become, once more, citizens of heaven and once this is all over will recieve their inheritance--the new earth, dominion over it, and even now, dominion over themselves, which human beings do not have who have not  accepted Christ. 

[8thdaypriest]

I doubt Robert or Samie will ever change their teaching, but their arguments really did spur me to deeper study, and I am strengthened in my belief that only those who BELIEVE (come to faith) are justified.  Only those who believe are "the church" and are regarded by the Father as "in Him" on that cross. 

[joeb]

I doubt Robert or Samie will ever change their teaching, but their arguments really did spur me to deeper study, and I am strengthened in my belief that only those who BELIEVE (come to faith) are justified.  Only those who believe are "the church" and are regarded by the Father as "in Him" on that cross. 

​The "in Christ" motif is what spurred me to study ga'al.  I spent months studying it.  It wasn't an on and off study either.  I spent an average of 4-5 hours a day on it.  It is so prevalent in the Bible and the SOP that people read right over it and never really see it.  But, it's one of those studies that must be done in depth.  It requires the usage of tools like Strong's so you can go back and see what Isrealites and disciples and apostles understood by their reading of the OT.  Once you do the study you see just how spurious the "in Christ" motif really is. 

[Samie]

Hi pnattmbtc;

I am transferring our discussion from the thread "Made Him to be sin" to this thread to honor that thread starter's request.

Why do I see a legal aspect in this statement of Waggoner?

"If anyone has not this blessing, it is because he has not recognized the gift, or has deliberately thrown it away."

From my viewpoint, there is legality when, prior to reaping the benefit, a requirement had to be fulfilled first by the supposed beneficiary.

In the issue at hand, the benefit is to be written in the book of life. My position is already clear: Contingent upon Christ's life, death and resurrection, names of Adam & Eve and all their descendants were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. No requirement to fulfill. All by God's grace through Christ. This "no-requirement-phase" applies ONLY to the past tense of salvation. And there are two tenses more - the present and the future tenses. Let's discuss the past tense of salvation a bit further.

In the past tense of salvation, the issue is how to have one's name get written in the book of life. And God provided the solution. Not an iota of human participation. All God's work FOR man. We were born with our names in the book of life. Being written in the book of life means one is attached to the body of Christ and member of the family of God. Being attached to the Body of Christ means one is EMPOWERED to do what the Head wants His Body part to do. Being a member of the family of God means one is a citizen of the heavenly kingdom.

The past tense of salvation for Adam & Eve and all their descendants was put in place before the foundation of the world and ratified by the life, death and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Foreshadowed by the death of that animal in Eden that same day Adam & Eve fell into sin, and with subsequent sacrifices for sin in the Old Covenant, His death on the cross forgave and cleansed us from all sin, sanctified and reconciled us to God. All these benefits are ours, sans human participation. This is where the dividing line lies between the gospel popularly being preached and what this layman calls the pure gospel.

I see Waggoner's statement as placing a requirement, albeit how small. This makes his statement at par with the gospel popularly being preached: That God's grace is OFFERED to humans; they must ACCEPT first, before reaping the benefit. Waggoner requires man's recognition of the gift; the popular gospel requires man's acceptance of the gift.

From this layman's viewpoint, human participation comes in the present tense of salvation.  To be continued next post . . .

[Samie]

Whereas the past tense of salvation EMPOWERED man to be able to do what the Head wants His Body part to do, the present tense of salvation GIVES the part of the Body the opportunity to exercise the power to do the bidding of the Head. The past tense of Salvation is the EMPOWERING phase; the present tense of Salvation is the DOING phase; the future tense of Salvation is the REWARDING phase.

The present tense of salvation for an individual starts at conception and birth and ends at the person's death or at the Second Coming, whichever comes first. At the Second Coming, the future tense of salvation commences.

With his name already written in the book of life, a person is born heaven-bound, for ONLY those whose names are in the book of life will be allowed to enter the heavenly portals. Note that our being heaven-bound entailed NOTHING from us. That benefit is ours PASSIVELY. We were born with it. Just like Princess Charlotte. She was born a princess, whether she likes it or not, whether she acknowledges it or not, whether she knows it or not; she is a princess. So with us - we were born children of the King.

This is another thickener to the dividing line that divides the popular gospel from what this layman calls the pure gospel - the gospel Jesus wanted preached to all the world before He comes again. Whereas the popular gospel requires people to first believe to become children of the King; the pure gospel tells people they are children of the King.

To be continued next post . . .

[Samie]

Hypothetically and for the sake of illustration and God forbid that the Princess die before the age of reason, but granting that it happens, then Charlotte would have died a Princess, assured of a royal burial and a place in the annals of the kingdom. So with infants dying before the age of accountability. Born children of the King, they die children of the King, assured of a place in the new earth as God Himself showed Isaiah in vision.

But given enough time, Princess Charlotte won't remain an infant forever. I guess her father will do everything to ensure her growing up a princess. But coming to a proper age, she can choose what to do herself. She can either choose to abide by the palace guidelines or bend and disobey them. So with us in this present tense of Salvation.

With His guidelines God dynamically writes in a person's heart and mind for the lifestyle best suited for a specific individual as a Body part of His Son, the Holy Spirit guides an individual throughout his lifetime. An individual may either choose to follow the bidding of the Spirit or not. The individual who decides to overcome evil with good is an overcomer, otherwise he is not. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

What about sins currently committed? Having been forgiven on the cross, these sins are not imputed against us by Christ Who was resurrected for our justification, our High Priest in the heavenly Sanctuary. Sin cannot have dominion over us anymore. In fact, God remembers our sins NO MORE!

Another thickener added to the dividing line: Whereas the popular gospel teaches people to ask forgiveness to be forgiven, the pure gospel tells people they had been forgiven.  But the act of sinning is proof that the sinning individual has not yet overcome the evil of sinning. But the fight is not over yet. While alive there's hope. He can still become an overcomer. EM[POWERED in the past tense of Salvation by being attached to Him Who is our Strength for overcoming evil with good, it is NOT a question of inability but one of refusal to overcome.

And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life!  To be continued next post . . .