Are we born justified?

[Robert]

 Man is allotted a part in this great struggle for everlasting life; he must respond to the working of the Holy Spirit. It will require a struggle to break through the powers of darkness, but the Spirit that works in him can and will accomplish this. But man is no passive instrument to be saved in indolence. He is called upon to strain every muscle in the struggle for immortality, yet it is God that supplies the efficiency. OHC 91.4

 

 

 

​Oh, so what Christ did in our humanity is meaningless?  The gospel is good advice, but ultimately it doesn't save.  We must do our "allotted...part".  Like the old hymn goes, "that will be glory for me." 

No, that's not the gospel. That's subtle legalism. 

The gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus our corporate representative. In Him we are complete.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, you cut out my question again, and didn't address it.  For your convenience I'm reposting it.  The question has to do with character, not bent to sin.

"Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?"

Do you disagree with the points being made here?  Do you think it's possible that those who have cnotroled by Satan can enter heaven and be happy there?  Or do you think children before the age of accountability cannot be controlled by Satan?  Or that they don't have characters?  How do you get around the problem that these children have made thousands, if not millions of decisions, directed against the principles of heaven, and have formed a character which contradicts the principles of heaven.  How can they be happy in heaven?  Will God change their character?

[LifeHiscost]

Robert, you cut out my question again, and didn't address it.  For your convenience I'm reposting it.  The question has to do with character, not bent to sin.

"Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?"

Do you disagree with the points being made here?  Do you think it's possible that those who have cnotroled by Satan can enter heaven and be happy there?  Or do you think children before the age of accountability cannot be controlled by Satan?  Or that they don't have characters?  How do you get around the problem that these children have made thousands, if not millions of decisions, directed against the principles of heaven, and have formed a character which contradicts the principles of heaven.  How can they be happy in heaven?  Will God change their character?

​

Makes all kind of sense to me. The fact that believers depend upon the indwelling Christ is the key to fulfillment of the above. Below is an example of the reality of that. It's a somewhat lengthy read but the end is well worth it.

http://tinyurl.com/pm7g56t

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

Sin will not be taken to heaven. No indwelling bent will be in the resurrected for they will be changed.

​So Roberts believes that when we are "changed" or resurrected with the new "spiritual body", our minds will be suddenly changed , swept clean of every thought that is our of harmony with Christ.  We will not longer be ABLE to sin - even by a thought. 

I don't agree!!!!

What do you think the 1000 years is FOR, except for our further healing.  We begin a process here, in this life.  We will continue that process in the "Father's House" until finally we will be READY to govern in the name of Christ, those who are raised at the 8th day.   If the healing is not a process, but is something instantaneous, then WHY not render each believer perfectly healing in mind, the moment that he/she believes.  Or - at least have rendered them perfectly healed (corporately), at the moment Christ died. 

The 1000 years tell me that it is a PROCESS, which takes time to complete.  It is NOT instant mind manipulation. 

If our God will manipulate minds to make them instantly perfect and free of every tendency to sin, even in thought - THEN - He should just have done that in the first place, and skipped this awful, painful mess!!

After the earth is devastated and is rendered lifeless by the last plagues, Jesus COULD restore it immediately (within 6 days) to an Eden like state.  So WHY is it LEFT lifeless for 1000 years? 

REASON:  That is how long it will take to heal, educate, and train the priesthood. 

You THINK you will instantly FEEL love for someone who harmed you terribly in this life, even if he/she repented and came to the LORD later in his/her life.  I don't think so.......  It will take time to heal all of those old wounds. 

[Robert]

Robert, you cut out my question again, and didn't address it.  For your convenience I'm reposting it.  The question has to do with character, not bent to sin.

"Those who have chosen Satan as their leader...."

​The newborn has not chosen Satan....

[Robert]

​So Roberts believes that when we are "changed" or resurrected with the new "spiritual body", our minds will be suddenly changed , swept clean of every thought that is our of harmony with Christ.  We will not longer be ABLE to sin - even by a thought. 

I don't agree!!!!

What do you think the 1000 years is FOR, except for our further healing. 

​1 John 3:2 My dear friends, we are now God's children, but it is not yet clear what we shall become. But we know that when Christ appears (i.e., at the 2nd coming), we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he really is.

Clearly at the resurrection, or those changed in the blink of eye, will be like Christ.  That means they will be as righteous as Christ is righteous.  

So no healing....We are healed in Christ.  We receive this "new creation" at the 2nd coming.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

REASON:  That is how long it will take to heal, educate, and train the priesthood. 

You THINK you will instantly FEEL love for someone who harmed you terribly in this life, even if he/she repented and came to the LORD later in his/her life.  I don't think so.......  It will take time to heal all of those old wounds. 

​Very legalistic....The gospel states that "in Christ" we stand perfect, now and in judgment.  We will have nothing but agape....No love of self.  Sin remains in the grave.  The old is gone, the new is here to stay.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Robert

[joeb]

​But it's not the gospel.  If you make it the gospel then it's legalism. The gospel is how Christ saved us in Himself plus nothing....

​No, Robert, that is not legalism.  Legalism is thinking you can change your heart by changing your behavior.  It's making the mistake of thinking that you can overcome sin.  That you can determine how to attack it, what behavior of your to change first.  That's selfishness for it is self-centered.  Real sanctification is asking God to change us and trusting Him to change our heart so that our sins disappear through our faith in His power to change us.  That is Christ plus nothing. 

Your thinking is flawed in that you see sanctification as "you plus God".  Bible sanctification is God alone.  We are sinful.  Our hearts are sinful so we can do nothing to expel sin from our hearts.  Your view of sanctification is like saying you can kick you out of yourself.  It's impossible.  It cannot work.  You can't get away from yourself.  Only an outside power can remove sin from you, therefore sanctification is by faith, and nothing but faith.  You don't believe that? 

Jeremiah 5:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Here is God telling us that we can do nothing to change our attitudes towards sin.  However, the Bible doesn't leave us their.  It says the following:

Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
  26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

In the preceding verses Jesus tells his disciples how impossible it is for a rich man to get into heaven.  They realize it is impossible and ask who then can be saved.  What is Jesus' answer?  It's impossible for men, but God can do the impossible and get that rich man through the eye of needle.  Jesus is referring to God changing hearts, the very thing that is impossible for us.   He's telling us that changing hearts is God's work, and His alone.

[Robert]

 

​No, Robert, that is not legalism.  Legalism is thinking you can change your heart by changing your behavior.  It's making the mistake of thinking that you can overcome sin.  That you can determine how to attack it, what behavior of your to change first.  That's selfishness for it is self-centered.  Real sanctification is asking God to change us and trusting Him to change our heart so that our sins disappear through our faith in His power to change us.  That is Christ plus nothing. 

Your thinking is flawed in that you see sanctification as "you plus God".  Bible sanctification is God alone.  We are sinful.  Our hearts are sinful so we can do nothing to expel sin from our hearts.  Your view of sanctification is like saying you can kick you out of yourself.  It's impossible.  It cannot work.  You can't get away from yourself.  Only an outside power can remove sin from you, therefore sanctification is by faith, and nothing but faith.  You don't believe that? 

 

True sanctification is the result of resting in the finished work of Christ.  If you aren't resting in Him, i.e., His finished work of redemption, you are working.  

Your salvation occurred over 2000 years ago. You are complete in Christ.  Do you believe this?

Edited May 14, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

​In the preceding verses Jesus tells his disciples how impossible it is for a rich man to get into heaven.  They realize it is impossible and ask who then can be saved.  What is Jesus' answer?  It's impossible for men, but God can do the impossible and get that rich man through the eye of needle.  Jesus is referring to God changing hearts, the very thing that is impossible for us.   He's telling us that changing hearts is God's work, and His alone.

​No, Jesus is referring to the gospel.  The gospel is not where Christ changes your heart, the gospel is the fact that "in Christ" you have assurance of salvation.  Only then can you grow in grace.....If you wish, start another thread on "the rich young ruler".  It's one of my favorites. 

[joeb]

True sanctification is the result of resting in the finished work of Christ.  If you aren't resting in Him, i.e., His finished work of redemption, you are working.  

Your salvation occurred over 2000 years ago. You are complete in Christ.  Do you believe this?

​Robert,

Which is more important, getting saved, or staying saved?

[pnattmbtc]

​The newborn has not chosen Satan....​

We're on topic here.  Earlier in the thread I clarified with you that your view includes until the age of accountability, and you agreed.  This is the fourth time I'm trying to ask the same question, which is pointing out what I view as a weakness in your position.  I actually pointed out two weaknesses, but have been focusing on this one.  By the way, the same question I've been asking four times also applies to infants, although this is a little more difficult to see, so I'm asking in regards to young children, just before the age of accountability.  Your position is suggesting that the care of the parents plays no role whatsoever in the salvation of a young child.  It also leaves unanswered how God will take young children to heaven who have developed ungodly characters.

[Robert]

​Robert,

Which is more important, getting saved, or staying saved?

​I was saved before I was born.  That's the gospel.  I was saved from the 2nd death, the curse of the law.  If I was saved when I accepted Christ as my corporate head (the last Adam) then Christ must die again.  This is the Roman idea of salvation.

When I reached the age of accountability (only God knows that age) I had to make a decision.  If I rejected Christ I would be under law.  If I accepted Him I would be delivered from under the law.

I chose the latter.  Now, if my faith in Him remains I will receive my new life currently residing in Him.  While I'm resting in Him He works in me, not to save me, but so that I can experience what is already true of my corporate life in Him.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

.  Your position is suggesting that the care of the parents plays no role whatsoever in the salvation of a young child.  It also leaves unanswered how God will take young children to heaven who have developed ungodly characters.

​No, bringing up a child is important, but until that child reaches....you know the rest.  

It's just that simple.  "Where there is no law neither is there any transgression".  A child must understand volition.  Trying explaining that to a three year old.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

​No, bringing up a child is important, but until that child reaches....you know the rest.  

It's just that simple.  "Where there is no law neither is there any transgression".  A child must understand volition.  Trying explaining that to a three year old.

​Is your idea that a child doesn't have a character?  Or that the character will be instantly changed, regardless of what it is?  You still haven't addressed the question, and I'd like to know what your thought is.  Do you think the characters of the righteous will be changed upon resurrection?

Edited May 15, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

Is this the Gospel? 

"Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

 

Or this?

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."

[8thdaypriest]

​Is your idea that a child doesn't have a character?  Or that the character will be instantly changed, regardless of what it is?  You still haven't addressed the question, and I'd like to know what your thought is.  Do you think the characters of the righteous will be changed upon resurrection?

​From what he has posted, I would say - yes.  Robert believes that all of those resurrected to be with Christ, will be instantly scrubbed, healed, changed, - so that no thought, or tendency to sin will remain in their minds, or in their persons.  They will instantly be just as righteous as Christ - not because Christ's righteous legal standing will be applied to our "record" - but because we will actually BE rendered completely free of any sinful (self-serving) tendency. 

Grief!  Then why not render me free of any sinful tendency when I first believe.  Wow!  Now that would be a witness!! 

THAT - is mind manipulation.  I do NOT believe that our God will do THAT.  He "changes" our behaviors by changing our thinking, through teaching us that His way is better than our old way.  

I will agree that our hungry, tired, achy physical bodies are a source of constant irritation and stress, that makes bad behavior more likely,  so when I get a new body, I won't have THAT to contend with.  Yipeeeee!

I believe our physical bodies will be "changed" instantly.  We will have immortal "spiritual bodies" just like angels have.  But those bodies (in and of themselves) do not automatically render someone "sinless".  Angels with THOSE "spiritual bodies" started the rebellion in the first place!!  Those "spiritual bodies" are the REASON why they must be destroyed in a special "lake of fire".  They can't DIE any other way. 

I don't believe our MINDS will be changed instantly.  Notice I did not say "our brains".  The brain is the physical part - like a computer.  Our mind is the sum of what's ON the computer.  I don't believe that God will go through our personal computers - at the resurrection - and erase part of the information. 

[8thdaypriest]

Romans 5:2 [Jesus Christ] through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (NKJ)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you [the people to whom the letter was addressed] have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:8 NKJ)

BY GRACE - THROUGH FAITH

Grace is God's part.  It has been there since Eve ate the fruit - since the life of God's Son was pledged. 

Grace = unmerited favor, a probationary time period before everlasting death would consume those who refuse,  all the blessings and power that come from HIM, the presence of His spirit. 

Faith = describes OUR response to that grace

Robert concentrates ONLY on "grace " and seems to say that a human beings plays no part in responding with belief (faith). 

If God automatically infused "belief" and "faith" into the mind of every human being, then EVERYONE would be saved. 

[8thdaypriest]

It always comes down to the children, and to those who lived and died in ignorance (whatever the reason for that ignorance). 

I AGREE with Robert, that God "covers" all sins of ignorance.  THAT was demonstrated by "the daily", which was offered for "sins of ignorance".  It was understood - even back then - that this sacrifice also "covered" those of "the nations" who were sinning against Yahweh, in ignorance. 

Paul also wrote about that. "At the times of ignorance God winked". 

Where I do NOT agree with Robert, or with traditional Adventism, is with their teaching that children who die (obviously in ignorance) will get a FREE PASS to eternal life in the Kingdom of God.  Slaves who die in ignorance, or pagans unreached by the missionaries, will apparently be LEFT "like the beasts" - not receiving eternal life, but not going to the lake of fire either.  (Why not children?)

I believe that "sins of ignorance" are "covered" ONLY FOR A TIME, until those persons can HEAR the truth, and are able to RESPOND, either with faith or with rebellion.  THAT will require, they be resurrected, and be given time to hear and respond.   THAT is why I believe that "the rest of the dead" are NOT the condemned from the first 6000 years.  

The "rest of the dead" will be all of those who died in ignorance of God and of His Law (whatever the reason for that ignorance). 

Someone is going to quote Acts 17:30, or Romans 1:20 to say that the truths of Yahweh and His law, were revealed through created things, so every person is "without excuse".   BUT that would mean there is no such thing as a sin of ignorance.   I believe those verses are speaking of those things which pagans do (or do not do) because of the influence of God's convicting spirit.  Laws against murder, or theft, or false testimony, or wife stealing, (women were possessions, therefore adultery was simply theft of another's wife).  Finer things like "no other god's before Me" or "no images", or Sabbath, or "you shall not covet", or "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"  - those would require more information. 

[pnattmbtc]

It always comes down to the children, and to those who lived and died in ignorance (whatever the reason for that ignorance). 

I AGREE with Robert, that God "covers" all sins of ignorance.  THAT was demonstrated by "the daily", which was offered for "sins of ignorance".  It was understood - even back then - that this sacrifice also "covered" those of "the nations" who were sinning against Yahweh, in ignorance. 

Paul also wrote about that. "At the times of ignorance God winked". 

Where I do NOT agree with Robert, or with traditional Adventism, is with their teaching that children who die (obviously in ignorance) will get a FREE PASS to eternal life in the Kingdom of God.  Slaves who die in ignorance, or pagans unreached by the missionaries, will apparently be LEFT "like the beasts" - not receiving eternal life, but not going to the lake of fire either.  (Why not children?)

I believe that "sins of ignorance" are "covered" ONLY FOR A TIME, until those persons can HEAR the truth, and are able to RESPOND, either with faith or with rebellion.  THAT will require, they be resurrected, and be given time to hear and respond.   THAT is why I believe that "the rest of the dead" are NOT the condemned from the first 6000 years.  

The "rest of the dead" will be all of those who died in ignorance of God and of His Law (whatever the reason for that ignorance). 

Someone is going to quote Acts 17:30, or Romans 1:20 to say that the truths of Yahweh and His law, were revealed through created things, so every person is "without excuse".   BUT that would mean there is no such thing as a sin of ignorance.   I believe those verses are speaking of those things which pagans do (or do not do) because of the influence of God's convicting spirit.  Laws against murder, or theft, or false testimony, or wife stealing, (women were possessions, therefore adultery was simply theft of another's wife).  Finer things like "no other god's before Me" or "no images", or Sabbath, or "you shall not covet", or "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ"  - those would require more information. 

​Why would a sin of ignorance need to be covered?

[pnattmbtc]

8thdaypriest, I liked your last posts.  I wanted to make that clear.  I'll be asking questions about certain areas of the posts, largely as a help to myself as I think through things (and maybe helpful for you too).  In this sort of format, an internet discussion, things tend to die when you get agreement.  It's when you have disagreement that you get discussions.  From what I'm reading, my sense is we're seeing things similarly at a basic level.  For example, if we ask the question, what's the basic problem God is trying to solve, how would you answer that?  I'm betting we would have a similar answer.

[8thdaypriest]

What is the essential “problem” that our God our Father is trying to deal with?  

Short answer: lies about Himself
He wants to be KNOWN for who He truly is.
We must come to KNOW HIM for who He truly is - or the free will He has given us (to love Him and others), will be turned into the means of our self-destruction. 

So the second "problem" - is our FREE WILL.  How can He get us to CHOOSE Him, without violating our FREE WILL??????

Satan deceived Eve into distrusting God.  His deception only worked, because Eve did not KNOW God well enough at that point.  Which is WHY God did not destroy her and Adam.  He gave them TIME to learn more of Him, and also to learn more (mostly through experience) about the Deceiver.

If you’ve never seen the old movie, “The Miracle Worker” - see it !!  It’s about Helen Keller and her teacher, Anne Sullivan.  It's about the first few weeks during which Miss Sullivan was trying to “reach” Helen - a girl who was blind and deaf.  Helen fought and fought and fought against her teacher, not understanding that her teacher was trying to help - not understanding what her teacher was trying to “say” with all of the hand signs.   Finally she “got it” through one word remembered from her babyhood.  She connected the hand sign with the word, and the “light came on” in her world.  She could communicate.  And even better, others could communicate with her.  That process took TIME. 

Well - our God is trying to communicate with us.  But most are like Helen Keller - just flailing their hands "in the dark".  

Some actually have "seen" the love of God, but have CHOSEN not to surrender to that love.  That's their CHOICE. 

God knew from the beginning, how long the process would take, until every person had made an informed CHOICE.  

[LifeHiscost]

What is the essential “problem” that our God our Father is trying to deal with?  

Short answer: lies about Himself
He wants to be KNOWN for who He truly is.
We must come to KNOW HIM for who He truly is - or the free will He has given us (to love Him and others), will be turned into the means of our self-destruction. 

So the second "problem" - is our FREE WILL.  How can He get us to CHOOSE Him, without violating our FREE WILL??????

Satan deceived Eve into distrusting God.  His deception only worked, because Eve did not KNOW God well enough at that point.  Which is WHY God did not destroy her and Adam.  He gave them TIME to learn more of Him, and also to learn more (mostly through experience) about the Deceiver.

If you’ve never seen the old movie, “The Miracle Worker” - see it !!  It’s about Helen Keller and her teacher, Anne Sullivan.  It's about the first few weeks during which Miss Sullivan was trying to “reach” Helen - a girl who was blind and deaf.  Helen fought and fought and fought against her teacher, not understanding that her teacher was trying to help - not understanding what her teacher was trying to “say” with all of the hand signs.   Finally she “got it” through one word remembered from her babyhood.  She connected the hand sign with the word, and the “light came on” in her world.  She could communicate.  And even better, others could communicate with her.  That process took TIME. 

Well - our God is trying to communicate with us.  But most are like Helen Keller - just flailing their hands "in the dark".  

Some actually have "seen" the love of God, but have CHOSEN not to surrender to that love.  That's their CHOICE. 

God knew from the beginning, how long the process would take, until every person had made an informed CHOICE.  

​

Other than to suggest the greater problem is sin. Then again, disbelief (unbelief) in the Word was deceptive to Eve, and that is probably the story of sin, for I cannot see anyone turning away from Jesus who knows Him.

…22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'...Matthew 7  Emphasis theirs'  LHC

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

​Why would a sin of ignorance need to be covered?

​When the Bible says "covered" - I believe it means that the record of that sin is "covered" so that God does not "see" it.  It is concealed.  God therefore, will not punish THAT sin. 

The blood is what covers. 

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered" (NKJ).

For known sin, a "sin offering" was required.  That is HOW one received the "covering".   Even if the act was a sin of ignorance, "when the thing becomes known to him" (when he comes to realize that act was a sin), then he was to bring a "sin offering".  Jesus IS our sin offering. 

Sins of ignorance, received the "covering" thru the daily sacrifice.  It was just another demonstration of the fact that our God is just.  He will not punish you for things you did not, and could not have known were wrong.  Jesus death - His blood, provides that "covering". 

Because the daily sacrifice "covered" all sins of ignorance DOES NOT translate into, "Everyone who sinned only in ignorance will be given eternal life - eg little children." 

Salvation is NOT JUST ABOUT sins committed vs sins covered.  [That is the flaw in Robert's position.]

 

Jesus can "cover" a sin in his record book, but that does not mean our heart has been "healed". 

In order to "be saved", one must:

1.  come to believe that our God is worthy of worship -that He IS love, and can be trusted.   This was the "message" of the cross. 

Until we come to "see" that our God is loving, and can be trusted, all those rules are just RULES we follow trying not to get shut out of "Heaven".  Every sin is therefore a sin of ignorance.  Because we are ignorant of HIM.  THAT is why they can be covered.  

2.  actually worship Him and "serve" Him with love in return.   (In other words, surrender to His spirit.) 

Those who HAVE SEEN the love of God, yet refuse to surrender to His spirit, will be LOST.   Even the demons "believe", but have refused to surrender.  

Sometimes we RESENT the RULES, even after we "see" that they make sense, because we don't FEEL like doing those things, or they are inconvenient for us. (Resting on the Sabbath, within our present Sunday society comes to mind.)  People who feel this way, are hanging between life and death. 

[Robert]

Is this the Gospel? 

"Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

 

Or this?

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."

​No....