Are we born justified?

[pnattmbtc]

Re: citizens

I think Robert has raised a good question.  It must be. It has generated a long thread.  It is obvious that Jesus died for ALL MANKIND.  So He BOUGHT all mankind.  I think that is speaking of the "dominion" of earth. 

But just because Jesus paid the price, and recovered "the land" (earth) does NOT mean every person living on the earth has become a member of His own family.  Just as Abraham was promised the land, but there were many Canaanites living on the land.  They were NOT citizens of Israel.  All Canaanites were to be killed or banished. 

There are different ways of communicating similar (or the same) ideas.  For example, here what speaks to me is the idea that "to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life", or "never one, saint or sinner, partakes of his daily bread buy he is nourished by the body and blood of Christ."

In terms of Romans 5, I think of the theme of much more abounding grace, and the idea that "God has encircled the whole world with an atmosphere of grace as real as the air which circulates around the globe.  All who choose to breathe this life-giving atmosphere will live and grow up to the stature of men and women in Christ Jesus."  And, from another author, "believing is to grace as breathing is to air."  So the same grace which gives us life, which is of infinite value, being provided through the life of Christ, will give us eternal life, if we breathe it in, so to speak.

I also like this thought, "The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul..."

This brings out that to be lost, there is a work of resistance which is necessary on the part of the unbeliever.

[Robert]

​Let me guess, Robert, you can live a life of total rebellion towards God after you say the magic words and you'll go to heaven. 

​No, there's only one way into heaven according to works - perfect obedience to the spirit of God's law.

[LifeHiscost]

Better to be link little children..  then some of us..

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/18-3.htm

​

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

People are born with their names in the book of life, otherwise God would not have shown Isaiah a vision of the new earth with little children, suckling child and weaned child. Since all people whose names are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, the little children in the new earth have their names in the book of life. And we all were little children before.

[8thdaypriest]

People are born with their names in the book of life, otherwise God would not have shown Isaiah a vision of the new earth with little children, suckling child and weaned child. Since all people whose names are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, the little children in the new earth have their names in the book of life. And we all were little children before.

​As most here know, I believe that "the rest of the dead" will be those who lived and died in ignorance - including all young children.  They are not guilty before the Law, because they died without the Law.  But they have never "believed", and belief (faith) is the ONE REQUIREMENT for one to receive immortality.  One's name is written into the Book of Life, the moment one believes. His name may be "blotted out" later if he does not "walk by faith".  

Isaiah was shown the Kingdom of Messiah on the earth during "The 8th Day" - the 8th millennium.  The "rest of the dead" will be raised, and then educated in the ways of God by the priests of God and of Christ (those made immortal at the SC).  Those who believe in God through Christ, who CHOOSE to serve God, will be given immortality, and those who refuse will come up as the army of Gog/Magog. 

Only AFTER the Gog/Magog battle, will the Holy City New Jerusalem descend to the earth. 

Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

Robert's question was, "Are we born justified?"  His answer is yes.  My answer is no.

"Justified" means "declared to be righteous".  The word "justified" has to do with legal standing.  It means "right-ness before the LAW."  In other words, our standing before the LAW.  The LAW is the standard, to which our behaviors are compared. 

We use the words "imputed righteousness" and "imparted righteousness", to explain what Christ has done FOR US, and what Christ does IN US.   Both imparted and imputed righteousness are Christ's gift to us, and we can take no credit for either.   The gift is called "grace".  

I've been doing a slow read thru the letters of Paul, trying to get a deeper insight into just HOW we are justified (declared righteous before the Law). 

What I keep finding, over and over and over and over, is that BELIEF is the necessary response - on our part, before one is regarded as "justified" by God. 

 

"Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" ( Rom 4:3, Gal. 3:6). In other words, Abraham was accounted as just - as righteous, WHEN he believed. 

"A man is NOT justified by works of the law, but by FAITH in Jesus Christ" ....  we have BELIEVED in Christ Jesus that we might be JUSTIFIED by FAITH in Christ"   (Gal 2:16-17).

"Faith in" is another word for "belief in". 

Galatians 3:8  "God would justify the nations by faith." 

Galatians 3:22 "But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (NKJ)

Galatians 3:24  "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."(NKJ)

And on and on and on and on

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Robert would say that every human being is "in Christ" until he/she refuses to believe (having heard the gospel). 

He likes to quote 2Cor 5:14.  "If one died for all, then all died." 

But the very next verse, says "therefore - IF anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new."  (2Cor 5:15).  His "old sins" have been covered, and he is filled with the spirit of Christ (imputed and imparted righteousness).

 "And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ." (Rom 8:9 NIV)    That is plain enough.  One receives the indwelling Spirit of Christ WHEN he/she believes. 

The gospel of Christ IS the power of God to salvation FOR everyone who believes (Rom 1:16).

Romans 3:22-22  "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (Rom 3:20 KJV)

Romans 4:24  "It (righteousness) shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our LORD from the dead." 

[8thdaypriest]

Concerning children:

Galatians 4:1 "Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything," (NAU).

Those who live in ignorance of Christ and the gospel (whatever the reason) are regarded by God as children and slaves.  Christ cannot take them directly to heaven at the second coming, but he will resurrect them [as the rest of the dead]  to continue their physical lives, to HEAR the gospel, and then to believe or to refuse.  Those who believe He will save.  Those who resist will be destroyed as the army of Gog/Magog. 

[Robert]

 

​

He likes to quote 2Cor 5:14.  "If one died for all, then all died." 

But the very next verse, says "therefore - IF anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new."  (2Cor 5:15).  His "old sins" have been covered, and he is filled with the spirit of Christ (imputed and imparted righteousness).

 

​What does it mean to be "in Christ"?  Are you the individual in Christ?

 

Edited May 19, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

 

"Justified" means "declared to be righteous".  The word "justified" has to do with legal standing.  It means "right-ness before the LAW."  In other words, our standing before the LAW.

 

Why do you think this?  That is, why do you think "justified" means "declared to be righteous"?  Also why do you think is has to do with legal standing?  And why do you think it means "right-ness before the law"?

Here are some alternatives:
1.To be justified means to be made righteous.
2.It has to do with our relationship with God.
3.It means "being right with God."

Edited May 19, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

It is important to distinguish sincere ignorance from willfull ignorance.

The statement "ignorance of the law is no excuse" is an old legal principle:
"Ignorance of the law excuses no man; not that all men know the law; but because 'tis an excuse every man will plead, and no man can tell how to confute him."  John Selden (1584-1654

But God knows "how to confute him" for He reads  the heart  can know whether one's ignorance is because of unavailability of the truth or whether the ignorance is willful . ...

 

 

 

​What a great post!  Really well written.  And I got to learn a new word ("confute").

It looks to me like you're making the same point I was.  "Sins of ignorance" in your post looks to mean "sins which were committed in ignorance when committed" but not at the time atonement is made (where "atonement" in this context means the believer being set right with God through faith in Christ).

[Samie]

God gave Isaiah a vision of the new earth with little children, suckling child and weaned child (Isa 11:6-9). Since all people whose names are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15), the little children in the new earth have their names in the book of life.

Any objection to the above seem to have no Biblical basis.

[Samie]

Born with our names in the book of life, we are heaven-bound, unless names are blotted out at death for not overcoming evil with good while alive.

[Samie]

Being written in the book of life implies one is attached to the body of Christ, member of the family of God Who through Christ attached us to the body of His Son on the cross (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died likewise (2 Cor 5:14,15; Heb 2:9), all our sins were forgiven (Col 2:13), and we all were reconciled to God (Rom 5:10). The sins we now commit , having been forgiven on the cross, are not counted against us anymore (2 Cor 5:18,19). In fact, God remembers our sins no more (Heb 10:17). The non-imputation of sins currently committed is Christ's act of continually justifying us because He was resurrected for our justification (Rom 4:25). This is why sin cannot have dominion over us anymore (Rom 6:14).

But the act of sinning is proof that one has not yet overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

[pnattmbtc]

God gave Isaiah a vision of the new earth with little children, suckling child and weaned child (Isa 11:6-9). Since all people whose names are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15), the little children in the new earth have their names in the book of life.

Any objection to the above seem to have no Biblical basis.

​One could object to the inference that because Isaiah had a vision of the new earth with little children, this means that *every* child will be in the new earth.

[Samie]

​One could object to the inference that because Isaiah had a vision of the new earth with little children, this means that *every* child will be in the new earth.

​Looks like it because there is no partiality with God. see Rom 2:11; Acts 10:34; Eph 6:9.

And since we all were little children, then like those children in the new earth, we also were born with our names in the book of life.

[8thdaypriest]

​What does it mean to be "in Christ"?  Are you the individual in Christ?

 

​It MEANS that one has believed and therefore received the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ.  And yes, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Father, and is the Christ.  I believe that He died to provide a way to eternal life - for me. 

[8thdaypriest]

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18) This is why the Gospel is such good news!

​The "free gift" is called "grace" .  God made "grace" available TO ALL MEN.   But He also has clearly said that individuals must BELIEVE in order to partake of the gift. 

We are justified by grace [God's gift] , through faith [our response to that gift] (Eph 2:8). 

[joeb]

Regarding sins of ignorance, first of all, it seems from a scriptural standpoint, that the offerings regardings sins of ignorance were really involving sins which were sins of ignorance at the time they were committed, but not at the time the offering was made.

If we think of how forgiveness works, there are two parties concerned.  One party who was sinned against, and the offending party.  From the standpoint of God, one could argue that God has already forgiveen us, and from that position of having forgiven us He gives us His Son, not simply as a sacrifice, but as a gift to the human race for all eternity.

The "whole mission" of Christ, according to the Spirit of Prophecy, was the revelation of God in order to set men right and keep men right with God.  Setting men right with God is justification by faith.  We are justified by faith when the revelation of the Father leads us to repent and we are converted.

How do sins of ignorance fit into this?  If God has already forgiven us, then sins of ignorance can only become an issue when we become aware of what we did.

If God has already forgiven us, why does Scripture say if we confess our sins then He is faithful and just to forgive us, implying that He doesn't forgive us until we ask for it?  Because there are two ways of looking at forgiveness.  One is from the point of view of the party that is wronged.  From that point of view, God has forgiven us, which we can see from 2 Cor. 5 and 1 John 2:2 where God is not imputing sins against us and has provided a propitiation for all sins, acts which predate our repetance or forgiveness.  The other way of looking at forgiveness is from the point of view of the offending party.  The offending party can only experience forgiveness by repentance and contrition, including the act of asking for forgiveness, and the party which was wronged granting the forgiveness.  There is a relationship issue, which involves actions from both parties.  God cannot unilaterlly forgive us in a way that restores our relationship with Him; we need to be involved.  But there is a sense in which He has forgiven us before we ask.

​Well, I'd say all that goes without even saying it.  A sin of ignorance can no longer be unknown if someone is asking forgiveness for it.  If he was still ignorant of it he wouldn't be asking forgiveness for it.   I've never yet seen someone ask for forgiveness for something they didn't know was wrong.  When they learned it was wrong, yes, then they asked for forgiveness, but then they are no longer in a state of ignorance. 

[Samie]

To be "in Christ" is to be "attached to Christ", part of the body of Christ.

The converse is likewise true: To be NOT "in Christ" is to be NOT "attached to Christ", NOT part of the body of Christ.

If one has first believed so that he is "in Christ", then that goes against Christ's own statement: "Apart from me you can do NOTHING" (John 15:5). And "believing" is an act; it is exercising faith.

Born with our names in the book of life, we are born attached to Christ. We believe NOT to be attached, but because we had been.

[LifeHiscost]

​Looks like it because there is no partiality with God. see Rom 2:11; Acts 10:34; Eph 6:9.

And since we all were little children, then like those children in the new earth, we also were born with our names in the book of life.

​

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

The "continual burnt offering" - offered daily morning & evening, "covered" sins committed in ignorance.  It demonstrates that God will not hold against a person, those sins committed in (honest) ignorance.  Those sins are covered by the death of Christ.  

The instruction to Israel, was that WHEN a person REALIZED that something he had done was a sin against Yahweh, THEN he was to bring a sin offering, and another animal for a burnt offering (to renew covenant).  So these instructions apply to every gentile (not just to every Israelite).  WHEN a person comes to realize that actions done in his past, were sins against Yahweh, THEN he is to confess those sins to God (and to the person who was injured if possible).  And he is to ask forgiveness for those actions, in the name of Jesus.  And God who withheld punishment, who extended his probation, will forgive him (present tense). 

My personal take on the "covering" for sins of ignorance, is that it extended probation for those persons who were ignorant of their sins.  Either they did not know that Yahweh existed, or they did not understand His law. 

So - if all sins of ignorance are "covered" by the death of Jesus, how can they ever be counted AGAINST those persons???  They will be counted WHEN those persons come to UNDERSTAND that those actions were sins against Yahweh.  When will those persons (who lived and died in ignorance) come to UNDERSTAND??? 

I believe they will come to UNDERSTAND after they are resurrected as "the rest of the dead", after they are educated in the things of God by the priesthood from the resurrection at the SC (Rev. 20:5-6).  Their probation did NOT CLOSE at their death, and will NOT CLOSE at the Second Coming.  It will close with the Battle of Gog/Magog. 

Blessings -- Rachel Cory -- prophecyviewpoint.com

 

[8thdaypriest]

​One could object to the inference that because Isaiah had a vision of the new earth with little children, this means that *every* child will be in the new earth.

​The earth is "burned" at the SC.  All vegetation is gone.  The elements even melt in some places.  So the earth in uninhabitable. 

It remains uninhabited during the 7th millennium, while the redeemed from the SC will live safely in the "place" "prepared for them" by Jesus.  That would be the Holy City.

At the END of the 7th millennium, Jesus (with the redeemed) will RETURN to "the land".  They build the Temple which Ezekiel saw in vision.  A river flows out from that Temple, and everywhere that river flows, the land comes back to life.  This is the earth renewed (made new).  And "the rest of the dead" also come back to life.  They will constitute "nations in the four corners of the earth". 

Those given eternal life, at the SC will serve as "priests of God and of Christ" to "reign on the earth".  They will "rule the nations" - governing and teaching the ways of the LORD.   This is what the LORD originally intended for Israel. 

The children which Isaiah saw in vision, will come back to life during THIS TIME PERIOD of 1000 years.   They will grow up in a Kingdom governed by Christ and His redeemed priesthood.  They are not raised with immortal spiritual bodies.  They are raised with physical mortal bodies.   If they choose to rebel with those of Gog/Magog, they will be destroyed.  

Those from "the rest of the dead" who commit to Christ, will be given access to the Tree of LIfe, and they will become immortal.  "The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations" (Rev. 22:2).

So yes Samie.  ALL human beings who died before reaching the age of accountability, will live again - in the earth renewed, along with every human being who died in ignorance.  SOME will choose to serve Christ, but MOST will rebel at Gog/Magog.   

 

[Samie]

Our Savior Himself EXPLICITLY said a time is coming when ALL in the graves will be resurrected (John 5:28, 29) and this is at the SC where every eye will see Him come in the clouds (Rev 1:7). That is why He said EVERY MAN will be rewarded at the Second Coming (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), because everyone is present to receive his own reward according to what he has done (Rom 2:5-11).

[pnattmbtc]

Well, I'd say all that goes without even saying it.  A sin of ignorance can no longer be unknown if someone is asking forgiveness for it.  If he was still ignorant of it he wouldn't be asking forgiveness for it.   I've never yet seen someone ask for forgiveness for something they didn't know was wrong.  When they learned it was wrong, yes, then they asked for forgiveness, but then they are no longer in a state of ignorance.

The question being considered was whether there was an offering for sins of ignorance as of the time of the offering.  This is being suggested.  I'm not aware of any Scripture which teaches this.