Are we born justified?

May 16, 2015

Is your idea that a child doesn't have a character?

I know some characters....

You know, I don't find this word, "character", in the Bible. That's an EGW term she used often.

May 16, 2015

Robert,

Which is more important, getting saved, or staying saved?

Let me guess, you stay saved by being good?

May 16, 2015

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". You say that's legalism.

Okay, have you stopped sinning, not only outwardly, but at the motive level? If not, why not?

Paul says "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". You say that's legalism.

Jesus says "take up your cross and follow me". You say that's legalism.

John says " He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." You say that is impossible in this life, and besides, we are "in Him" at the cross.

John says, " But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." You say we need no such demonstration for we are all in Him at the cross.

.Paul says "You have not yet resisted unto blood striving agianst sin" You say that is legalistic and unnecessary as Jesus has done that for us.

Can you not see that your doctrine fails to meet the test of scripture?

Again, have you sweated blood in resisting temptation? Would you be willing to die, forever (that's the 2nd death), so your enemies could take your place? That's what Christ did on the cross. He was willing to give up everything, forever, so that sinners...His enemies...might have mansions and eternal life in heaven.

Hence there was never any self-seeking or self-love in Christ's life. Christ had (and has) only agape and agape is the fulfillment of the law.

So ultimately you do not get eternal life by your obedience to the law. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law" Rom 3:20 Does that deny that the believer resting in Christs doesn't do any "good works"? No, it just means from the law's point of view the believer is never good enough for heaven. Why?

Because, as Romans 3:23 states, "all have sinned AND fall short of" God's agape (His glory). So according to the Bible you have a past record of sins and you and I are failing to live Christ's life of total selflessness (i.e., a life of no self-seeking).

So yes, if you aren't resting, if you are depending on your works to save you, then you are practicing legalism.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Robert

May 16, 2015

I know some characters....

You know, I don't find this word, "character", in the Bible. That's an EGW term she used often.

So what is an infant's/child's character?

"the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual."

May 16, 2015

[Jesus speaking]

"My sheep HEAR My voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW Me. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (Joh 10:27-28 NKJ)

The key words seem to be HEAR and FOLLOW. The word HEAR is not talking about physical "ears" reacting to sound waves. The word used here, includes an understanding of and assent to what is "heard". As in "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God. The LORD is one." We respond to His spirit. It is through His spirit, that He "speaks" to us.

His sheep are those who HEAR His voice, AND FOLLOW Him. He will give THEM eternal life, and THEY will never perish. This does not sound like every sheep begins life as His.

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will HEAR My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (Joh 10:16)

All of us were BORN wild, out on the hills, just doing our thing. Sheep tend to gather in "herds" under strong rams. People too, seem to gather around strong leaders.

Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

The way I understand it, Jesus paid for all of the sheep. Did He pay the redemption price to Satan (who claimed them as his) ? Could be.

So because He paid for them, Jesus now OWNS the entire population of sheep.

He can do what He chooses, with the sheep He owns. (That is called DOMINION.)

He COULD give eternal life to all of them. But He says that He will not. Only to those who "hear" Him, and respond by "following". The sheep are mostly still wild, and they don't KNOW Him - even though He OWNS THEM. They are gathered in clumps under various shepherds. How to gather them?? He doesn't send sheep dogs to nip at our heels, to frighten us into the fold. He simply calls, and leads.

Satan keeps trying to act like all the sheep are still his. But they are NOT. The sheep are now free to HEAR the Shepherd, and to FOLLOW Him. And if they do, then Satan is NOT ALLOWED to take them back. (I didn't say the sheep cannot wander off, because they aren't listening for the Shepherd - at least until Satan is destroyed.)

The question of the tread was, "Are we born justified?". I think Robert must define the term justified, as it relates to the SHEEP and the SHEPHERD.

In terms of SHEEP, does justified MEAN that we were born belonging to the Shepherd's flock? I would say - no.

May 17, 2015

From what he has posted, I would say - yes. Robert believes that all of those resurrected to be with Christ, will be instantly scrubbed, healed, changed, - so that no thought, or tendency to sin will remain in their minds, or in their persons. They will instantly be just as righteous as Christ - not because Christ's righteous legal standing will be applied to our "record" - but because we will actually BE rendered completely free of any sinful (self-serving) tendency.

Grief! Then why not render me free of any sinful tendency when I first believe. Wow! Now that would be a witness!!

THAT - is mind manipulation. I do NOT believe that our God will do THAT. He "changes" our behaviors by changing our thinking, through teaching us that His way is better than our old way.

I will agree that our hungry, tired, achy physical bodies are a source of constant irritation and stress, that makes bad behavior more likely, so when I get a new body, I won't have THAT to contend with. Yipeeeee!

I believe our physical bodies will be "changed" instantly. We will have immortal "spiritual bodies" just like angels have. But those bodies (in and of themselves) do not automatically render someone "sinless". Angels with THOSE "spiritual bodies" started the rebellion in the first place!! Those "spiritual bodies" are the REASON why they must be destroyed in a special "lake of fire". They can't DIE any other way.

I don't believe our MINDS will be changed instantly. Notice I did not say "our brains". The brain is the physical part - like a computer. Our mind is the sum of what's ON the computer. I don't believe that God will go through our personal computers - at the resurrection - and erase part of the information.

I fully agree with what you said that I turned red. You'd already bolded it so I couldn't..... This is why sanctification is sometimes so slow. It is by faith for only God can teach us these lessons and we must trust Him to do it. And when it happens "there is no thread of human devising" in the changes. We didn't author any of it.

May 17, 2015

Okay, have you stopped sinning, not only outwardly, but at the motive level? If not, why not?

Again, have you sweated blood in resisting temptation? Would you be willing to die, forever (that's the 2nd death), so your enemies could take your place? That's what Christ did on the cross. He was willing to give up everything, forever, so that sinners...His enemies...might have mansions and eternal life in heaven.

Hence there was never any self-seeking or self-love in Christ's life. Christ had (and has) only agape and agape is the fulfillment of the law.

So ultimately you do not get eternal life by your obedience to the law. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law" Rom 3:20 Does that deny that the believer resting in Christs doesn't do any "good works"? No, it just means from the law's point of view the believer is never good enough for heaven. Why?

Because, as Romans 3:23 states, "all have sinned AND fall short of" God's agape (His glory). So according to the Bible you have a past record of sins and you and I are failing to live Christ's life of total selflessness (i.e., a life of no self-seeking).

So yes, if you aren't resting, if you are depending on your works to save you, then you are practicing legalism.

Robert, your argument is a red herring. Christ knew without a doubt that a part of humanity would be saved. Even if it would have only been one He would have done it. That doesn't mean He would have made the sacrifice knowing no one would accept it. You're going way beyond both the Bible and SOP on this.

May 17, 2015

Is this the Gospel?

"Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

Or this?

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink."

YES!

May 17, 2015

But it's not the gospel. If you make it the gospel then it's legalism. The gospel is how Christ saved us in Himself plus nothing....

Yes it is. You cannot separate justification and sanctification. If you do all you have left is once-saved-always-saved. You have nothing but what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called cheap grace because you could be justified as murderer and keep right on murderering people for the rest of your life and you'd still go to heaven. And that the Bible strictly says will not happen.

May 17, 2015

Yes it is. You cannot separate justification and sanctification. If you do all you have left is once-saved-always-saved. You have nothing but what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called cheap grace because you could be justified as murderer and keep right on murderering people for the rest of your life and you'd still go to heaven. And that the Bible strictly says will not happen.

Right, we are better than those believers who believe in cheap grace, right? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom 3:31 Those other rascals believe in only justification, but we Adventists, "we establish the law". We obey not just nine commands, but all ten. And we keep the spirit of the law too, where it commands "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself."

May 17, 2015

The question of the tread was, "Are we born justified?". I think Robert must define the term justified, as it relates to the SHEEP and the SHEPHERD.

In terms of SHEEP, does justified MEAN that we were born belonging to the Shepherd's flock? I would say - no.

Jesus was using language that those in His day were already acquainted with and understood. These are metaphors.

Now, back to Paul:

Col 1:13 "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Paul wrote this long before you were born, right? Two questions:

1] Who is "us"?

2] Whoever the "us" is were they taken to heaven?

Edited May 17, 2015 by Robert

May 18, 2015

"You were bought with a price".

WHEN were you bought? At the cross? Or even further back, when the PROMISE was made, that the Son of God would submit to testing by Satan himself.

We were BOUGHT - yes. So we all belong to Christ - yes. Does that mean He will save every one of us? - NO !!

He bought the dominion. The ownership of earth - with all the people.

But He says Himself, that only those who HEAR His voice, and FOLLOW Him will receive eternal life.

So - all men are NOT born as one of the Jesus sheep. They are NOT all "My sheep" .

He may own the sheep, but not all the sheep have willingly agreed to serve Him.

IF a rich man, bought a whole ship load of slaves (back in 1794), and then told all of the slaves they were now free to stay with Him, or to go their own way, ONLY the slaves who willingly stayed to serve the rich man, would then be "His" servants (no longer slaves).

Edited May 18, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

May 18, 2015

"You were bought with a price".

WHEN were you bought? At the cross? Or even further back, when the PROMISE was made, that the Son of God would submit to testing by Satan himself.

We were BOUGHT - yes. So we all belong to Christ - yes. Does that mean He will save every one of us? - NO !!

He bought the dominion. The ownership of earth - with all the people.

But He says Himself, that only those who HEAR His voice, and FOLLOW Him will receive eternal life.

So - all men are NOT born as one of the Jesus sheep. They are NOT all "My sheep" .

He may own the sheep, but not all the sheep have willingly agreed to serve Him.

IF a rich man, bought a whole ship load of slaves (back in 1794), and then told all of the slaves they were now free to stay with Him, or to go their own way, ONLY the slaves who willingly stayed to serve the rich man, would then be "His" servants (no longer slaves).

The questions were about the context:

Col 1:13 "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

1] Who is "us"?

2] Whoever the "us" is were they taken to heaven?

May 18, 2015

The "us" would be Paul and those who believe in Jesus Christ. [True belief results in good works, otherwise it is "dead" faith.]

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, (NKJ)

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. (NKJ)

We come into that kingdom, that church, that sprinkled blood, that New Covenant [marriage betrothal] when we believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. At THAT moment, our name is "registered in heaven", and we are regarded as citizens.

Were they "taken" to heaven? No - not yet. Just as I can be a citizen of the United States, while presently living in England.

May 18, 2015

What is the essential “problem” that our God our Father is trying to deal with?

Short answer: lies about Himself
He wants to be KNOWN for who He truly is.
We must come to KNOW HIM for who He truly is - or the free will He has given us (to love Him and others), will be turned into the means of our self-destruction.

So the second "problem" - is our FREE WILL. How can He get us to CHOOSE Him, without violating our FREE WILL??????

Satan deceived Eve into distrusting God. His deception only worked, because Eve did not KNOW God well enough at that point. Which is WHY God did not destroy her and Adam. He gave them TIME to learn more of Him, and also to learn more (mostly through experience) about the Deceiver.

If you’ve never seen the old movie, “The Miracle Worker” - see it !! It’s about Helen Keller and her teacher, Anne Sullivan. It's about the first few weeks during which Miss Sullivan was trying to “reach” Helen - a girl who was blind and deaf. Helen fought and fought and fought against her teacher, not understanding that her teacher was trying to help - not understanding what her teacher was trying to “say” with all of the hand signs.   Finally she “got it” through one word remembered from her babyhood. She connected the hand sign with the word, and the “light came on” in her world. She could communicate. And even better, others could communicate with her. That process took TIME.

Well - our God is trying to communicate with us. But most are like Helen Keller - just flailing their hands "in the dark".

Some actually have "seen" the love of God, but have CHOSEN not to surrender to that love. That's their CHOICE.

God knew from the beginning, how long the process would take, until every person had made an informed CHOICE.

I agree with this. I have seen the movie. That's a nice analogy to use.

May 18, 2015

Re: citizens

I think Robert has raised a good question. It must be. It has generated a long thread. It is obvious that Jesus died for ALL MANKIND. So He BOUGHT all mankind. I think that is speaking of the "dominion" of earth.

But just because Jesus paid the price, and recovered "the land" (earth) does NOT mean every person living on the earth has become a member of His own family. Just as Abraham was promised the land, but there were many Canaanites living on the land. They were NOT citizens of Israel. All Canaanites were to be killed or banished.

May 18, 2015

Re: citizens

I think Robert has raised a good question. It must be. It has generated a long thread. It is obvious that Jesus died for ALL MANKIND. So He BOUGHT all mankind. I think that is speaking of the "dominion" of earth.

But just because Jesus paid the price, and recovered "the land" (earth) does NOT mean every person living on the earth has become a member of His own family. Just as Abraham was promised the land, but there were many Canaanites living on the land. They were NOT citizens of Israel. All Canaanites were to be killed or banished.

In studying ga'al it becomes very clear that the dominion that Jesus bought back for us is the dominion that Adam lost. He lost ownership of this earth and thus the earth is our lost inheritance. The dominion Adam was given over this earth is another part of our inheritance that Jesus bought back. And, Adam lost domnion over himself and that also Jesus bought back. He could do this for all humanity because when He became human He became the closest relative of each of who was able to pay the price. All of this is in the study of ga'al. It is indisputable when ga'al is studied.

May 18, 2015

It always comes down to the children, and to those who lived and died in ignorance (whatever the reason for that ignorance).

I AGREE with Robert, that God "covers" all sins of ignorance. THAT was demonstrated by "the daily", which was offered for "sins of ignorance". It was understood - even back then - that this sacrifice also "covered" those of "the nations" who were sinning against Yahweh, in ignorance.

Paul also wrote about that. "At the times of ignorance God winked".

Where I do NOT agree with Robert, or with traditional Adventism, is with their teaching that children who die (obviously in ignorance) will get a FREE PASS to eternal life in the Kingdom of God. Slaves who die in ignorance, or pagans unreached by the missionaries, will apparently be LEFT "like the beasts" - not receiving eternal life, but not going to the lake of fire either. (Why not children?)

I believe that "sins of ignorance" are "covered" ONLY FOR A TIME, until those persons can HEAR the truth, and are able to RESPOND, either with faith or with rebellion. THAT will require, they be resurrected, and be given time to hear and respond. THAT is why I believe that "the rest of the dead" are NOT the condemned from the first 6000 years.

The "rest of the dead" will be all of those who died in ignorance of God and of His Law (whatever the reason for that ignorance).

Someone is going to quote Acts 17:30, or Romans 1:20 to say that the truths of Yahweh and His law, were revealed through created things, so every person is "without excuse". BUT that would mean there is no such thing as a sin of ignorance. I believe those verses are speaking of those things which pagans do (or do not do) because of the influence of God's convicting spirit. Laws against murder, or theft, or false testimony, or wife stealing, (women were possessions, therefore adultery was simply theft of another's wife). Finer things like "no other god's before Me" or "no images", or Sabbath, or "you shall not covet", or "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" - those would require more information.

I've been around Adventism for a long time. All but about a decade of my life. I've never heard that children in general are given a free pass to heaven. I find that a very suspect belief, but it is a logical conclusion if you believe what Robert believes. And I have to say that most of Adventism disagrees with Robert's beliefs. Sequiraites like Robert are a small faction in the overall SDA church. That's why he's so strident here. He's trying to proselytise.

May 18, 2015

Let me guess, you stay saved by being good?

Let me guess, Robert, you can live a life of total rebellion towards God after you say the magic words and you'll go to heaven.

May 18, 2015

No....

So you can ignore the yoke of Christ and ignore learning from Him and still find rest for your soul? And "rest for your soul" isn't part and parcel of the gospel....

May 18, 2015

I've been around Adventism for a long time. All but about a decade of my life. I've never heard that children in general are given a free pass to heaven. I find that a very suspect belief, but it is a logical conclusion if you believe what Robert believes. And I have to say that most of Adventism disagrees with Robert's beliefs. Sequiraites like Robert are a small faction in the overall SDA church. That's why he's so strident here. He's trying to proselytise.

It's a mistake to equate Robert's beliefs with Sequeira's. Robert has acknowledged this himself, saying that Sequeira doesn't do his thinking for him (which is a good thing on Robert's part). Robert has posted links where one can see for oneself what Sequeira is saying. I seriously doubt that Sequeira would maintain the position that newborns or children before the age of accountability will automatically be taken to heaven (I think there's close to a 0% probability this is what he thinks), although I didn't see anything specifically on his site which discusses this particular point.

May 18, 2015

Regarding sins of ignorance, first of all, it seems from a scriptural standpoint, that the offerings regardings sins of ignorance were really involving sins which were sins of ignorance at the time they were committed, but not at the time the offering was made.

If we think of how forgiveness works, there are two parties concerned. One party who was sinned against, and the offending party. From the standpoint of God, one could argue that God has already forgiveen us, and from that position of having forgiven us He gives us His Son, not simply as a sacrifice, but as a gift to the human race for all eternity.

The "whole mission" of Christ, according to the Spirit of Prophecy, was the revelation of God in order to set men right and keep men right with God. Setting men right with God is justification by faith. We are justified by faith when the revelation of the Father leads us to repent and we are converted.

How do sins of ignorance fit into this? If God has already forgiven us, then sins of ignorance can only become an issue when we become aware of what we did.

If God has already forgiven us, why does Scripture say if we confess our sins then He is faithful and just to forgive us, implying that He doesn't forgive us until we ask for it? Because there are two ways of looking at forgiveness. One is from the point of view of the party that is wronged. From that point of view, God has forgiven us, which we can see from 2 Cor. 5 and 1 John 2:2 where God is not imputing sins against us and has provided a propitiation for all sins, acts which predate our repetance or forgiveness. The other way of looking at forgiveness is from the point of view of the offending party. The offending party can only experience forgiveness by repentance and contrition, including the act of asking for forgiveness, and the party which was wronged granting the forgiveness. There is a relationship issue, which involves actions from both parties. God cannot unilaterlly forgive us in a way that restores our relationship with Him; we need to be involved. But there is a sense in which He has forgiven us before we ask.

May 18, 2015

I know some characters....

You know, I don't find this word, "character", in the Bible. That's an EGW term she used often.

This is because Ellen White spoke English. The concept (which is what we should be looking for) is there.

May 18, 2015

Better to be link little children.. then some of us..

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/18-3.htm

May 18, 2015

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18) This is why the Gospel is such good news!

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