Are we born justified?

[Samie]

From another thread:

    . . .

Robert quotes verses out of context, and applies the statement to all of mankind, when the context clearly applies the statement ONLY to "the church" or to "those who have believed". 

The Church is the Body of Christ. To be attached to Christ is to be attached to His Body. If only "those who have believed" were attached to His Body, then something seems wrong.

Believing is the exercise of Faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Fruit results from being attached to the Branch. To say "believe to be attached to Christ" is saying "Bear fruit to be attached to the branch".

[joeb]

From Waggoner:

To see how God forgives us, look at how Jesus forgave.  Did He require a sacrifice in order to forgive the paralytic?

​This has nothing to do with forgiveness.  It has to do with the rule of universe.  God is a just ruler.  He has a set of laws by which He governs the universe, as every government has laws by which it maintains law and order.  And, like every other government in the universe there are punishments for breaking God's laws.  If there weren't then His government would soon descend into anarachy, just like any other government would.  He can forgive the repentant sinner, but not the unrepentant sinner, thus justification, eternal life, etc... is only for the repentant sinner.  It can't be for the unrepentant sinner or God would be undercutting His own authority and government.    

[8thdaypriest]

​Sure there's a NC.  Do you think that an infant understands these concepts?  No!  How about the mentally handicapped?  Again, no.  How about all those aborted fetuses? Again, absolutely not.  So too bad for them, huh?  Again, if what I'm stating is error then Satan is winning in the great controversy and the good news as it is "in Christ" is really only good advice.

​Infants, mentally handicapped, and pagans unreached by the NEWS of God (and Christ) will be resurrect as 'the rest of the dead" at the 8th millennium (the 8th day).  They will constitute "nations in the four corners of the earth".  They will be educated in the things of God by the "priests of God and of Christ" (Rev. 20:5-6), and will THEN come to serve God, or rebel against His King Jesus Christ.  Those who rebel will die at Gog/Magog. 

So - God has a PLAN to save many of those unreached before the Second Coming. 

[8thdaypriest]

From another thread:

The Church is the Body of Christ. To be attached to Christ is to be attached to His Body. If only "those who have believed" were attached to His Body, then something seems wrong.

Believing is the exercise of Faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Fruit results from being attached to the Branch. To say "believe to be attached to Christ" is saying "Bear fruit to be attached to the branch".

​Samie,

I don't understand WHY it seems "wrong" to you, that only "those who  have believed" are regarded by the Father as having "died with Him".

Those who are "baptized into His death", are expressing belief in the true meaning of His death.  They are ENTERING in - to the New Covenant.  When they partake of "the bread" and "the wine" of the Passover (Lord's Supper), they continue to express that belief.   Those who have NEVER entered in to the New Covenant, have NOT entered in to a covenant relationship with Christ.  They are NOT part of "His bride" or "His body" or "His church". 

[Stan]

I am more of the believe that God works and deals with everyone, and everyone has a chance to respond to the Holy Spirit, no matter what their background is.

Some will say  Mr Jesus, What happened to your hands?

[8thdaypriest]

I am more of the believe that God works and deals with everyone, and everyone has a chance to respond to the Holy Spirit, no matter what their background is.

Some will say  Mr Jesus, What happened to your hands?

​I totally agree Stan.  I just believe that will happen for many many people, during the 8th millennium. 

I used to believe that "the spirit of God" reaches every human being, during this age - from Adam to the SC, and God would judge each one, based upon the individual's response to His spirit, no matter what their age.  I remember one fellow said that God could have a "relationship" with a four celled embryo.  He said that God would judge that "person" (embryo or fetus) based upon the works that he/she might have done, had his/her life been continued.  [It's also possible to drown in 4 inches of water - but very unlikely.]   There is no suggestion - in Scripture - that God ever judges "works" that might have been.  Only "works" written in the "books" of record, are judged. 

I now believe that - yes - God does seek to influence the minds and therefore behavior, of ALL human beings.  THAT pleading influence is God's gift to mankind.  And yes - you could call it "grace".  But I believe that it takes a degree of maturity and function to respond to the universal "influence" with BELIEF and CONFESSION.   And humans have the ability to resist the pleading.  It's called "free will".

I believe it takes some maturity of mental development and some degree of mental function, in order for a person to BELIEVE in the specific divine Being we call "the Father" and in another divine being we call "Jesus Christ".    A resurrection to continued life, (with healing for those who are disfunctional) is required for that maturity and function to come about.  I also believe that a human being (unreached pagans)  must receive INFORMATION, before he can respond to that information.  Hence the reports of those who have not yet believed, receiving visions or dreams of missionaries coming, or of angels, or of Christ (whom they later see in the Jesus Film). 

Romans 10:9 speaks of TWO things which one must DO in order to be "saved".   "Believe with your heart" and "confess with your mouth" that God the Father has raised Jesus Christ from the dead.   Infants, mentally handicapped, and unreached pagans cannot do either. 

[8thdaypriest]

Samie says that we humans cannot BELIEVE without the indwelling of the Spirit of God - (which he also called being attached to the vine, or the tree). 
The influence, pleading, knocking of the spirit of Christ IS NOT equal with "the indwelling" of the Spirit of Christ. 

Judas was influenced.  God was pleading with his mind/spirit.  But Judas RESISTED and was lost.  Same for Pharoah, or King Agrippa, or Pilot, or the "rich young ruler".   The fact that we can RESIST the influence of the Spirit, I think, tells us clearly that pleading or influence is NOT to be equated with being "in Christ", or "in Covenant", or in a "saved" or "sealed" condition. 

[pnattmbtc]

Me:To see how God forgives us, look at how Jesus forgave.  Did He require a sacrifice in order to forgive the paralytic?

Joeb:This has nothing to do with forgiveness.  It has to do with the rule of universe.  God is a just ruler.  He has a set of laws by which He governs the universe, as every government has laws by which it maintains law and order.  And, like every other government in the universe there are punishments for breaking God's laws.  If there weren't then His government would soon descend into anarachy, just like any other government would.  He can forgive the repentant sinner, but not the unrepentant sinner, thus justification, eternal life, etc... is only for the repentant sinner.  It can't be for the unrepentant sinner or God would be undercutting His own authority and government.  

When you say "this", what are you talking about?  I was talking about forgiveness, and clearly forgiveness has to do with forgiveness, so "this" must be something else.  Also at the bottom "it can't be for the unrepentant sinner or God would be undercutting His own government" what is "it"?  You must be talking about the sacrifice(?)
 
 I'm guessing you're arguing that God requires a sacrifice, and that this has nothing to do with forgiveness.  I'll go on that assumption.
 
 This will take a bit to flesh out, as it has to do with the purpose of sacrifice, and, in particular, how sacrifice was viewed by the people who were making it, but let me start with a question.  How do you understand the following:
 
 "For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Ps. 51:16,17)"

[pnattmbtc]

​You just did a paradox:

1. "One can only be spiritually alive by accepting Christ as one's personal savior."

2. "To be spiritually alive, one must be connected to Christ by faith, just like the vine and the branches."

If one can do the spiritual act of "accepting Christ" then one is not spiritually dead, because only the spiritually alive can do spiritual acts.  Our being connected to Christ is God's work FOR us. He did this through Christ on the cross (Eph 2:11-19).

As in the analogy of vine and branches, fruit-bearing can occur because the vine is attached to the branch. Fruit-bearing  results from being alive. Being alive is the result of being attached to the branch. "Acceptance" results from being spiritually alive. Not the other way around.

Believing is the exercise of Faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Fruit results from being attached to the Branch. To say "believe to be attached to Christ" is saying "Bear fruit to be attached to the branch".

​It appears to me that you have an unusual understanding as to what "spiritually alive" means.  Most people would understand this phrase to mean someone who has eternal life, so let's start with this.  Do you agree that to be "spiritually alive" is equivalent to having eternal life?  Or is it possible to have eternal life and not be spiritual alive?  Or the other way around, to be spitirually alive but not have eternal life?

[pnattmbtc]

​I was merely using the same word "grudge" you used in explaining your position relative to reconciliation which occurred when Jesus died (Rom 5:10):

​And to which I replied:

​Because the change must occur NOT to God but to man who cannot change his condition, God changed man's condition by removing man's "grudge" which I paralleled to "sin".

 

​This isn't dealing with the issue.  The issue is that man has a grudge against God, which involves man's heart, how he thinks about God.  This isn't something God can unilaterally change.  This is something which happens to man when man perceives something and responds to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.  It's a supernatural experience that happens to an individual.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert: Since we do not arrive in this world condemned (see Rom 5:18) the law doesn't put us "in prison" (see Gal 3:23) locked up in death row.  Therefore we come into this world free from condemnation.  Now, when we mature and the law exposes us as transgressors then we have to make a choice:

a] Accept what is already true of the goodnews in Christ

or

b] Reject it.

You write that we don't arrive in the world condemned citing Rom. 5:18.  Also 2 Cor. 5 comes to mind, where it talks about God's not imputing sin.  I have two questions.

1.Is Rom. 5:18 (and 2 Cor. 5) dealing with all men at all times in their live, or only the period of time that extends from when they are born until they reach the age of accountability? (at which point they would need to accept the good news to not be condemned).

2.When you say "accept what is already true of the good news in Christ" what exactly do you mean?  Are you talking about believing a proposition (e.g., that all men were in Christ, and thus, in Him justified)?  Or something else?

 

[pnattmbtc]

Me:But if the "Good News" is limited to the single concept of legal justification, then, well, that's very limited

Robert:It's your only ticket to heaven.  Everything else pales in comparison. Yes, in Christ's justification of the human race the love of God is seen because He was willing to say goodbye to life, not for 3 days, but for eternity.  That's agape and God is agape.

You write, "everything else pales in comparison."  However, the Good News is not about our "ticket to heaven", but about God.

It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour’s matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary’s cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. They hear His voice, and they follow Him. DA 480.3

That God is not the selfish being that the enemy has portrayed Him to be, but is instead the wonderful Being that Jesus revealed is the Good News, and everything else pales in comparison.

Robert: Yes, in Christ's justification of the human race the love of God is seen because He was willing to say goodbye to life, not for 3 days, but for eternity.  That's agape and God is agape.

This is true!  If we consider the Gospel as involving the revelation of God's character, or agape, then this is a much less limited view of the Gospel.  Then we can see that Gospels are relevant in all that they record, as Jesus Christ did nothing but reveal the agape of God.

 

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Our problem is not the law but us.  We need to be fixed so we love God instead of hating Him.  What good would it do to take people to heaven who hate God?

Samie:No, the law condemns sinners and to be under law and a sinner is problematic.  So Christ came to deliver us, legally, from under law to under grace.

No to what?  How does your remark address the problem of people's hating God needing to be changed to loving God?

Samie:Your question is meaningless because the believer is raised in complete harmony with God's agape love.  

When I spoke of loving God instead of hating God, I didn't have in mind believers.  Your remark here doesn't make sense to me.  How is the issue of people hating God being dealt with?  Do they die hating God, but are ressurrected loving God?  I'm not following what you're wanting to say here; please explain. 

[Samie]

​Samie,

I don't understand WHY it seems "wrong" to you, that only "those who  have believed" are regarded by the Father as having "died with Him".

​I have already explained why:

Believing is the exercise of Faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Fruit results from being attached to the Branch. To say "believe to be attached to Christ" is saying "Bear fruit to be attached to the branch".

​Is there something wrong in saying "Bear fruit to be attached to the branch"?

If your answer is Yes, then I guess you now understand. Otherwise you are saying that a twig must bear fruit first so that it can be attached to the branch. And this is why I said something seems wrong.

[Samie]

Some will say  Mr Jesus, What happened to your hands?

​This appears to me as a question from those who have no knowledge that Jesus died for them. The fact that they are with Jesus proves they are among the righteous throng, the recipients of His promise "I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also".

[joeb]

When you say "this", what are you talking about?  I was talking about forgiveness, and clearly forgiveness has to do with forgiveness, so "this" must be something else.  Also at the bottom "it can't be for the unrepentant sinner or God would be undercutting His own government" what is "it"?  You must be talking about the sacrifice(?)
 
 I'm guessing you're arguing that God requires a sacrifice, and that this has nothing to do with forgiveness.  I'll go on that assumption.
 
 This will take a bit to flesh out, as it has to do with the purpose of sacrifice, and, in particular, how sacrifice was viewed by the people who were making it, but let me start with a question.  How do you understand the following:
 
 "For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. (Ps. 51:16,17)"

I'm talking about God's law, His government, and how He must uphold His law.  Forgiveness is separate from Him upholding His rule of law in His government.  To say it isn't is to ignore the unfallen angels and unfallen worlds.  They must live according to God's law just like we must.  Thus, He can't forgive unrepentant sinners.  I think that almost goes without saying and for the reasons I stated.  Thus, His forgiveness is only for those who repent.  Otherwise God has a big problem with fairness.  He can't accept the unrepentant sinner the same way He accepts someone from an unfallen world, or someone who has repented and become obedient through the indwelling power of Christ.   That would be the equivalent of saying there really isn't any difference between obedience and disobedience, that God will not enforce His own laws.

[Samie]

​It appears to me that you have an unusual understanding as to what "spiritually alive" means.  Most people would understand this phrase to mean someone who has eternal life, so let's start with this.  Do you agree that to be "spiritually alive" is equivalent to having eternal life?  Or is it possible to have eternal life and not be spiritual alive?  Or the other way around, to be spitirually alive but not have eternal life?

​As the physically dead CANNOT do any physical act, in like manner, the spiritually dead CANNOT do any spiritual act.

We were born with our names in the book of life and therefore members of the family of God, attached to the Body of Christ. Christ is our Life (Col 3:4). Attached to Him, we have eternal life, until detached at death for NOT overcoming evil with good while alive.

[Samie]

Hi pnattmbtc;

Samie:No, the law condemns sinners and to be under law and a sinner is problematic.  So Christ came to deliver us, legally, from under law to under grace.

Samie:Your question is meaningless because the believer is raised in complete harmony with God's agape love.  

​I can't recall having posted something like the ones above.

​

[LifeHiscost]

​

NRS  1 Timothy 2:3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

This doesn't sound like everyone is BORN in a "saved" condition. 

​The conclusion sounds like a stretch, more like an opinion.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

  ​This appears to me as a question from those who have no knowledge that Jesus died for them. The fact that they are with Jesus proves they are among the righteous throng, the recipients of His promise "I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also".

Samie

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[pnattmbtc]

I'm talking about God's law, His government, and how He must uphold His law.  Forgiveness is separate from Him upholding His rule of law in His government.  To say it isn't is to ignore the unfallen angels and unfallen worlds.  They must live according to God's law just like we must.  Thus, He can't forgive unrepentant sinners.  I think that almost goes without saying and for the reasons I stated.  Thus, His forgiveness is only for those who repent.  Otherwise God has a big problem with fairness.  He can't accept the unrepentant sinner the same way He accepts someone from an unfallen world, or someone who has repented and become obedient through the indwelling power of Christ.   That would be the equivalent of saying there really isn't any difference between obedience and disobedience, that God will not enforce His own laws.

Is this something I was talking about?  I'm having difficulty understanding why you responded to my post with this.  I wasn't talking about this (at least, in my mind I wasn't).  If you see some link between what I wrote and what you're responding here, please let me know what it is. 

[pnattmbtc]

Hi pnattmbtc;

​I can't recall having posted something like the ones above.

​

​I wrote, "Our problem is not the law but us.  We need to be fixed so we love God instead of hating Him.  What good would it do to take people to heaven who hate God?"  You responded earlier in this thread, just look back.

[8thdaypriest]

​This isn't dealing with the issue.  The issue is that man has a grudge against God, which involves man's heart, how he thinks about God.  This isn't something God can unilaterally change.  This is something which happens to man when man perceives something and responds to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.  It's a supernatural experience that happens to an individual.

​AND it is a supernatural "experience" which can be resisted!! 

[8thdaypriest]

I am glad for this forum and a place to dialog.  The discussion has helped me to better understand just how and when men are "saved" and to formulate a better exposition of my beliefs.   For me, it all boils down to FREEDOM - meaning FREE WILL.   Will our God save any individual by transporting him/her (without his/her consent) into His eternal Kingdom.  Will He overpower the mind of any individual to render him/her compliant with His "will".  My answer to a resounding "No!!!"

Hence the NEED for every human being who was unable to consent during his/her life, to be resurrected to continue that life, to learn of God, and then to consent to be indwelt by God, or to resist His spirit, until destroyed at Gog/Magog. 

[8thdaypriest]

Samei referred to salvation past, present, and future.  Would these be the same as justification, sanctification, and glorification - the three STEPS in the process of salvation? 

So Samie, you would say that justification was already taken care of for us, by the death of Christ.  Right?  So does that mean every person who was unable to CHOOSE would automatically be sanctified and glorified?  Or do they skip the sanctification step, and go straight to glorification? 

[8thdaypriest]

Hi pnattmbtc;

​I can't recall having posted something like the ones above.

​

​I think Robert is the one who said that every human being is "raised" in a condition where his mind is perfectly scrubbed of all selfish thinking.  I objected - at the time, saying that was mind manipulation.  I I don't think that is HOW our God will heal our minds.  It will be slowly - through teaching us His ways, and showing us WHY His ways are better.