Are we born justified?

[pnattmbtc]

​As the physically dead CANNOT do any physical act, in like manner, the spiritually dead CANNOT do any spiritual act.

We were born with our names in the book of life and therefore members of the family of God, attached to the Body of Christ. Christ is our Life (Col 3:4). Attached to Him, we have eternal life, until detached at death for NOT overcoming evil with good while alive.

​

You are using "spiritually alive" in a way that I've never seen it used. If you are going to use words and phrases in a unique way, it would be helpful to define your terms, as otherwise how can one understand what you are trying to say?

To define "spiritually alive" as someone who is capable of committing a spiritual act would mean that newborn infants are spiritually dead, as what spiritual act can a newborn perform?  Yet you claim infants have eternal life, which looks like a paradox, as in this scearnio we have a being who has eternal life, yet is spiritually dead (because it cannot perform a spiritual act).

How I've seen the term "spiritually alive" used is to mean "converted".

[pnattmbtc]

​I think Robert is the one who said that every human being is "raised" in a condition where his mind is perfectly scrubbed of all selfish thinking.  I objected - at the time, saying that was mind manipulation.  I I don't think that is HOW our God will heal our minds.  It will be slowly - through teaching us His ways, and showing us WHY His ways are better.

​You're right!  Sorry about that Samie.  I originally was talking to you, and Robert responded, and I didn't notice he had responded, since I was assuming you would be the one responding, so sorry about that.

Thanks 8thday for catching this.

[pnattmbtc]

Our problem is not the law but us.  We need to be fixed so we love God instead of hating Him.  What good would it do to take people to heaven who hate God?

Robert: ​No, the law condemns sinners and to be under law and a sinner is problematic.  So Christ came to deliver us, legally, from under law to under grace.

Your question is meaningless because the believer is raised in complete harmony with God's agape love.  

Let me address my response properly to you instead of Samie.  I wasn't addressing believers when I spoke of people hating God, but since you responded as you did, is your idea that believers hate God, but when they are raised again, after the resurrection, they love God?  How does this happen?  Or did you have something else in mind by your response?

I don't see how a person's hating God is addressed by your response, unless you believe this is something taken care of by being resurrected. 

[Robert]

​Samie,

I don't understand WHY it seems "wrong" to you, that only "those who  have believed" are regarded by the Father as having "died with Him".

​Because Paul doesn't state that and therefore to me it's heresy...it's another gospel.

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin" (Rom 6:6)

"you also died to the law through the body of Christ" (Rom 7:4)

"one died for all, therefore all died" (2 Cor 5:14)

Your corporate, fallen life from Adam died in Christ Jesus.  When?  2000 years ago.  This is the gospel.

 

[Robert]

 

Let me address my response properly to you instead of Samie.  I wasn't addressing believers when I spoke of people hating God, but since you responded as you did, is your idea that believers hate God, but when they are raised again, after the resurrection, they love God?  How does this happen?  Or did you have something else in mind by your response?

I don't see how a person's hating God is addressed by your response, unless you believe this is something taken care of by being resurrected. 

​I'm simply saying that those in the first resurrection will be perfect as God is perfect.  They will be without indwelling sin, that is, their bent....

[LifeHiscost]

​

Paul is talking about what baptism symbolizes. You go ino a watery grave and come up  with new commitments and  motivations.This speaking , of course, of those who choose baptism with a sincere faith.

This is the conversion experience and you don't need baptism (if not possible to obtain). This conversion experience is not given you at the cross, for it comes with a faith that leads to surrender.

​

Individuals who want all they can get from a faith in their Elder Brother will spend time in the Word and if they come up short on knowledge it only be a result of extenuating circumstances, not a deficiency in character.

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;…John 14

8"And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; ....Luke 12

5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.....John 15

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

Samei referred to salvation past, present, and future.  Would these be the same as justification, sanctification, and glorification - the three STEPS in the process of salvation? 

So Samie, you would say that justification was already taken care of for us, by the death of Christ.  Right?  So does that mean every person who was unable to CHOOSE would automatically be sanctified and glorified?  Or do they skip the sanctification step, and go straight to glorification? 

​It seems that the way I understand the Past, Present and Future Tenses of Salvation is not a perfect fit for the current understanding of justification, sanctification, and glorification.

As I have elsewhere repeatedly posted in a number of threads since I joined this forum, the past Tense of Salvation is what God did FOR man before time began contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of His Son, the Present Tense is what God does for and IN man, and the Future Tense is God's reward for man, all through our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. I call these the 3 Dimensions of the Gospel, the pure Gospel, that is.

The Past Tense of Salvation is God's writing of all names in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Hence, we were all born with our names in the book of life. But had Jesus refused to drink the cup, then the writing would have been in vain. When He died, all sins were forgiven and we all were reconciled to God. On the cross corporate justification and sanctification occurred. This dimension is all God's work FOR man, not an iota of human participation.

The Present Tense of Salvation starts at one's conception and birth until his death or the Second Coming whichever come first. In this dimension, God through His Spirit works IN man and man has to positively respond. God also works for man by not imputing sins currently committed, since these had been forgiven on the cross; instead, Christ Who was resurrected for man's justification, continually justifies man each time he sins. Hence, sin cannot have dominion over us any more. BUT the act of sinning is proof that one has not overcome evil with good. And only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life.

The Future Tense of Salvation starts at the Second Coming when Christ will reward everyman according to what each has done. Glorification for those whose names remained in the book of life; for all others, the wrath of God and finally thrown into the lake of fire.

[Samie]

​You are using "spiritually alive" in a way that I've never seen it used. If you are going to use words and phrases in a unique way, it would be helpful to define your terms, as otherwise how can one understand what you are trying to say?

To define "spiritually alive" as someone who is capable of committing a spiritual act would mean that newborn infants are spiritually dead, as what spiritual act can a newborn perform?  Yet you claim infants have eternal life, which looks like a paradox, as in this scearnio we have a being who has eternal life, yet is spiritually dead (because it cannot perform a spiritual act).

How I've seen the term "spiritually alive" used is to mean "converted".

Praising God is a spiritual act.  Therefore, newborn infants could not possibly be spiritually dead, because our Lord Himself said that babies are capable of praising God:

KJV Matt 21:16  . . . And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

 

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Let me address my response properly to you instead of Samie.  I wasn't addressing believers when I spoke of people hating God, but since you responded as you did, is your idea that believers hate God, but when they are raised again, after the resurrection, they love God?  How does this happen?  Or did you have something else in mind by your response?

I don't see how a person's hating God is addressed by your response, unless you believe this is something taken care of by being resurrected. 

Robert:I'm simply saying that those in the first resurrection will be perfect as God is perfect.  They will be without indwelling sin, that is, their bent....

This doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I was saying to Samie.  How does what your saying tie into how a person who hates God comes to love God? 

[pnattmbtc]

Me:You are using "spiritually alive" in a way that I've never seen it used. If you are going to use words and phrases in a unique way, it would be helpful to define your terms, as otherwise how can one understand what you are trying to say?

To define "spiritually alive" as someone who is capable of committing a spiritual act would mean that newborn infants are spiritually dead, as what spiritual act can a newborn perform?  Yet you claim infants have eternal life, which looks like a paradox, as in this scearnio we have a being who has eternal life, yet is spiritually dead (because it cannot perform a spiritual act).

How I've seen the term "spiritually alive" used is to mean "converted".

Samie:Praising God is a spiritual act.  Therefore, newborn infants could not possibly be spiritually dead, because our Lord Himself said that babies are capable of praising God:

KJV Matt 21:16  . . . And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

By this logic the heavens also are spiritually alive, since they proclaim the glory of God, which is a spiritual act. 

[pnattmbtc]

Samie:The Past Tense of Salvation is God's writing of all names in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Hence, we were all born with our names in the book of life.

 

This logic is not valid because, among other things, you are misquoting the verse you are basing your conclusion on.  The verse doesn't say that all names are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, but speaks of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 

[8thdaypriest]

Samie said,  "the act of sinning is proof that one has not overcome evil with good. And only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life." 

Sounds like perfectionism, to me - the teaching that each man must "overcome" every trace of sin in his life, or he cannot be saved. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

This logic is not valid because, among other things, you are misquoting the verse you are basing your conclusion on.  The verse doesn't say that all names are written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, but speaks of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 

​Actually some versions do translate the Greek (perhaps originally Aramaic in John's case) to say that names WERE written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. 

KJV  Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

NIV  Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast-- all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Complete Jewish Bible agrees with KJV on this one. 

THESE SAY THE NAMES WERE WRITTEN FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD

ASV  Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. 

NAU  Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

NRS  Revelation 13:8 and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtere

Samie says EVERY NAME was written there.  Some are blotted out by Jesus because the person fails to overcome.  But the  wording of these versions DOES NOT SAY, "whose name is not found written", as if it has been blotted out.    IT SAYS, "whose name has not been written, from the foundation of the world,  into the Book - suggesting strongly that the names of these persons were NEVER written into the book - at all.  

Now - I believe that SOME names are NEVER written into that Book, because those persons resist the Spirit of Christ and refuse to surrender.  But I also believe that some names WERE written in, and then later blotted out.  This fits with Gentiles being "grafted in", but then later "broken off" from the "Tree" with the Holy Root (Rom Cpt 11).  Jesus can only "blot out" those that were once written "into the Book". 

In the KJV, NKJV, NIV, CJB and some others, the wording "whose names are not written", allows for those that have been blotted out.  It could just as easily say, "whose names are not found, written in the Lamb's Book of Life".  But in those verses the Lamb is "slain from the foundation of the world", and it is not clear from that wording just WHEN a name is written IN to the Book. 

My belief is that a name is written into The Book WHEN a person enters into Covenant with God through Christ (whether they lived before the cross, or after).  The Passover meal is a Covenant Meal.  One partakes of the body and blood of Jesus.  [I realize some partake of it once a quarter and call it "the Lord's Supper.]

[8thdaypriest]

Most remember the doctrine of "predestination".  The wording of the ASV, NRS, NAU supports THAT doctrine.  It suggests the names of those who would be SAVED were all written into the Book, at the Creation.  The problem with this, is that we know some names are blotted out. 

[pnattmbtc]

​Actually some versions do translate the Greek (perhaps originally Aramaic in John's case) to say that names WERE written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. 

KJV  Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

NIV  Revelation 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast-- all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Complete Jewish Bible agrees with KJV on this one. 

THESE SAY THE NAMES WERE WRITTEN FROM THE CREATION OF THE WORLD

ASV  Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. 

NAU  Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

NRS  Revelation 13:8 and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtere

Samie says EVERY NAME was written there.  Some are blotted out by Jesus because the person fails to overcome.  But the  wording of these versions DOES NOT SAY, "whose name is not found written", as if it has been blotted out.    IT SAYS, "whose name has not been written, from the foundation of the world,  into the Book - suggesting strongly that the names of these persons were NEVER written into the book - at all.  

Now - I believe that SOME names are NEVER written into that Book, because those persons resist the Spirit of Christ and refuse to surrender.  But I also believe that some names WERE written in, and then later blotted out.  This fits with Gentiles being "grafted in", but then later "broken off" from the "Tree" with the Holy Root (Rom Cpt 11).  Jesus can only "blot out" those that were once written "into the Book". 

In the KJV, NKJV, NIV, CJB and some others, the wording "whose names are not written", allows for those that have been blotted out.  It could just as easily say, "whose names are not found, written in the Lamb's Book of Life".  But in those verses the Lamb is "slain from the foundation of the world", and it is not clear from that wording just WHEN a name is written IN to the Book. 

My belief is that a name is written into The Book WHEN a person enters into Covenant with God through Christ (whether they lived before the cross, or after).  The Passover meal is a Covenant Meal.  One partakes of the body and blood of Jesus.  [I realize some partake of it once a quarter and call it "the Lord's Supper.]

​Every Greek text I could see had the wording "from the foundation of the world" after "the lamb that was slain", like this: "the names of them in the book of life of the lamb having been slain from foundation of world."  I don't know how one could argue linguistically this should be translated in a different order.  It would be interesting to see if I can find such an argument.

At any rate, from the standpoint of logic it doesn't make sense to say that people's names are written in a book from the foundation of the world, unless we are Calvinists.

Edited May 27, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Samie]

Adam and Eve and all their descendants have their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, except those who are offspring of evil angels who intermarried with human women and produced demons. There is no plan of redemption for Satan and his host.

ASV Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

ESV Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit(1 )and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

KJV Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

NAS Revelation 17:8 (a)"The beast that you saw (b)was and is not, and is about to (c)come up out of the (d)abyss and (1)to (e)go to destruction. And (f)those who dwell on the earth will (g)wonder, (h)whose name has not been written in the book of life (i)from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

NIV Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

NKJ Revelation 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

NLT Revelation 17:8 The beast you saw was once alive but isn't now. And yet he will soon come up out of the bottomless pit(1 )and go to eternal destruction. And the people who belong to this world, whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made, will be amazed at the reappearance of this beast who had died.

NRS Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

 

[Samie]

Regarding these evil throng whose names were not written in the book of life, the apostle Paul writes:

NIV Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

NKJ Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

NLT Ephesians 6:12 For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

 

[Samie]

Most remember the doctrine of "predestination".  The wording of the ASV, NRS, NAU supports THAT doctrine.  It suggests the names of those who would be SAVED were all written into the Book, at the Creation.  The problem with this, is that we know some names are blotted out. 

​Jesus Himself said that overcomers will NOT be blotted out. Rev 3:5

Born with our names in the book of life, we were predestined for heaven:

NKJ Ephesians 1:3-5   3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,  5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

We all are heaven-bound unless blotted out at death for not overcoming evil while alive.

[Samie]

And sadly, in the final analysis, only the little flock have their names remain in the book of life. All others, whose number is as the sands of the sea, were blotted out for REFUSING to overcome evil with good. Born with their names in the book of life, they were born attached to the Body of Christ Who is our Strength for overcoming evil with good. It is then NOT an issue of INABILITY but one of REFUSAL to overcome.

[Samie]

Samie said,  "the act of sinning is proof that one has not overcome evil with good. And only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life." 

Sounds like perfectionism, to me - the teaching that each man must "overcome" every trace of sin in his life, or he cannot be saved. 

Born with our names in the book of life, we are attached to the Body of His Son Who is both Holy and Perfect. ​We already are Holy and PERFECT in God's sight.

NIV Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

NAS Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

And sadly, in the final analysis, only the little flock have their names remain in the book of life. All others, whose number is as the sands of the sea, were blotted out for REFUSING to overcome evil with good. Born with their names in the book of life, they were born attached to the Body of Christ Who is our Strength for overcoming evil with good. It is then NOT an issue of INABILITY but one of REFUSAL to overcome.

​

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, there's no scripture which says that everyone's name is written in the book of life.  First of all, it doesn't make sense that someone would have their name written in the book of life who doesn't exist, which seems to be what you're suggesting.  The order of operations is : person exists -> person believes in Christ -> person's name is written in the book of life.  It's not person's name is written in the book of life -> person exists -> person believes in Christ.

Both the text in Revelation 13 and Revelation 19 is talking about people's names who are NOT written in the book of life, so this can hardly be used as evidence that everybody's name IS written there.  It's saying that at no point were these people's name written in the book of life.

Regarding Revelation 3:5, this is saying the same thing as many other textx which says to be careful lest you fall.  That is, just because your name is written in the book of life now (i.e., you are presently converted) does not mean that will always be the case.  If you cease believing, your name will be blotted out of the book of life because the book of life records the names of those who believe.

There's nothing magical about the book of life.  It doesn't create any new reality; it is simply a record.  It is a record of reality, of those who believe.

[Samie]

How can God do the choosing BEFORE the foundation of the world if He does not know the names of who to choose?

NKJ Ephesians 1:3-5   3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

[Samie]

The choosing was done before the foundation of the world. Writing of names was from the foundation of the world. I have provided Scriptures. Please show me how they don't back up my position.

[Samie]

Again & again I had posted that Scriptures CLEARLY say that those whose names are NOT found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). The fact that there are babies in the new earth tells us their names are in the book of life, otherwise they would have been cast into the lake of fire.