The Stones are Crying Out

[there buster]

Just returned from an advance screening of The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe.

It is a marvelous film, faithful to the spirit of Lewis' books.

We and other evangelicals have spent millions on methods that, according to Mike Ryan, reach only 3%-4% of the population.

We've spent time arguing about issues that the lost are totally uninterested in, and which have only been snares to most within the church.

And here, in the early 21st century, fantasies that were condemned by many, many prominent SDA leaders (LOTR and Chronicles of Narnia) are drawing huge crowds paying for the privilege of seeing these films.

This is a strong reproof to both those so bound up with rules and yes, Adventist traditions that they won't lift a finger to actually reach the lost, unless the loss agree to become exactly like us, that is, Laodicean, and to those who have surrendered to scientism the sort of materialists whose imaginations are no larger than a bell jar. Both, and almost all of us, have forgotten that all Christians are in the business of Myth, in the business of the supernatural, are in the business of wonder.

It's time we got down to business.

[Bravus]

Agreed!

[Ellen]

It is interresting that you have brought up the subject of this film. Somehow in my childhood I missed reading this book and haven't seen the film.

CBC radio (Canada) today was interviewing a christian and a muslim and a non-religious person about this film. The broadcaster was trying to get them to say that the film was promoting christian principles. But none of them said that.

The Christian said he didn't think of it when he watched the film, but could see how someone could. The non-religious person said there wasn't any such thing in the film, and the muslim said he watched the film for the story value, but since the questioner was pressing he could admit there was some points relating to their religion when it came right down to it.

So obviously, a christian would think that that film was doing a good job for Christ. Was it?

[cricket]

I haven't seen it (yet), but I'm guessing that the film probably doesn't do a whole lot for Christ. If the non-religious person viewing the film doesn't see any sort of religious message, then, what good for Christianity's sake could possibly come from it?

Jesus told parables--sometimes using animals--to explain religious principles in a way that the common man could understand. Even so, He sometimes taught these principles knowing full well that some people just wouldn't understand--it wasn't for them to understand.

Christ is the only One that can open our eyes and get us to understand His principles and His will. If He wants to use this film as an eye-opener for some, He will! If it is not His desire to use it for that purpose, then I highly doubt that much good can come from it.

[Guest]

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Ed Dickerson said:

Just returned from an advance screening of The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe.

It is a marvelous film, faithful to the spirit of Lewis' books.

We and other evangelicals have spent millions on methods that, according to Mike Ryan, reach only 3%-4% of the population.

We've spent time arguing about issues that the lost are totally uninterested in, and which have only been snares to most within the church.

And here, in the early 21st century, fantasies that were condemned by many, many prominent SDA leaders (LOTR and Chronicles of Narnia) are drawing huge crowds

paying

for the privilege of seeing these films.

This is a strong reproof to both those so bound up with rules and yes,

Adventist traditions

that they won't lift a finger to actually reach the lost, unless the loss agree to become exactly like us, that is, Laodicean, and to those who have surrendered to

scien

tism

the sort of materialists whose imaginations are no larger than a bell jar. Both, and almost all of us, have forgotten that all Christians are in the business of Myth, in the business of the supernatural, are in the business of wonder.

It's time we got down to business.

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Lots of us are "getting down to business." Your charcterizations here are quite a stretch at best. Why do we need to use witches to illustrate anything about Jesus?

[there buster]

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10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

"Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15For this people's heart has become calloused;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.

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Who was it that would not hear? The chosen ones.

[cricket]

Ed,

I was thinking more along the lines that there were things He chose to reveal at certain times; like when He told His disciples about rebuilding the temple in three days--they didn't understand until it was revealed to them.

At any rate, I wasn't trying to be antagonistic in my post. We will likely be seeing this movie tomorrow. I'll let you know more when I get to see it.

Chrys

[Pockey]

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Christine Wall said:

I haven't seen it (yet), but I'm guessing that the film probably doesn't do a whole lot for Christ. If the non-religious person viewing the film doesn't see any sort of religious message, then, what good for Christianity's sake could possibly come from it?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I think the movie could be good because it provides an additional way for us to introduce others about Jesus. You're right that someone unfamiliar with Jesus may not see the religious message when they view this movie. But this movie provides an awesome way and avenue for us to introduce Jesus to them. It's another useful tool for us to explain Jesus to them. I believe that a lot of minds will "click" once they put 2 and 2 together. The key component is us! <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Amelia]

I watched this on Thursday and it was great. Gives alot of background on CS Lewis and his struggle with God and faith.

C.S. Lewis: Beyond Narnia

The Hallmark Channel

The transformational story of the literary genius who brought to life The Chronicles of Narnia unfolds on the small screen in “C.S. Lewis: Beyond Narnia.”

Having sold millions of copies since it was first published in 1950, the seven-book series The Chronicles of Narnia is among the world’s most beloved children’s book. Gathering much of his inspiration from personal experiences, a close examination into the life of C.S. Lewis, throughout this one-hour docudrama shot on location in England, explores the impact of his mother’s death, his friendship with The Lord of the Rings author J.R.R. Tolkien, and the four imaginative children who came to live with him during World War II and became the characters in The Chronicles of Narnia.

http://www.parentstv.org/ptc/publications/reviews/cslewisnarnia.asp

[Guest]

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Ed Dickerson said:

This is a strong reproof to both those so bound up with rules and yes,

Adventist traditions

that they won't lift a finger to actually reach the lost, unless the loss agree to become exactly like us, that is, Laodicean, and to those who have surrendered to

scien

tism

the sort of materialists whose imaginations are no larger than a bell jar.

---

All of your generalizations and rhetoric are enough to create a ring in anyone's "belljar."

As we know, The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe was just released as a major motion picture by Walt Disney Pictures and Walden Media. All the local Libraries here in my city are cleaned out of Narnia materials; it's a real craze; much akin to the mid-eighties initial craze with The Cabbage Patch Dolls.

The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe was written in 1950. So far, 86 million copies have been sold, with an additional 6 million copies being purchased every year.

Director Andrew Adamson says: “This is a story about four kids, disempowered by the war in their own world, World War II, who enter this land where they’re not only empowered, but they’re ultimately the only solution to war in that land. And it’s only through betrayal and forgiveness and finally, unity as a family, that they can overcome those odds… We’re taking the story of a family, and exaggerating it to the level of the battle between good and evil. But at its heart, it’s still a very personal story.”

The story climaxes with Aslan, the children, the Witch and Edmund meeting at the Stone Table. The Witch reminds Aslan that, according to ancient law, all traitors belong to her and she has the right to kill them. So Aslan offers her a trade – his life for Edmund’s. And in a dramatic scene, the Witch has Aslan the Lion tied down, shaved and put to death on the Stone Table. The children are in despair. All hope is gone. How could this happen? How could one so powerful have something so awful happen to him?

Just before dawn, they sneak back to the now-deserted Stone Table and untie the ropes around Aslan’s dead body. His body is mangled and mutilated, but a few minutes later, they can hardly believe their eyes as life actually returns to him, and they witness his resurrection.

Aslan explains that, while ancient law dictates that all traitors belong to the Witch, an even more ancient law dictates that when a willing victim who has committed no treachery is killed in the traitor’s place, that death will work backwards and restore the life of the innocent victim. Aslan then deals with the wicked Witch, and all of Narnia lives happily ever after – especially Edmund, the wayward boy whose life was saved by the innocent Lion.

I suppose that this can be called an "entertaining" fiction, with "valuable" lessons; but my question still remains: Why would a Church, a Christian Church, use such materials for "evangelism;" and "telling people about Jesus?" And why would anyone want to so vehemently denounce "the chosen" for not approving of The Narnia HubBub as not "getting down to business?" And for those

choosing to so denounce what they call "the chosen;" I wonder what they are really saying about themselves? Are they not part of the "chosen ones?" If not; who are they?

Can these Narnia Chronicles really be called "Christian?" Is Narnia really a good idea for "evangelism;" with all it's elements of fantasy, magic and enchantment?

[Pockey]

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calgary_guy said:

Can these Narnia Chronicles really be called "Christian?" Is Narnia really a good idea for "evangelism;" with all it's elements of fantasy, magic and enchantment?

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Sure why not? I think it's a wonderful conversation starter with someone who is not familiar with Jesus. It's a great way to *introduce* people about Jesus.

[Planey]

If you read a plot synopsis of "Pilgrim's Progress" you might feel it has some fantastic elements in as well and make similar comments as to why would you not just tell peolpe the "real" story?

Dave, both "Pilgrim's Progress" and the Narnia Chronicles fall into the general category of Allegory, much in the same way as much of Jesus' parables fall into this category. They can be very efficient ways of getting across a message to an audience that may not be easily reached in other ways.

Graeme

[there buster]

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I suppose that this can be called an "entertaining" fiction, with "valuable" lessons; but my question still remains: Why would a Church, a Christian Church, use such materials for "evangelism;" and "telling people about Jesus?"

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Only because they actually reach a large audience, unlike current methods which only reach 3-4% of our audience. But we'll keep sinking money into those methods rather than try new approaches.

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And why would anyone want to so vehemently denounce "the chosen" for not approving of The Narnia HubBub as not "getting down to business?"

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Vehemence is in the eye of the beholder. The point is this. The rocks only cry out because the chosen are silent. As noted, we are effectively silent for 96-97% of the NA audience.It's not just Narnia, it's a string of movies over the last ten years or more. It's rock groups making CD's about the legend of Longinus, the Roman soldier at the cross who declared, "this was the Son of God."

Popular culture is feeding a hunger, or they wouldn't be making money at this. We may disagree with how they're feeding it, but if we were feeding it, they wouldn't have to.

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And for those

choosing to so denounce what they call "the chosen;" I wonder what they are really saying about themselves? Are they not part of the "chosen ones?" If not; who are they?

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Note: the words were spoken by Jesus, so I guess all your speculations would have to apply to Him.

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Can these Narnia Chronicles really be called "Christian?" Is Narnia really a good idea for "evangelism;" with all it's elements of fantasy, magic and enchantment?

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Yes. Similar questions have been asked about Song of Solomon, the Epistle of James, and a number of other books. Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation look like fantasy, magic, and enchantment to many secular people.

There are always the "little battalions" doing what needs to be done. And often they are battling the established church in order to accomplish anything. That's never been more true than today.

Robert Logan, church planter and planting coach, said at Seeds '96, '97, and (I think) 2000: "The sign in front of most churches should say, "Go to hell. We don't care."

It seemed a little strong to me at the time. No more. For example, we can't publish books designed to reach contemporary audiences because the not enough of the membership will support anything that doesn't use the KJV and EGW.

At the same time, our publishing houses will "print" books that the reading committee rejects because they're unscriptural, but they sell like hotcakes to the faithful.

So, yes. Call it denunciation if you choose, I call it diagnosis. Collectively, we're wasting time on debates that don't matter while lost people go wanting.

The stones are crying out. We might not like the sound, but, if we weren't effectively silent, they wouldn't be crying out.

[Neil D]

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es. Similar questions have been asked about Song of Solomon, the Epistle of James, and a number of other books. Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation look like fantasy, magic, and enchantment to many secular people.

There are always the "little battalions" doing what needs to be done. And often they are battling the established church in order to accomplish anything. That's never been more true than today.

Robert Logan, church planter and planting coach, said at Seeds '96, '97, and (I think) 2000: "The sign in front of most churches should say, "Go to hell. We don't care."

It seemed a little strong to me at the time. No more. For example, we can't publish books designed to reach contemporary audiences because the not enough of the membership will support anything that doesn't use the KJV and EGW.

At the same time, our publishing houses will "print" books that the reading committee rejects because they're unscriptural, but they sell like hotcakes to the faithful.

So, yes. Call it denunciation if you choose, I call it diagnosis. Collectively, we're wasting time on debates that don't matter while lost people go wanting.

The stones are crying out. We might not like the sound, but, if we weren't effectively silent, they wouldn't be crying out.

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Be careful, Ed....You've voiced many things that I have in the past...you might be called "Neil" by mistake...

[there buster]

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Be careful, Ed.....you might be called "Neil" by mistake..

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Truly a "sign of the end."

[Guest]

Sorry Ed

I have no problems *introducing* anyone to Jesus with the Bible; and that includes children.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the problem is not with using the Bible; but with the people who prefer fairy tales of witches, and other things which the Bible condemns? I believe that is why we are not "reaching" people the way you say we should be in NA. I'd sure like to see how many people you actually "reach" with this mixed up stuff. You obviously don't understand the way such movies as Narnia would be perceived by children either. Unless they are old enough to utilize logical thinking; which adults are supposed to be able to do, they will not be able to always see the right from the wrong in this movie.

To use a non-Christian movie to "tell" people about Jesus, only sells a lot of movies. It does not do what our "progressive" church members such as yourself proffer. Other stuff like this has come along before; and you won't be able to show us even 2 dozen people that came to Jesus, joined the Church, and are still in the church because of this kind of fodder. Obviously large crowds will be attracted to this movie; it is not Christian.

Your 'diagnoses' of the Church is obviously skewed with popular mantra that never goes anywhere.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa.5:20

[Neil D]

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To use a non-Christian movie to "tell" people about Jesus, only sells a lot of movies. It does not do what our "progressive" church members such as yourself proffer. Other stuff like this has come along before; and you won't be able to show us even 2 dozen people that came to Jesus, joined the Church, and are still in the church because of this kind of fodder. Obviously large crowds will be attracted to this movie; it is not Christian.

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I don't believe what I am seeing...I am truely amazed at what is said here...That Ed is 'progressive'...Whoa! That is heady stuff...

Cyber-guy, you need to direct those comments over here. **I** am the liberal here on this board. Ed is far more in your conservative camp than I am and you are only shooting your own conservative campmate.

For your information, what Ed is saying is really quite practical. It is called "meeting the needs of the people where they are at"....And it works...Unfortunately, our own people are hampered by taboo and prophetic mythical forebiddences that have taken the heart out of evangelism. You traditionalists want the world to meet you where you are at. Unfortunately, the world wants nothing to do with Adventistism...and yet it hungers and thirsts for the very heart of the Adventist message. Currently, there is an undercurrent in the Adventist church that is meeting in people's homes and studying and they are inviting only a select few. Traditional adventists are not usually invited as they are a damper on those meetings. And they approve of things like "The Chronicles of Narnia", "Lord of the Rings" and the Perilanda Chronicles [that will show up eventually] as the allegorys tend to spur bible study and discussion and fellowship. True, they can not be the things that cause the church baptism to spike, but they are another tool in the arsenel of our Lord to cause to wonder about God and to "taste and see that the Lord is good".

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Your 'diagnoses' of the Church is obviously skewed with popular mantra that never goes anywhere.

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I must assume that you are a traditionalist, and insist that traditional methods be used to bring people to the Lord and that you do not want the church to change attitudes, claiming that such change lowers the standards of the church. What you do not realize, sir, is that your church is already changing and is already changed and you are left out.

If you wish to keep your church without becoming bitter, I suggest that you fellowship with it, instead of canablizing people of your own calibur...

Oh, and Ed, excuse me for stepping in front of you and letting this man see a real liberal. I see no reason for you to be mislabled....

[there buster]

Actually, Dave, I spend virtually all my time working with contemporary audiences.

While sharing these last several posts, I've been on deadline for LIFE.info, our primary outreach magazine for contemporary people.

Along with my articles for SIGNS, the Review, and several other of our magazines, I'm a church planter, working with contemporary people every day. I have plenty of first-hand experience on who's reaching whom.

So, yes, I've considered what the real problems may be.

Micah says that Elijah will "turn the hearts of the fathers to the children." That indicates that the fathers' hearts are turned elsewhere.

The church at large, and SDA's in particular, can't decide whether their comfort is more or less important than the lost. That's the consequences of Laodicea.

The scriptural parallels are numerous. It's the older brother who objects to the return of the prodigals. And so on. If you don't see it, you're not part of the solution.

Gotta go now. More deadlines loom.

[Guest]

Hi Ed

I am not really thinking "comfort level:" stuff here at all; and I am sure a long ways from a "traditonal" type. And, when I called you "progressive;" I didn't mean what Neil the "conservative" has just spouted off about. I called you "progressive" because of the way you go outside the box, if you will to reach people where they are at. Which is in most cases, a really good thing. And, I can maybe even see, in the odd case where this movie Narnia could be used as an ice-breaker type deal to establish a connection with someone; but don't we have to have some guidelines as to what we call "Christian?" This is not a Christian movie; it is filled with spiritualism themes, and a little bit of "allegory Jesus" sprinkled in to make it "real." I am simply a little taken aback at how people are getting so enthused about calling this movie "Christian."

You and I both work with "contemporary" people but in different ways; as the Lord sees fit to open to us; and you & I are both well aware of the same problems in our Church. What's there to deny in both of these areas, as far as the problems presented?? But I think we need to get away from the stereotyping of church members on either side of the fence here.

I see your responses here as stereotyping "conservatives;" and making sport of them in a way that is unwarranted for the subject at hand. If you think this is a good movie to use for reaching people; why blast all those who may be opposed to it the way you have, in order to make that point? The Narnia movie should be able to stand on it's own merits if it is so good. I know you call it "diagnoses;" but I have seen many doctors misdiagnose in my nursing career! When the patient keeps getting sicker and sicker inspite of "treatment;" then they finally figure it out.

Many "conservatives" in and out of the Church are winning people to Christ. It takes all kinds to reach all kinds. You do not give them a fair shake.

AND IF YOU OR NEIL EVER CALL ME TRADITIONALIST OR ANYTHING LIKE IT AGAIN; i'LL YELL AT YOU ON THE INTERNET!! :icon-rant:

[Neil D]

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I didn't mean what Neil the "conservative" has just spouted off about

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Oh my goodness,...someone has thrown the water of "conservative-ness" upon me...I'm dying, I'm dying ...I'm dying.....

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AND IF YOU OR NEIL EVER CALL ME TRADITIONALIST OR ANYTHING LIKE IT AGAIN; i'LL YELL AT YOU ON THE INTERNET!! :icon-rant:

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Gee, I'd like to see that....David...you are a "TRADITIONALIST "

Wait, wait, Wait a minute...let me get the fire retardent asbestosis underware on...after all, gotta save the family, so to speak...Ok, David, I am ready.

Let'er rip!

[Guest]

Neil: You are a bit funny. I'd like to be a fly on the wall and see you trying to read this:

[Amelia]

That would be easier to read if it were going counter clock wise. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/tongue1.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

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calgary_guy said:

I have no problems *introducing* anyone to Jesus with the Bible; and that includes children.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the problem is not with using the Bible; but with the people who prefer fairy tales of witches, and other things which the Bible condemns? I believe that is why we are not "reaching" people the way you say we should be in NA. I'd sure like to see how many people you actually "reach" with this mixed up stuff. You obviously don't understand the way such movies as Narnia would be perceived by children either. Unless they are old enough to utilize logical thinking; which adults are supposed to be able to do, they will not be able to always see the right from the wrong in this movie. [

long stuff snipped]

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Good grief, who is this guy? Is this still the voice of the majority in SDA-ism? Ei-yei-yei ...

[Nicodema]

Mr. Ed Dickerson! We haven't always agreed on everything in the past, and probably aren't likely to agree on everything in the future, but all I gots to say is: when you're right, you're RIGHT.

And boy, are you right! about this one.

[Guest]

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Nicodema said:

Good grief, who is this guy?

Is this still the voice of the majority in SDA-ism? Ei-yei-yei ...

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It would be better to just answer my questions/concerns here with a verifiable fact or two. Hope you have a nice day...:)