The Stones are Crying Out

[Nicodema]

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Aliensanctuary said:

We should be really careful not to throw mud at each other, but deal with conflicts like Jesus did ... We have to keep looking up at the stars, for that's where help is coming from. There's no good time for mudslinging or nitpicking, because, there will be no mud fights or nitpicking in God's Kingdom. True Christians will only say and do good things to others, encouraging them to uphold the basic principles of God's Kingdom.

Endless arguments convince no one, drive away seekers of truth, and align us with the forces of evil.

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Totally off topic and has nothing to do with this particular thread:

AlienSanctuary -- the words from your quote above which I have placed in bold text -- would you say the same issue about "endless arguments" exists when the method is constant gainsaying, "last-word standoffing", and pedantic nit-picking as well as when it is personal mudslingy stuff?

Just wondering. I recently had an incident with someone else where my attempts to try to encourage them to stop exhibiting a combative, argumentative attitude in the vein I reference above resulted in their perception that I was slinging mud and making "personal attacks". Which as far as my intent is concerned, I was not -- but I'm wondering if both are included in your indictment above, because personally I find a combative, pedantic redundancy and insistence that one's view prevail no more effective a method or holier an attitude than that of ad hominem mudballs.

OK,

[Guest]

Allright - at risk of me being off topic...

Nicodema; I know all the other words you used here; except "ad hominem mudballs." What are they?

[Aliensanctuary]

Pardon me, Nico, for butting in.

ad hominem:

1. appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect

2. Marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

You're probably right, Nico. By trying to fix what I thought was a problem, I become the boogey man. Really, I'm no match for the highly-educated intellectuals here. Let me show you how many degrees I have: 00000. Like you, I was trying to address the problem of apparent rudeness and incivility. One person thanks me for trying to say it in a nice way, the other limps off, wounded.

I like both parties, Ed and David. I do apologize for any wounded feelings resulting from my posts.

I would also like to thank Ed for initiating this discussion. Using secular material to evangelize is something I had not considered previously. I wish him the best in all of his projects.

I also wish the best for David, and trust that he will always be there for his lads, especially in the frigid Canadian winters, to keep them warm, and true to God.

[Guest]

Hey, thanks for the "ad hominem" definition. At first; I thought it might be some new side dish at Le Chemiere... I guess I would have to word my reply like this:

Now; first a word of caution/warning. Please don't tell anyone what I am about to say; but I watched a "secular" movie last week with my lads. In it, two opponents were fighting - basically to the death - in a chariot race.

Near the end of this movie, the opponent who had lost was fatally injured in the race; and as his opponent stood over the battered form of his once strong lithe body; "Messalah" said: "There is still enough of your enemy here for you to hate..." To which Ben-Hur replied: "I see no enemy."

Like-wise; I see no "ad hominems" here.

(TBC)

[LifeHiscost]

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Ed Dickerson said:

I started this thread to celebrate that God was using secular means to reach people we're ignoring. I have witnessed that. It seemed likely that some people might be encouraged by that, and even want to understand how that's happening.

Instead, I've encountered skepticism, cynicism, "mudslinging and nitpicking," and obstructionism. I've tried to respond to questions, thinking people really wanted to understand.

So, you go on doing what you've been doing, happy in the knowledge that I'm mistaken.

I'll continue to do what I believe the Lord has called me to do. I will expend every effort to see to it that there's a church my children and grandchildren gladly attend. The bleeding has to stop somewhere.

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I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, Ed, so I can't tell how many naysayers there may have been. However I can tell you I agree with your conclusion as found in your words, [:"green"] 'I started this thread to celebrate that God was using secular means to reach people'[/].

There are plenty of examples I might give from illustrious as well as notorious sources, but it has been my experience that using just the real circumstances to convey the message often has little affect in the mind of the person(s)who have a great deal of dogmatism influencing their mindset. Therefore I choose to use the Scripture to point out the reality. However since some do not believe when context is not included, and others do not believe if it seems not to agree with what they have already concluded, I leave it to the Holy Spirit to convince the mind of that which is true, whether there are some who believe it or not.

[:"red"] "And it hath come to pass afterwards, I do pour out My Spirit on all flesh, And prophesied have your sons and your daughters, Your old men do dream dreams, Your young men do see visions." [/] Joel 2:28 YLT

[:"red"] "And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;" [/] Acts 2:17 YLT

Somewhere in the Holy Bible it speaks of a people called by the name of the Lord whereas before they were not known as His (Yahweh). It does not surprise me, considering the times we are living, that a people would exist carrying the garments of the righteousness of Jesus though not known of men as such..

[:"red"] "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." [/] Romans 10:3 KJV

[:"red"] "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" [/] Philippians 3:9 KJV

Keep the faith!!

[there buster]

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Let us just witness here to our "unity in diversity;" and continue our topic. If you are in agreement with this, in principle; please say yea; or nea, and I will be glad to post a short one or two paragraph summary of points I am interested in continuing to explore here with you or other forum participants who may be interested.

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O.K. I want to make it clear I'm neither hurt nor angry. It's simply a matter of how much time I should invest.

Secondly, let me share a little more about myself. I'm 55 years old. My children are a son 29 (tomorrow), a daughter,25, and a daughter 22. My son is married to a beautiful Christian woman who became an Adventis through our church plant. They have given us 2 2/3 grandchildren.

My daughters are BOTH getting married this calendar year. One's fiancee is the young man who wept at the Chronicles of Narnia movie.

This last Sabbath, we saw him begin almost visibly to heal from the wounds that his traditional SDA church and family inflicted on him. His first words to me several months ago were, "I don't care much for pastors." Since I am the lay pastor of our church, he was warning me. For a while he was quite cool to church. But after a few weeks he began asking how he could "witness" to one of his former Marine buddies. It's been amazing to watch him heal.

My 25YO's fiance ceased attending church for a while before he met her, because of what I call it's toxicity. They spend Sabbath evenings with us now "for the modeling."

When my children were growing up, the toxic church we then attended had all the proof texts about what I was doing was wrong.

My son was one of three young men, all within 18 months of the same age, who grew up together in that church. The other families followed the traditional path. We did not. My training, experience, and my spiritual gift told me that what was happening at the church was damaging, especially to the children.

Now these three young men are grown. Neither of the other two want anything to do with the church they grew up in. One has told my son he will never attend there again. The other one rarely does, and when he does he keeps his head down (literally) and doesn't participate. He shows up because his mother wants him to.

My son is active and enthusiastic about the SDA church. All of my children see the flaws, but understand that the local conference is not the SDA church. Speaking of our church plant, he said, "This is a place where my 2YO rejoices to come, and everyone rejoices with her. Where else could I find that?"

My daughters friends fared evern worse. Several have been unwed or barely wed mothers. Two have children by multiple fathers. One is married to a convict who is in and out of jail. Another is going through a divorce. None of them have the least interest in the church, except recently one has been corresponding with us.

When these kids were growing up, everyone warned me that I was making terrible mistakes. They were not open to any help at all. It breaks my heart to see the pain these young people are going through, and knowing that it didn't have to be.

Not only were the outcomes predictable, they were virtually inevitable. And still these practices and attitudes continue.

The Elijah message speaks of "Turning the hearts of the fathers to the children." It follows, inescapably, that the fathers' hearts must have been focused somewhere else.

In the last thirty years, I have tried to help people see what they're doing to their churches, and to their children. Most people don't want to see. They're more concerned with being perceived as good parents than with actually being good parents.

I'm not speaking about anyone on this thread. I'm speaking about the people I've known and worked with my entire adult life.

The church is paying a terrible price. There's almost no one in the 19-35 age group attending, except in large Adventist centers. In the 80% of the church outside those centers, the boomers left years ago. The remaining X-ers have left, and the children will follow when they come of age.

But the greates price is being paid by the parents of those children I mentioned earlier. Embittered by their treatment in the church, indifferent to attending at best, and paying a price in their personal lives, as well, these young people are a constant heartache to their parents. They would not listen then, and now their children aren't interested in discussing the matters closest to their hearts.

I do not claim to have a perfect life, or to have done everything right. The older I get, the more clearly my own mistakes appear to me, and the greater God's grace in protecting my children seems to me.

That said, it's now quite clear that our approach worked, left more room for the power of God, than the others.

In my work with hundreds of families, I have found two basic groups. One group uses their children to meet eheir own needs. The other group does everything they can to meet their children's needs.

I've had prominent church leaders, men and women whose names you would recognize, come to me about their children.

One well-known pastor cannot understand why his daughter who was "my star until she failed me," is burned out on church. Or why his oldest son became addicted to drugs. If he had asked me years before, I could have told him what he was headed for. It was as predictable as gravity.

"Contemporary people" are as they are because of the failure of the generation before them. Divorce and abortion are the skeletons at their pitiful feast. As one has said, "Ours is a world where inconvenient lives are aborted and inconvenient loves are abandoned." And she goes on to say, "So you're in quite a pickle: you can't tell us that the Church has "the Truth," and we know that the Church won't miraculously cure us of our misery."

Now many of the same people who caused the problem object to any means that might remedy it. We read Phillppians 4 backwards. Not "If there be any virtue. . .think on these things." Instead, we read it as, "If there be any flaws dwell on these and reject it!

Nothing human is flawless. And that includes the Bible.

[Nicodema]

And on that note ... Ed are you aware that there is a hard-core rock band out there called "Avenged Sevenfold" who has a song out now called "Beast and Harlot"?? Google the lyrics if your curiosity is piqued. It's downright ... apocalyptic.

Truly the stones are crying out indeed!

[Nicodema]

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Aliensanctuary said:

You're probably right, Nico. By trying to fix what I thought was a problem, I become the boogey man. Really, I'm no match for the highly-educated intellectuals here. Let me show you how many degrees I have: 00000. Like you, I was trying to address the problem of apparent rudeness and incivility. One person thanks me for trying to say it in a nice way, the other limps off, wounded.

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Hey Alien, I didn't intend my post to be a rebuke to you. Like I said, it was prompted by events on another thread. I don't have any degrees either -- not that it matters but at least knowing that you won't feel so alone, I hope? I didn't see where you became the boogyman, wha'd I miss?

*hug* Happy Sabbath ...

[Guest]

Quote by Ed

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The Elijah message speaks of "Turning the hearts of the fathers to the children." It follows, inescapably, that the fathers' hearts must have been focused somewhere else.

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Hello Ed & Happy Sabbath to you & your's!

I can see we are getting somewhere here - inspite of our different ways of seeing some things. While I was welding away for 10 hours yesterday; I thought a lot about this topic; and this text kept coming to me over & over. If that is not the Holy Spirit speaking the same thing to 2 different people; I don't know what is. Some would think to themselves - "How can he get any "inspiration" when he is welding in a dirty old metal shop?" But, I can also see that you & I actually are in agreement, that God does find ways to speak, in the most unusual circumstances.

Ed; I was a Lay Pastor for two years; and am still an ordained Elder, (non-active), and I can really relate to the unfortunate state of affairs as you have related to us from the churches in your area/experience. It's very discouraging to look at all that.

I am joining you this nice, wintery Sabbath day with warm thoughts of praise for how God has worked in your family!!

And He is working like that in mine too. My kids are a little younger than your's; but last night, they were both, literally begging me to go to Church today!! Another thing to praise the Lord for; but also, it creates a question or three in my mind!!

I am sorry; I will have to wait till a future post to continue though as I need to go and get ready to go...I am glad you shared some testimony here Ed; it has made a big difference to see better where you are coming from.

[there buster]

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are you aware that there is a hard-core rock band out there called "Avenged Sevenfold" who has a song out now called "Beast and Harlot"??

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No. Rock is not my personal preference. But I'll ask my expert-- 22YO daughter.

Here are some things I am aware of:

A group called "Switchfoot" which had a big hit with these lyrics:

"Meant To Live"

Fumbling his confidence

And wondering why the world has passed him by

Hoping that he's bent for more than arguments

And failed attempts to fly, fly

[Chorus]

We were meant to live for so much more

Have we lost ourselves?

Somewhere we live inside

Somewhere we live inside

We were meant to live for so much more

Have we lost ourselves?

Somewhere we live inside

Dreaming about Providence

And whether mice or men have second tries

Maybe we've been livin with our eyes half open

Maybe we're bent and broken, broken

[Chorus]

We want more than this world's got to offer

We want more than this world's got to offer

We want more than the wars of our fathers

And everything inside screams for second life, yeah

We were meant to live for so much more

Have we lost ourselves?

We were meant to live for so much more

Have we lost ourselves?

We were meant to live for so much more

Have we lost ourselves?

We were meant to live

We were meant to live

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Of course, that's not the whole gospel. But what a great first step (see Engel scale)

And there's a group called "Glass Hammer" that had an entire album ("Lex Rex") devoted to the legend of Longinus, the Centurion who said, "Surely this is the Son of God."

There are many more examples.

shalom Shabbat!

[Aliensanctuary]

Whew!

Maybe it was just my imagination, but I was thinking this great idea for a topic had just gone to ... (the wind).

I think there's something basically wrong with our custom of "going to church". I don't know about anyone else, but I suffer whenever I attend. I think it's the structure, too impersonal, and the sense of wasted time. So obviously, I rarely attend.

I would really prefer to get together with a small group, mainly to exchange ideas. I haven't had any close friends for years, and it's something I really wish I had. Close friends you study with can challenge your ideas in a nice way and make you try to explain what you believe. They can also hold you accountable in case you feel tempted to do something you know you shouldn't.

(adventistforum.com is really the first opportunity I've had to share some ideas. Maybe my ideas in DA are way out, maybe not. I at least enjoy being able to share them. I do wish the DA study was more than just a 1 man effort at present, though. What am I doing wrong?)

So there are few basic principles small churches and small groups should follow. I can only think of three at this moment.

Friendship:

Few people will be interested in joining any church without friends. Not the "Hi, How are you" casual greeting kind of friends. People need real friends who know you and your family and what's going on in your life. They need to do things together beyond the meeting days. Community projects, nursing home visits, prison visits, etc.

Study:

Everyone needs to be on the same page, basically, or there will not be peace and unity. Maybe some people will initially skip the Friendship stage to cold-call visit your group/church to see if they like it. There would need to be a lot of creativity in the meetings in order to interest all ages. Meetings would need to be short and to the point, and tailored to the needs of children and youth, too. (I have a few misgivings about using the Simpson’s as an ice-breaker. Last time I saw them they were rather vulgar. Maybe there’s a good side to them.)

Action:

With every small church or small group there should be action. An inward directed group or church will slowly shrivel up and die unless it becomes outward directed, seeking new members to replace those who have moved on.

Plus, there must be something worthwhile occurring within the church/group for any outsider to be interested in attending, beyond the initial friendship stage.

……………

I think all of the SDA churches should just close their doors and instead form small churches and small groups. They can all follow the above-mentioned steps to create a loose network of SDA home churches, that can, hopefully, meet more people’s needs. People will continue to fall through the cracks in all of the bigger churches so maybe it's time to get rid of the big church mentality.

One thing necessary though, each group would need a core of converted and committed members. Without that, no group will be successful. Plus, membership in any church does not necessarily mean you're a member of Gods' Kingdom.

So the SDA Church has some serious problems. Can Narnia or the Simpson’s save it?

[Aliensanctuary]

The small church/group idea will probably create as many problems as it might solve. The real trouble is, we don’t have a religion worth dying for. In other words, no matter what denomination we belong to, our religion must teach us that we must purify ourselves and repent of all of our wrongs, then Jesus will remove the sins from our life record and we can die unafraid of the Judgment.

If our consciences are clear, then we can be worthy teachers/leaders. Otherwise, our efforts will sooner or later be polluted with selfishness, insensitivity, and impurity, and our efforts to create a reasonably perfect church will fall far short.

[there buster]

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So the SDA Church has some serious problems. Can Narnia or the Simpson’s save it?

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Such statements are needlessly offensive. They do not assist the discussion.

Let me ask you. Did anyone seriously suggest that either Narnia or the Simpson's could "save the church?"

I certainly didn't.

Now, if you actually want to discuss what might be done, that's one thing. But that was a cheap shot.

[LifeHiscost]

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Aliensanctuary said:

our religion must teach us that we must purify ourselves and repent of all of our wrongs, then Jesus will remove the sins from our life record and we can die unafraid of the Judgment.

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I recognize your intent to encourage, alien, but find it is not we who can pull ourselves up to be purified. And while repentance is also good, it(repentance)comes from the Source of our salvation, not as an adjunct for Him to connect.

[:"red"] "I am the vine, you are the branches;.... for apart from Me you can do nothing. " [/] John 15:5 NASB

[:"red"] "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." [/] Acts 5:31 KJV

[:"red"] "When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners." [/] Romans 5:6 NLT

[Guest]

Good Evening Ed!

I agree. You did not say that Narnia or Simpsons could save the Church.

I think what you said was how that we cannot avoid using such "pagan" symbolism, in atleast some of our evangelism?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I am formulating a more suitable reply to a few things you said above; but, in the meantime; I do have a question or so to run by you.

Have you seen the Revised Engel Scale of moral development? What do you see as the major differences?

I think that this kind of study/info re Engel Scale types of approaches may be problematic with some of the "real" Adventists, as in the case of Engel; it originates from The Billy Graham Asociation. This, however, should be no different than listening to any SDA person. We still need to filter out the good, the bad, and the ugly from them too. (1 Thes.5:21). Sometimes; as much as we hate to admit it; "the people of God" do prefer to hold fast to deceit. (Jer.8:5). Those who are atleast aiming in the right direction should not be ignored, just because they are not "one of us."

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CED.052.002

God does not ignore ignorant men, but if they are connected with Christ, if they are sanctified through the truth, they will be constantly gathering knowledge. By exerting every power to glorify God, they will have increased power with which to glorify him. But those who are willing to remain in a narrow channel because God condescended to accept them when they were there, are very foolish; and yet there are hundreds and thousands who are doing this very thing. God has given them the living machinery, and this needs to be used daily in order for the mind to reach higher and still higher attainments. It is a shame that many link ignorance with humility, and that with all the qualities God has given us for education, so great a number are willing to remain in the same low position that they were in when the truth first reached them. They do not grow mentally; they are no better fitted and prepared to do great and good works than when they first heard the truth.

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What I am finding though, as I look into this subject more is that anyone like Engel and associates, who is doing a great work seems to be in some way, focusing on a semblance of the Isaiah 50:4 communication model. This, IMHO, is always a step in the right direction. This text in Isaiah is quite shocking when understood correctly. It echoes a lot of things that Engel does.

I am not yet decided though, just how much the Engel Scale would match up with the Romans 12:1-2 model of gospel communications...Stuff to think about I guess.

To me; the Bible relates a number of different, yet connected models for gospel communication; which must be combined; according to the nature of the individual, or target group.

I do want to address more things like Narnia, Simpsons; etc., but that is for another day. Guys "my age" are not supposed to be up this late!!

[Nicodema]

David what on EARTH is growing out of your coffee cup???

[Guest]

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Nicodema said:

David what on EARTH is growing out of your coffee cup???

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What makes you think it's "Coffee?"

[Aliensanctuary]

I'm sorry.

[there buster]

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Have you seen the Revised Engel Scale of moral development? What do you see as the major differences?

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Two points.

1. Engel's original title was "Spiritual Decision Makeing," which is quite different from moral develoopment. Engel is not saying these are stages of moral developoment or character maturation. They are simply steps we take from being angostic to being converted. To the degree that he addresses moral development, it is in the stages after conversion.

2. I have seen several adaptation's of the Engel scale. In the end, they simply add credibility to the original.

Engel's history is interesting. He was a Madison Avenue marketing expert, then taught marketing at Ohio State before he became a Christian. After that, he moved to Wheaton College, and applied his expertise to Christianity.

The Engel scale is not intended to be a discipling model, nor does it go into motivation. It simply tracks the choices that must be made in order to become a Christian.

It is more like an itinerary than a map. And even a map doesn't descirbe either the means of transportation or the experience on the journey.

The Engel scale is a tool, pure and simple. Either it's useful or it's not. Expecting or claiming more from it--even by way of critique--is a mistake.

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Those who are atleast aiming in the right direction should not be ignored, just because they are not "one of us."

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Even secular sources can be helpful. We forget that "The people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light." Luke 16:8

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Romans 12:1-2 model of gospel communications. Isaiah 50:4 communication model.

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Those passages are not intended as "communications models."

The solution to your difficulties appears to be exegetical.

[lazarus]

Hey Ed I was interested in many of the things you said in your post, partly becasue I am a Youth Pastor and also I am the father of young children.

I can see the truth of much of what you are saying. I would like you to elaborate a bit on some things u said if u can. I simply want to see things from your experience.

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Ed Dickerson said:

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When these kids were growing up, everyone warned me that I was making terrible mistakes. They were not open to any help at all. It breaks my heart to see the pain these young people are going through, and knowing that

it didn't have to be.

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What mistakes did people think u were making?

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And still these practices and attitudes continue.........In the last thirty years, I have tried to help people see what they're doing to their churches, and to their children.

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What practices and attitudes , and what were they doing to their churches?

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That said, it's now quite clear that our approach worked, left more room for the power of God, than the others.

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You may have answered this already but what was your approach?

[there buster]

lazarus, it's difficult to address your questions in a short posting.

I have about 5 workshops I give on these subjects, totalling many hours. Like most of the really important things in life, the basic concepts are simple, but not easy.

Let me start with a few ideas. First, we often teach children terrible things. In my field, Religious Education, one of the things we spend a lot of time looking at is how to teach children about God in ways that we won't have to "un-teach" later.

One of the biggest ways we violate this is to use God to back up our authority as parents (I could go on for hours about what that authority actually consists of).

I remember one young girl at about 10 years of age, the same age as my middle daughter and one of her friends, explaining how it was a sin for girls to wear pants. When I inquired what she was wearing (looked like pants to me) she explained that "boys pants had a zipper in front." Since her slacks had the zipper on the side, they were not sinful pants.

You may think that extreme, but i encounter similar legalistic hair-splitting all the time. In fact, this thread has more than a little on it, the attempt to enlist God on the side of our opinions. Indeed, many have come to the point they can't distinguish between a verse of the Scripture and their own opinion, else they would not throw verses around so carelessly.

It really comes down to manipulation and lack of authenticity. Instead of nurturing children, we use them. We pose as what we are not. And this also carries over into "soulwinning," into our treatment of young Christians.

How's that for a start?

[lazarus]

Thanks Ed.

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It really comes down to manipulation and lack of authenticity. Instead of nurturing children, we use them. We pose as what we are not. And this also carries over into "soulwinning," into our treatment of young Christians.

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These words resonate with me the most. I have seen an inability for churches to embrace their own children. On a basic level...talk to them, include them, provide for their needs listen to them. When I say we need to do more for our children they say "well we give x amount of dollars, that shows we care" I see it more ith the teens in the church and braks my heart and it makes me feel as if I want to quit and do my own thing (church/youth ministry) because I don't want my own boys seeing and experiencing what my teens see and feel.

[Michelle]

Yes, I have seen this in our schools as well--dealing with high school/jr. high kids.

A recent example here at our college. A group of (non-sda) students wanted to plan a dance for the students of the college. Rather than taking any time to discuss this and explain why it would not be appropriate, the administrator in charge simply said, no, the Bible forbids dancing.

One of the students came up to my DH and asked, "Does the Bible really forbid dancing?" My DH took the time to discuss the issues with him--what "kind" of dancing is referred to in the Bible, and is that the kind of dancing that would be done at the college, etc? The student completely understood the issues and agreed that the dance should not be held at the school.

Why did it have to go to this length? Why did the administrator not take the time (I think that's the key--time) to discuss this issue with the students? I have seen this again and again. "We" (the church--I try not to include myself in that "we" but I probably am guilty of it sometimes) are afraid of letting people use their God-given powers of thinking and decision making, because "they" might ask questions "we" are not wanting to discuss.

Having taught mostly in schools where most of the students were non-SDA/non-Christian, I have learned more how to listen and discuss (or try to discuss) issues that are raised. I have learned that in many, many cases, young people "test" the authority adults to see how much they are willing to get into the issues. In almost every situation, I've had students who will ask me very explicit questions of a touchy nature, watching carefully to see how I deal with them. I say a quick silent prayer and dive in with them. After this, they see that I am willing to engage with them and they will ask what they REALLY want to know. But, had I responded "incorrectly," I would never have known what lay underneath.

I think of David McQueen's questions on this forum. Those are exactly the kind of questions that make many people cringe. "Why can't you just let "us" do the thinking for you? Why must you think for yourself?" That is what it boils down to. (IMHO)

M

[Clio]

This is the same text from several translations, which seems to fit this discussion perfectly.

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NKJV 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the *law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without *law toward God, but under *law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became *as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NLT19 This means I am not bound to obey people just because they pay me, yet I have become a servant of everyone so that I can bring them to Christ. 20 When I am with the Jews, I become one of them so that I can bring them to Christ. When I am with those who follow the Jewish laws, I do the same, even though I am not subject to the law, so that I can bring them to Christ. 21 When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law,* I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

22 When I am with those who are oppressed, I share their oppression so that I might bring them to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone so that I might bring them to Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NASB For though I am free from all {men,} I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

The thing that stands out, is by all means save some.

[Nicodema]

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Michelle said:

I've had students who will ask me very explicit questions of a touchy nature, watching carefully to see how I deal with them. I say a quick silent prayer and dive in with them. After this, they see that I am willing to engage with them and they will ask what they REALLY want to know. But, had I responded "incorrectly," I would never have known what lay underneath.

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It isn't just kids and "students" who do this ... some of us with lifelong trust issues -- who, if I might be frank here, are not exactly seeing a plethora of reasons or people queueing up to provide a "healing reversal" of all that -- use similar devices to "test the ground" with others and see whether the risk is truly worth the investment or whether, yet once again, we will be disappointed and go away kicking ourselves for being so stupid, naive, and "needy."

Just a public service announcement .... you know ..... in case there happen to be those out there WORTH knowing this for......