The Stones are Crying Out

[there buster]

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what does a church service at your church look like? From the moment a newcomer walks into your church, what does he/she see? Encounter? Hear? And then three months down the road, what is he/she learning? How? What kind of discipling is going on?

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I'm glad to do that, but for you to understand what our target audience sees when they come, you have to understand how they see the world in the first place.

[]http://www.sapdesignguild.org/resources/optical_illusions/images/women.gif[/]

Young woman or old hag?

And FYI, I've put calgary_guy on ignore. If someone else thinks he's made a useful comment that I need to see, they'll have to relay it.

[Guest]

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“And FYI, I've put calgary_guy on ignore. If someone else thinks he's made a useful comment that I need to see, they'll have to relay it.”

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It looks like Jadis' “world of eternal winter” is in fact alive and well in certain circles. Churches who choose to develop a Contemporary Theology system and approach; drowning out other views in the process, often do resort to putting others on ignore who come into their churches and do not fit their program; or move along their pre-designed steps, to their given religious prescriptions. I am thankful that there are some Contemporary Churches and approaches who would never freeze people out, just because they don't fit. Yes; contemporary approaches like Ed's can and do bring them in the front doors fast; but has anyone checked the back doors to compare the speeds of people going out there? Too many people are frozen out of church participation; just because of the way they think or perceive. Psychiatric approaches to this polarization with cliché inkblot diagrams like “old hag or young woman” are very suggestive; and really do not get to the heart of the matter at all; in helping people to decide if Narnia or Simpsons is a good choice for “evangelism.” Only the Bible can make a fair comparison here; no amount of personal degradation to myself or anyone else is going to help. I have received some emails expressing further interest in what I have to say; so I will try to continue here a bit as I have time. In my next post, I will be very specific; and address specific points with the Movie; “The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe.” I suppose I can concede; it is actually a good movie, as far as realistic special effects, fiction, suspense, fantasy, and witchcraft adventure goes; but is it a good idea for “evangelism,” especially when mixed with the vulgar Simpsons cartoons in a church setting? What does the Bible say?

[olger]

Dear Ed. There are many books in life, and one of them is our character. During these last dozen posts, I have been reading the "books" of you and our Calgary brother. He has a nice spirit.

Also noteworthy is the blame you placed upon him for something I wrote regarding Willow Creek. You can address me for that statement, since I am the one who said it.

God be with you,

brother olger

[there buster]

olger,

We have different ideas of "nice," both as to it's content, and it's value.

As your post demonstrates, it makes good camouflage.

[LifeHiscost]

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Michelle said:

I really want to learn something and am getting tired of the personal diversions.

M

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Michelle,

I haven't been following this thread that close, but with the few I have read (including yours) yours makes the most sense to me. I'm satisfied more can be determined about who the master of an individual is by the responses they give to those who disagree with them, than by all the purist theology they might repeat. And if the theology repeated in the message written, isn't also repeated in the personal life revealed, it is better for others to spend their time with the Word where no one but the Spirit of God gives the slant to the needed message.

[:"red"] "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. " [/] Romans 2:29 NASB

[:"red"] "Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:" [/] 1 Pet 2:23 KJV

[:"red"] "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." [/] Matthew 7:15 KJV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

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calgary_guy said:

What does the Bible say?

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I've always found that the most rewarding policy.

[:"red"] "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord... " [/] Mark 12:29 KJV

Keep looking up!!

[Guest]

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olger said:

Also noteworthy is the blame you placed upon him for something I wrote regarding Willow Creek. You can address me for that statement, since I am the one who said it.

God be with you,

brother olger

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This is true; I did not write the comment re Willow Creek. I understand that things can be mistated at times, during passionate discussion, so I have no problem with this.

Everytime I watch this Narnia movie; I just keep thinking how it is a good story line; kids appreciate it for that; but I can't figure out why we are so stuck on the idea that all the witch craft tones within the movie are so preferable to the Bible; in order to be "relevant." Isn't the Bible relevant anymore?

In my personal experiences; the Bible is always relevant to people; if it is presented in the right way, and in the right spirit.

To me, cartoons could possibly be used in some situations to reach people; but we could be choosing better ones that steer clear of materials or themes that would be offensive or unacceptable to a lot of people.

[Planey]

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calgary_guy said:

Isn't the Bible relevant anymore?

In my personal experiences; the Bible is always relevant to people; if it is presented in the right way, and in the right spirit.

To me, cartoons could possibly be used in some situations to reach people; but we could be choosing better ones that steer clear of materials or themes that would be offensive or unacceptable to a lot of people.

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I understand there were a number of people who made a similar statement to an itineratnt preacher in Palestine a number of years ago.

Apparently he made a habit of telling stories to get his message across. It seems one was particularly egregious - it was about some dude called Lazarus who died and went straight to some place where he could talk to other dead people! Totally incorrect state-of-the-dead stuff, elements of spiritualism even.

Perhaps if you'd been there you could have straightened him out, calgary_guy.

Graeme

[Michelle]

Planey, and others--just curious what you think of the following article reprinted by the Review (originally in a Baptist publication, if I remember correctly). I thought this was a fascinating article. Would like to see some discussion of this, if possible.

http://adventistreview.org/article.php?id=430

M

[there buster]

Article makes two false assumptions, widely shared in this debate:

1) To be relevant requires "watering down" the gospel, and

2) The typical traditional service is theologically and spiritually deep.

So everyone can discuss the article all they want, it is irrelevant to the debate.

Are some "seeker-sensitive" services shallow? Certainly. Are many regular SDA services shallow? Of course.

ONe particularly egregious passage in the article states:

"I would rather teach 10 kids that stayed faithful and remembered me when they were older, than teach 50 kids intermittently."

Any observer can see that the "10" in fact don't stay faithful--youth have been fleeing the church in droves for decades. In my state, which once had its own Academy, there are now only 3 church schools remaining.Thirty years ago there were 11 schools--not counting the Academy. The state's population is just about the same. You can be assured that this did not come about because of either being too "sensitive" nor because "the straight testimony" was in the least "watered down."

Nor is this phenomenon unique to my state or my conference. Similar numbers can be found across NA. Yet we keep on doing the very things that drive them away.

We live in a community with 5 colleges within a 25 mile radius, with a total enrollment of about 35,000 undergraduates. There are three churches in the area, including our own. Yet we are the only one with any college students, or any young couples in their twenties.

Discuss the article all you want, but false premisses cannot lead to valid conclusions.

[olger]

A quote from Andy Nash:

"Our churches would be better off with 50-people who know why they are there, instead of 500 who don't have a clue."

Dear Ed: Watering down the gospel will drive people away with disillusionment too. I witnessed numerous examples, just as I have seen people affronted by hard-line self-righteousness. Both are ditches that we wish to avoid. Perhaps we could find truth & grace together. I'm willing if you are.

The word of God is always relevant. In fact, I am amazed at how accurate the Bible is to provide answers to every problem that we struggle with.

blessings to you,

gcw

[there buster]

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Watering down the gospel will drive people away with disillusionment too. . . . Perhaps we could find truth & grace together. I'm willing if you are.

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Finding the truth will be difficult if you keep failing to read what I post.

There is NO CONNECTION between being seeker sensitive and watering down the gospel.

It is not necessary to "water down" anything to reach contemporary people.

How many ways do I need to say it?

Just because it's expressed differently doesn't mean it's watered down.

And I say once more: the gospel is all but absent in many of our churches already.

So please quit raising this ridiculous straw man.

It's no more necessary to "water down" the gospel to express it to contemporary people than it is necessary to "water it down" to express it in Swahili. It's just a different way of expressing the same truths.

That's the problem with the article cited above. It makes a false assumption, and then pursues that to the end. However, since that's a false assumption, the conclusions aren't relevant to the real world.

I'm wondering if people are capable of processing what they read. I"ve talked about foot-washing--not that it's the most important feature--just that it demonstrates that we don't deviate AT ALL in doctrine. The ways in which we present the truth differ. But there's more content in one of our services than in three typical SDA Sabbath services.

So, you can keep talking about "watering down the gospel" all you want, it's just not relevant to this discussion. Every time you raise the issue, you're just demonstrating that you're not paying attention.

[olger]

Dear Ed: I am not accusing you of anything.

I read your posts and I understand them.

Which is more important for us... Being right or being righteous?

Have a great day,

brother olger

[Nicodema]

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Michelle said:

Planey, and others--just curious what you think of the following article reprinted by the Review (originally in a Baptist publication, if I remember correctly). I thought this was a fascinating article. Would like to see some discussion of this, if possible.

http://adventistreview.org/article.php?id=430

M

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I need to give this a more thorough read before offering a thought-out opinion, but on first pass skim it seems to be largely predicated upon the falsehood of dichotomy, of "EITHER this OR that" where there are numerous other factors, options, etc. not being weighed. For example, the business of lessons being too deep and driving people away? This is easily solved by having more than one class, where those needing to dig deep can dig deep and those needing acquaintance with the basics of God's word at a particular "easier" level can be accomodated.

Will read more thoroughly & get back later ....

[Nicodema]

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Which is more important for us... Being right or being righteous?

Have a great day,

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I'm convinced there is an exceptionally warm spot in the Lake of Fire reserved for those who play head-games with other people in this fashion...

• First, let's pretend the only reason someone wrote what they did was out of "anger". Then let's gently chide them for that supposed "anger". Hopefully we can thereby provoke some REAL "anger" -- or at least a response easily twisted into a reasonable facsimile thereof -- so that we can chuckle oh-so-warmly and say See? We were right all along.

Well, all I can say is: God sees. God knows.

How long, O Lord? How long?

Even so, come Lord Jesus. Amen.

[Planey]

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olger said:

Which is more important for us... Being right or being righteous?

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Or being self-righteous?

Graeme

[there buster]

olger, I did not assume you were accusing me of anything. Why do you feel constrained to say you were not?

I was responding to what you had addressed to me:

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Dear Ed: Watering down the gospel will

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Now you say you weren't accusing me of anything ( a non sequitur) and then ask whether it's more important to be right or to be righteous? (another non sequitur)

It appears you may have confused being obscure with being profound.

Given the types of reasoning you offer, you may also have confused rites with righteousness.

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I'm willing . . .

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Then stop trying to score points and start responding with reason and evidence.

[Michelle]

I'm outta here. I can't say anymore without making personal judgements and comments, which I am unwilling to do. But the frustration is too great.

M

[Guest]

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by Ed - There is NO CONNECTION between being seeker sensitive and watering down the gospel.

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Well; we just watched the movie again tonight; and I would just like to state one, brief agreement with Ed & his "straw woman" above - PEOPLE DO INDEED SEE WHAT THEY WANT. I sincerely regret ever starting this little fire - I think some of us have already made our own little "Lake" and the "fire" is unquenchable. Therefore; I will join with Michelle.

From the start; my stated problem has been with Narnia, and calling it Christian; which it is not. Yes; it does mention a few Christian things; but anything "good" is vastly over-shadowed by the White Witch, and her prowess; and the crazed antics of all her minions. There are too many Biblical errors and stretches in this movie for it to be "Christian."

On a more comical note; my wife said that one of the "Minotaurs" (hope I spelled it right), reminded her of me when I get mad. So atleast we got a chuckle from this fantasy gospel.

I will start a different topic in the next day or two here at CA regarding evangelism; as there are some things I am interested in discussing with anyone else who might like to explore the topic a bit.

Thanks for the kind words, to those of you who tried to work with me a bit on this; and for those who opposed my opinions here; thanks for all that I have learned as a result of our discussion. We can all learn, grow, and move onward & upward from here; if we want to.

[olger]

Dear Ed. Bless you. I'm looking forward to meeting you someday.

We don't know each other yet, but we are both believers. My posts were designed to see if we could connect as believers. You are more important to me than my opinion (being right). God tells us to encourage one another all the more as we see the day approaching--that is the greater weight of righteousness.

This applies to all of US. Dominance can "win" but it will destroy others in the process. If we can discuss the presentation of the gospel in a kind manner, we will demonstrate true righteousness. If we can't, we give evidence that the gospel is intellectual theory to us. I have been guilty of that in the past, and God forgave me and showed me a better way.

I am much more interested in the spirit of a person than I am in their opinion (myself included). I am a convert to the Advent message, and very grateful for the truth of it. I am willing to hear your ideas Ed. You may have some good ones, and generalizations of either kind are not helpful. Where could we begin?

Michelle, I appreciate your post. I understand completly, and if I contributed to conflict in any way, I was wrong for doing so.

Calgary guy, I appreciate your kind demeanor too. With that we can each accomplish much.

God's love to each one,

olger

[Nicodema]

Gotta love the ads that pop up randomly on this page.

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"Designer skin" sounds pretty creepy ... ... but the turkish delight ad was cute. Especially considering that just now the thought "kill 'em with kindness" and an image of the white witch offering Edmund turkish delight floated through my mind simultaneously.

Not that I'm against kindness, mind you -- far from it!! I would wish to see more of it shown to me, and more ability to show it to others. What concerns me is focus upon packaging without due attention to contents. Granted, contents may settle during shipping. But reducing Love to a series of socially-appropriate cues to be determined by some vague consensus, and discarding the content of communication in favor of conformity to said cues, does not seem wise unto me.

[there buster]

Here's some correspondence with a young pastor in Easter Europe, part of the former Soviet Bloc.

Here is part of his original request to someone in our Seminary, who had read my book manuscript for reaching postmoderns (I leave the original language intact. English is not the sender's first language.)

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My question is: Do you have some material which is good in that sense for this kind of young people of x generation? Do you have some idea how to present them God and Bible in the way that they would be realy interested and connected with Him. Thank you very much in advance. . . . . If you can, please, help me.

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The professor put the two of us together, and I sent him a copy of my manuscript, which he is now using in studies.

Here was his first reaction, several weeks ago:

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I read just tree chapters and it is very very interesting, even for "old adventists". This book has soft and sweet emphasis of biblical values but in one new, fresh way. And it is not assailant - it said as God in Bible: if you want, not you must, I would be very happy to show you the way of life.

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Now, more recently

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This is fantastic, brother Ed . . . . When I read just a few sentence in chapter #5, specially your "translation" of Job, I feel so good connection with our time and thinking . . . . This is really something that this world need to know, specially our youth who is in temptation to change adventist heritage with secular products. Thank you one more time cause you share such a beatiful way of thinking. May God bless you and your family.

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I've had many young people attest to the power of that manuscript. Some were raised in the church, and left; others who are not of Christian background.

Yet if I made that chapter available on this forum, many would condemn it, in fact, would condemn the very part that the young pastor felt spoke so powerfully to him.

When it was published in modified form in one of our outreach magazines, the editor described it as "great" and "spot on for our audience," but then had to wonder of church members would cause trouble over it.

It's a continual dilemma for those actually engaging contemporarry people. Will the church members allow us to actually be effective or not?

But then, it was true in Luke 15, too.

[Guest]

quotes by ED

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1/

Yet if I made that chapter available on this forum, many would condemn it, in fact, would condemn the very part that the young pastor felt spoke so powerfully to him.

2/

It's a continual dilemma for those actually engaging contemporary people. Will the church members allow us to actually be effective or not?

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Regarding quote #1 above:

This is a very unwarranted presumption/accusation. The tendency to witchcraft flavored materials for use in Evangelism has been objected to here; but that objection cannot include such blanket condemnations of any/or all attempts to make the gospel relevant to people. I am

speaking out in objection to witchcraft themes being the companion of gospel themes; and I am objecting to only that here.

Regarding quote #2 - it is unfortunate that such generalizations are so widely accepted. It is not a question of "being allowed to be effective."

My question has always been, and still is; why do we feel so strongly bent towards stuff with any witchcraft in it at all? To be relevant to people today; are there not much better choices that could be made - whether we talk of cartoons, movies, or whatever? The warnings in scripture re staying away from witchcraft are so compelling; that it is impossible to just get away with accusing me of being closed minded, rude, etc. I am amazed at all the "interesting" adjectives and characterizations which have been used for me here; just because of an opinion I have.

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"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

See the list of the workings of the lust of the flesh: "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry,

witchcraft,

hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like." None of these shall you fulfill, over all these things you have the victory, when you walk in the Spirit. It is the faithful word of God." - AT Jones

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"In the name of Christ I would address His professed followers: Abide in the faith which you have received from the beginning. Shun profane and vain babblings.

Instead of putting your trust in witchcraft,

have faith in the living God. Cursed is the path that leads to En-dor or to

Ekron. The feet will stumble and fall that venture upon the forbidden ground. There is a God in Israel, with whom is deliverance for all that are oppressed. Righteousness is the habitation of His throne." 5T.197.002

There is danger in departing in the least from the Lord's instruction. When we deviate from the plain path of duty, a train of circumstances will arise that seems irresistibly to draw us further and further from the right. Needless intimacies with those who have no respect for God will seduce us ere we are aware. Fear to offend worldly friends will deter us from expressing our gratitude to God or acknowledging our dependence upon Him. We must keep close to the word of God. We need its warnings and encouragement, its threatenings and promises. We need the perfect example given only in the life and character of our Saviour.

5T.197.003 - Ellen G White

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I just showed the Narnia movie to two kids. When I asked them what they thought of it, the first thing they said was: "Creepy." This movie is not as "Christ-centered" as some of us like to say it is. Maybe some of us are daring to cross one of those lines - going to the witch to get the goods on God?

In summary; I would say BE RELEVANT; but why cross a line that God Himself has drawn to do it?