The Stones are Crying Out

[Nicodema]

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Ed Dickerson said:

I have the same problem.

I have Former-Day Saints playing Chutes & Ladders

or is that Hook & Ladder playing Heinrich Schutz (obscure musical pun)

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LOL!

[Guest]

Hey Ed! Relax man! I am not worried about you trying to prove me wrong. It's just that the nature of your responses to me suggest you are irritated with me; and that you do not intend to actually address the legitimate concerns/questions I have brought up. What your responses to me here actually do mean; I can only guess at. But in the last post I made here; I did in good faith ask some questions/raise some concerns that many people have. I don't think you can really do justice to this topic by continuing to smear my "Bible study method;" when you actually have no way of knowing what it is; except for the mostly devotional context of my responses. It is a given that many of the scriptures I have mentioned here have multiple ideas/principles/contexts; but if we were to start another topic at CA to specifically do an in depth exegesis of a given passage; my responses would likely still irritate some people, because ever since I was a kid; I was always asking "Why?" LOL...Ask my Mom and my wife if you don't believe me!!

"Why" is one of the first principles of exegesis; but those who are ensnared by eisegesis cannot usually tolerate that. They often will resort to responses that simply denounce the person's "ability" to study the Bible.

I will likely just start a separate topic at CA somewhere to do a study or two in Isaiah; it would be something I would enjoy; the word "learned" as used in 50:4 does bring out some really interesting points, within a much bigger context, (as you were trying to say earlier here); but as for this topic; I really do not want to argue. I am trying hard not to!! I apologize if it seems like I am!!

But I do have a number of questions/concerns about things in this topic; and I am still interested in hearing others comments on it. It needs to be understood that some of my points are not even related to my own, personal "method" of Bible study, as they are also coming from others who have brought them to me. It should be noted that in my last post; I did refer my comments to others from Focus On The Family, and another Adventist author.

I would like to come back to this topic though, and address the following quote from your post above:

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I'm quite aware of the Bible's teaching about witches. But the way you're using the texts, you should also condemn 1 Sam 28. It also features a witch. Contrary to SDA understanding, 1 Sam 28 states that the witch of Endor did in fact raise Samuel.

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This would be worth a look at given the context of this topic.

[Michelle]

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I'm quite aware of the Bible's teaching about witches. But the way you're using the texts, you should also condemn 1 Sam 28. It also features a witch. Contrary to SDA understanding, 1 Sam 28 states that the witch of Endor did in fact raise Samuel.

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Huh? Doesn't read that way in my Bible.

M

[Guest]

OK Michelle...don't leave me wondering!! Can you expand upon your opinion here re 1 Sam. 28? I agree, this passage is often misunderstood.

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Love anything, care for anyone,

and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken.

If you want to make sure of keeping it intact,

you must give your heart to no one, not even an animal.

Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries;

avoid all entanglements;

lock it up safe in the casket of your selfishness.

But in that casket -- safe, drab, motionless, airless -- your heart will change.

It will not be broken;

it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable.

-- C. S. Lewis

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[there buster]

NIV

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12When the woman saw Samuel. . . .

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said . . .

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NASB

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12When the woman saw Samuel. . . .

15Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" . . .

16Samuel said, . . .

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KJV, CEV, The Message Wisdom--

every translation I checked said the same things.

Now, we have an explanation for what really happened. I'm simply trying to point out that we Christians take certain things for granted that look very different to others. And the simplistic condemnations of Narnia because there is a witch in the books can be equally applied to the Bible.

Virtually every kind of evil we condemn in any bit of popular culture is also in the Bible. So it is not the presence or citation of evil that makes a work unhealthy, it is how that evil is depicted. But I suspect you understand this, Michelle.

[there buster]

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that you do not intend to actually address the legitimate concerns/questions I have brought up.

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You have a responsibility here, as well. The answer to your concerns lies entirely within your ability to remedy.

For example, your criticism of "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe" indicates either you have not read the book, or if you have, you have intentionally distorted its meaning.

The fact that you go on and on about witches, wizards, and sorcery-- not to mention "out-of-body travel" and other things-- shows again you either have not read or do not understand the Chronicles of Narnia.

Its disingenuous to quote Focus on the Family concerning Harry Potter, and not realize that they put the Chronicles of Narnia on their Children's Radio Theater.

Is that because you were unaware? or was it intentional distortion? In either case, if you really want to know, at least demonstrate that you've made an effort to actually know what you're talking about.

The answer to your ostensible puzzlement about fantasy is answered in the very quote you cite.

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"8T.308.003

Myths and Fairy Tales In the education of children and youth, fairy tales, myths, and fictitious stories are now given a large place. Books of this character are used in the schools, and they are to be found in many homes. How can Christian parents permit their children to use books so filled with falsehood? When the children ask the meaning of stories so contrary to the teaching of their parents, the answer is that the stories are not true; but this does not do away with the evil results of their use.

The ideas presented in these books mislead the children. They impart false views of life and beget and foster a desire for the unreal."

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First of all, it's just sloppy to apply the terms in the first sentence without inquiring what she was actually talking about. Pilgrim's Progress is itself mythic, and certainly fictitious.

But the real questions about the Chronicles of Narnia are 1)Are they "contrary to the teaching of the parents." and 2) Do they in fact "impart false values of life and beget and foster a desire for the unreal?"

Even then, question 2 must be further examined; for many children heaven is "unreal." So anything that makes them desire heaven would fall into that category, unless we understand what she actually meant.

But I'll happily answer the two questions regarding the Chronicles of Narnia.

1) No they do not contradict the teachings of parents who are teaching their children about real Christianity.

2) No they do not impart false values, nor do they foster a desire for the unreal.

Now, as to the former Marine who wept at the movie.

1)Yes, it did contradict the teachings of his parents, who portrayed God as legalistic, capricious, and demanding.

2)Yes, it made him desire something he had seldom experienced before, something he considered unreal until he came to our church.

[archierieus]

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Ed Dickerson said:

Contrary to SDA understanding, 1 Sam 28 states that the witch of Endor did in fact raise Samuel.

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I have not been particularly following this thread, but this statement perked my interest, as well. Do the Scriptures here teach that the witch raised Samuel's spirit, his body, or what? And, what happened to Samuel afterwards? Would you care to respond here, or do you think this is a separate topic which would call for a new thread?

Dave

[there buster]

Really nothing to get excited about.

All I'm saying is that the text read literally, doesn't say that the spirit the witch raised merely looked like Samuel. It says that it was Samuel.

At this point in Israel's history, no detailed doctrine of "the State of the Dead" had yet been articulated, so it's not really a big deal.

In the context of this topic, yes, there's a witch in Narnia. She's evil, and cruel, and someone to be avoided.

There's also a witch in 1 Sam 28. By comparison, she's pretty harmless, if you're just reading the story. And, if you're just reading the story, she raises Samuel.

In that comparison, the witch in 1 Sam 28 is the more appealing character. Yet we have before us the example of the most strenuous condemnation of Narnia, while ignoring the a similar, but more dangerous, character in the Bible.

[Nicodema]

I have a story you might like Ed. Don't know if I shared this before or not ... but one of the ladies at my church has a daughter around age 12-13 or so who went to see the Lion, Witch & Wardrobe movie and this lady was telling me since having seen it, it's like her daughter has a totally new hunger for and interest in the BIBLE like never before. She got some companion book about Narnia, etc. and has been going through it and comparing scriptures to the stories and looking things up in the Bible, etc.

So there's at least one living example of how something like Narnia can spark a child's interest in the things of God.

Just thought you'd enjoy hearing about that.

[Nicodema]

Here's another Narnia story, Ed.

We obtained a set of DVDs with a British "Narnia" series on it. There is the Lion/Witch/Wardrobe, Prince Caspian, Voyage of the Dawn Treader and the Silver Chair in the series. My son, my boyfriend and I were all watching Voyage of the Dawn Treader and the Silver Chair on Saturday night and Sunday. At the part where Eustace has turned into a dragon and Aslan comes to scrape/shed all the dragon-scales off him and end the enchantment, my boyfriend actually paused the thing and gave an explanation of what it meant, that "in the Christian symbolism" (as he put it) only Christ can provide us with the total cleansing we need within ourselves to change us. (My boyfriend is not a Christian ... so my jaw was on the floor!)

Later there was another scene where Caspian and Edmund began fighting over claim to a river that turns things to gold, and Aslan shows up in a kind of "vision" form and roars and they both immediately snap out of it, stop fighting, and marvel at how ridiculous they were each acting. So I pointed out that this is like when the Holy Spirit gets your attention on something you're doing wrong, it can bring you to your senses immediately.

[there buster]

Loved your stories, Nico.

We own the three videotapes of the earlier BBC series you're describing. They didn't have the budget that these latest movies do, and the computer graphics weren't available that could make Aslan a realistic looking lion.

Eustace the dragon is a most telling story. As you say, he tries scraping the dragon scales off, but, despite its pain, it does no good. Aslan tells him that only he, Aslan, can remove the dragon skin and restore him to his former human self.

One of the objections some make about the Sabbath is that there's no rationale for it. That is, they can understand why we shouldn't worship idols, or kill, or whatever. But remember the seventh day is just arbitrary--there's no reason for it.

In Perelandra, one of his science fiction trilogy, This objection is made about something else that God has required. The reply is "Where can you taste the joy of obedience, unless he bids you do something for which his bidding is the only reason."

In "The Silver Chair," Jill Poll meets Aslan for the first time, after she and Eustace were calling out to him from their school in England. When Aslan says he called her, she says, "Excuse me, but we called out to you." To which Aslan replies, "You would not have called to me, unless I had been calling to you."

So much of Lewis' fiction is like the parables of Jesus. Simple on the surface, breathtaking in their depth and insight.

And yes, one of the best: Lucy hears about the great Lion, and asks if he's safe. To which Mrs. Beaver replies. "Of course not. Who told you such a thing. He's not safe, but he is good."

Christ is not "safe." He asks for everything, might even ask you to lay down your life. Nothing safe about Him. But He's good.

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total cleansing we need within ourselves to change us. (My boyfriend is not a Christian ... so my jaw was on the floor!)

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Just what I've been seeing, and saying. The stones are crying out, because we miss the insight, and feel no sense of loss.

[Michelle]

I have a HUGE OOPS to make here. In my reading late last night, I mis-read what Ed said to mean that the witch "raised" Samuel from childhood--in other words, I was using the wrong usage of the word raised. I didn't realize that until in the moments before I went to sleep, it flashed across my brain---OOOOOOOPPPPPPSSS! but the computer was off and I was almost asleep, so I realized I'd have to wait until today. I am SO SORRY about this. I don't know how I did it, because that was a whopper! Mea culpa!

M

[Nicodema]

LOL Michelle!! Eli was rolling in his grave!

Oh, wait.

This reminds me of what happens when you try to use Babelfish to translate something into Japanese ......

[Michelle]

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Here's another Narnia story, Ed.

We obtained a set of DVDs with a British "Narnia" series on it. There is the Lion/Witch/Wardrobe, Prince Caspian, Voyage of the Dawn Treader and the Silver Chair in the series. My son, my boyfriend and I were all watching Voyage of the Dawn Treader and the Silver Chair on Saturday night and Sunday. At the part where Eustace has turned into a dragon and Aslan comes to scrape/shed all the dragon-scales off him and end the enchantment, my boyfriend actually paused the thing and gave an explanation of what it meant, that "in the Christian symbolism" (as he put it) only Christ can provide us with the total cleansing we need within ourselves to change us. (My boyfriend is not a Christian ... so my jaw was on the floor!)

Later there was another scene where Caspian and Edmund began fighting over claim to a river that turns things to gold, and Aslan shows up in a kind of "vision" form and roars and they both immediately snap out of it, stop fighting, and marvel at how ridiculous they were each acting. So I pointed out that this is like when the Holy Spirit gets your attention on something you're doing wrong, it can bring you to your senses immediately.

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Nico--wow! We have the BBC DVD of the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, also. (and I've seen the others, just haven't found them here yet) What insight from your boyfriend!

M

[Michelle]

Nico--yes, I kept thinking, What in the WORLD is Ed claiming here? It just didn't hit me that I was being illogical (wonder how often that happens?).

*blush*

M

[Nicodema]

Yes ... I keep angsting over what effect it's going to have on him when I go back to school. Being apart is going to be very VERY hard on him and I'm so afraid it's going to cause negative feelings toward God in him just when he seems to be beginning to open up to God a little here and there ... anyway, don't want to derail this thread (sorry guys!)

[Guest]

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Nicodema said:

Yes ... I keep angsting over what effect it's going to have on him when I go back to school. Being apart is going to be very VERY hard on him and I'm so afraid it's going to cause negative feelings toward God in him just when he seems to be beginning to open up to God a little here and there ... anyway, don't want to derail this thread (sorry guys!)

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Love will find a way...

[there buster]

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Yes ... I keep angsting over what effect it's going to have on him when I go back to school. Being apart is going to be very VERY hard on him and I'm so afraid it's going to cause negative feelings toward God in him just when he seems to be beginning to open up to God a little here and there

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One thing I tell people again and again. If it's God's will for you (to go back to school, in this case), it cannot be wrong for someone else. So don't worry about him, as long as what you're doing is God's will for you.

[Guest]

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Ed Dickerson said:

Just what I've been seeing, and saying. The stones are crying out, because we miss the insight, and feel no sense of loss.

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What exactly we are seeing, I think actually remains to be seen.

Roger Ford, the production designer of Disney's version of Narnia states: "So the imagery is provided by the child's and the reader's imagination." But, unlike books, movies implant ready-made images. "The challenge of a film-maker is to live up to and exceed the people's imagination," continues Ford, "and really transport them to another time and place."

We must admit; today's digital magic fulfills that function all too well! But where does this movie transport the minds of our children? What kinds of enticements does it feed to their human nature and emotional appetites? What suggestions will leave lasting imprints in their memory? What will we have to unteach them later? Those are the questions that Christian parents need to ask. And a single phrase answers all three: the world of the occult.

This is not my opinion - it's what I am personally seeing. "Narnia Stories" fail to address this.

[there buster]

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But where does this movie transport the minds of our children? What kinds of enticements does it feed to their human nature and emotional appetites? What suggestions will leave lasting imprints in their memory? What will we have to unteach them later? Those are the questions that Christian parents need to ask. And a single phrase answers all three: the world of the occult.

This is not my opinion - it's what I am personally seeing. "Narnia Stories" fail to address this

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No doubt you're correct. All the evidence, all the experiences, all the case histories, all that is wrong, and you are right.

I'll have to tell my adult children that their experiences are illusory, now that the truth has been revealed to me. They don't realize that their lasting impressions are mistaken. They just think they see Christian truths in Narnia. And without knowing it, they are attracted to the occult.

[Michelle]

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Beyond the obvious fantasy element of Narnia; it is also replete with much mysterious information about witches, sorcerers, spells, curses,charms, out-of-body travel, and communication with spirits; all of which reflect actual beliefs and practices in the real world of both ancient and modern occultism.

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Calgary Guy--I know (and assume) from your words that you have not read Lewis's Narnia or Space Trilogy. I'm wondering, then, where you got the above information from. Are you extrapolating from Focus on the Family's concerns about Harry Potter? I have not read Harry Potter, but I have read Lewis many times, and I am having a hard time coming up with any instances of the examples you've given. (except that there are a couple of witches in some of the books, none of whom are ever viewed in a positive light, and none of whose enchantments or curses are ever "quoted.").

I do think that there could be a "danger" of someone being drawn into more fantasy worlds after reading Narnia. I do question some of the elements in the Narnia books. I do not endorse the books wholesale. But I do think that there are better arguments against them than the above paragraph, which bears no resemblance to the actual Narnia books. Nico posted a Salon article which addresses concerns in a possibly more well-balanced way.

I think possibly that most of what you wrote in that post was originally intended to be about HP, because there is no "witchcraft" as such in Narnia. There is "magic," but that's often used as a word to explain something not-understandable. Lewis makes a distinction between the "magic" of so-called magicians or witches, and the "magic" that in our language we would call a miracle.

So, while I think there could be some very valid concerns regarding Narnia, I think this post does not address them, nor does it even address Narnia. As I stated earlier, I have been doing tons of reading on Narnia, both pro and con, and I am aware of the issues of controversy. The issues you addressed are not among them, because they are not relevant to Narnia itself.

M

[Guest]

Hi Michelle

I liked the tone you used in your reply...much appreciated.

I am not so daft that I would just spout off without having done some kind of home work here.

The very title of this movie is "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe." And this is what we are to call "no witch craft?" I really don't get that, and after watching the movie; I don't know how anyone else could either.

(IMHO) BTW, an 11 year old just told me that they found this movie "scary." But I guess some here cannot accept this; it just is not "right."

[Nicodema]

[tagging on, musing, directed nowhere in particular. maybe to the air. maybe to God. maybe to you.]

*feels sad that a good discussion is yet again being squelched by division*

[:"grey"]OK it's NOT just me ... EVERYONE is having these problems. I'm not some isolated misfit who alone is touchy, who alone is stubborn, who alone is adamant. I guess all attempts to make me feel that way are just deflection devices; others don't want it noticed about themselves.[/]

Why are we all so afraid of everyone seeing how insecure and pathetic we really are? Because we are all insecure and pathetic in some way, that's why.

And there's no one-upmanship escape hatch either. The moment I'm ready to say "yes, but ... at least I can ADMIT it while THEY can't" is the moment I realize wait a minute ... sometimes that's ME, too. Sometimes I can't admit it either. Sometimes I'm deflecting too.

We're all in this together, but we all feel so isolated. It seems when it's our time for the dirt to stick, everyone else looks so shiny and bright and clean, we just feel devastated. We throw the clods back at each other, or at someone else, or just slink away, or put our noses in the air, or a million other things.

It's too late for all this, brothers and sisters.

I know saying that isn't enough. It's not enough for me either. It's not enough just to SEE myself. That doesn't FIX myself. But somebody has to say it: it's too late for all this, brothers and sisters. We haven't time for it. Jesus is coming.

Jesus is coming!

And more to the point ... every day millions slip into eternity without a ray of hope. We're losing them. They're dying.

And what are we doing? Squabbling. Playing I'm right and you're wrong and if you don't relent NOW I'm going to make you miserable until you do.

We don't have time for this, brothers and sisters.

Jesus is coming.

People are dying.

And we're not getting any younger.

Less fighting. More praying.

Less squabbling. More listening to one another.

Less striving for the supremacy. More seeing how we can give each other room to share and be heard.

Less arguing. More exploring.

Less debating. More discovering.

I pledge my effort. Please be my accountability partner -- but only if you intend to join me in the effort itself.

[Michelle]

Calgary Guy--I haven't seen the new movie--it was here in HK, but I didn't get a chance to see it. I'm simply going by the books and the old BBC videos.

Nico--I agree with your points in general. I don't know if your comments were directed at me or not.

I do agree that continual arguing gets us nowhere. I'm sorry if I've furthered "continual arguing," as that is one of my pet peeves. Sometimes when I'm in the middle of something, I don't "see the forest for the trees."

I think, given my opinion about Narnia, that nothing more will be gained by my continuing in a Narnia-based discussion. If there is a different thread started that is based upon different ways of soul-winning, I'll read and see what kinds of insights are discussed.

I try not to argue, but sometimes I get drawn into it. It is in my nature to argue (and we know what Paul says about our "natural" selves--'nuff said!). I was born to debate. I'm learning to discuss (that will continue to be a life-long learning process for me!).

M

[LifeHiscost]

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calgary_guy said:

What exactly we are seeing, I think actually remains to be seen.

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I'm in agreement with you, calgary_guy. I would like to suggest there are bonafide examples of people comparing Scripture with the "sayings" of Narnia, and then repeating

the thought, (I believe it's from a servant of the Most High God) ,

[:"red"] "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood,.... in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." [/]

Joshua 24:15 KJV

The question that arises in my mind is, 'Has the good news of deliverance through Jesus Christ been made appealing because of Narnia, or in spite of said figment of the imagination?

Maybe this is comparing apples to oranges, but it also seems to me that certain stories of the Scripture known to be true, also mark circumstances less likely to draw people to Christ if they are dwelt upon, such as the drowning of the Egyptians when crossing the sea in hot pursuit of the

former slaves, now delivered as children of God. It would seem to me that dwelling on the deliverance by God, granted to His children, would be far more apt to bring joy to the believers heart than dwelling on the death throes of the army of pharoah.

Again God uses an incident, not a figment of imagination, to warn, which I don't believe saved many Egyptians. And the joy of the believer was great, not because of the Egyptians, but in spite of their threats.

God will use whatever means He finds will move people to receive Him, even fear (terror), but the ideal is not met in ideas originating from the heart of the underworld. Nor will fear (terror) hold men to God although it is used as a tool to help see the need.

[:"red"] "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." [/] 1 John 4:18 KJV

[:"red"] "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." [/] Philippians 4:8 KJV

Keep the faith!!