Made Him to be sin

[8thdaypriest]

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (NKJ).

I can't say that I understand what the words mean. 

The CJB translation, says "made Him a sin offering".  That is an interpretation.  It might be correct.  The sin offering did typify Christ.  But it also typified what the end of Satan and unrepentant sinners would be.  They will be consumed in fire.  Jesus was not consumed in fire. 

God the Father, made His Son - "to be sin". 

Peter wrote, "who Himself bore our sins in His own body" (1Pe 2:24 NKJ).  Does that mean the consequence of sin, all fell - domino by domino, until it ended with the death of the Creator?

Ever so often, it seems I come to another level of understanding just what God did through Christ.  I'm not sure we will EVER finally, completely understand just what God has done - for us.

 

 

[JoeMo]

I don't know the exact quote; but somewhere EGW said something like "He took on the punishment that we deserve that we may have the glory that we deserve"

Isaiah 53:5 says "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."

Romans 5:10-11, 2 Corinthians 5, and Colossians 1 all talk about how we have been reconciled to God through the death of Christ.

When I read these and other passages,  I think Christ becoming sin for us means that He took the ultimate responsibility for our sins; and paid the penalty for our transgressions - something He committed to do before the world was created.  He created us; so He is taking ultimate responsibility for our "malfunctions".
.

[8thdaypriest]

 2 Corinthians 5:19  "God in the Messiah was reconciling mankind to himself, not counting their sins against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." (CJB)

So God did not have to be reconciled to us.  He has always love us, and will always love us - right up to the second I cease to exist, if that were to be my end, (pray not of course).  and God wanted us (mankind) to be reconciled to Him.  But THAT would take time, and a demonstration of infinite love.  So He would delay any "wrath" for a time. 

When Paul writes, "not counting their sins against them" - this must be speaking of the sins that individuals committed BEFORE they "understood" (or could have understood) God's love for us in Christ, and BEFORE they "understood" just how all consuming of good, that EVIL is.  

OR is Paul saying that every sin, of every human being - will never be counted.  That would mean the "wicked" are NOT LOST because of their sins.  They are lost for some other reason.  They are lost because they will not surrender to Christ, believe in Him, and acknowledge Him as King and Savior?

So - IS IT A SIN TO REFUSE CHRIST?  Or is that just foolish?   

I can understand Isaiah 53 much better than 2Cor 5:21.  Isa. 53 seems to say that Jesus did what was necessary, in order to win our hearts to God.  He was the victim so that all created beings could SEE how evil always destroys all good. 

But to say that God the Father actually turned Jesus into "sin".  He "made him to be sin".  He made Jesus into something evil.  I don't understand THAT.  I think that might be a poor translation. 

Now - if it means that God the Father commanded Jesus to be the "sin offering" - that I can grasp a little better.  It WAS the Father's will that Jesus be killed by evil, in the most painful way.  It was the ultimate TEST that Jesus had to pass. 

In the Job story, God stopped Satan short of taking Job's life.  Job was a TYPE of Christ.  With Jesus, God lifted every restraint from Satan.  Satan was SURE that he could break Christ, and made Him bail, or cry out that He had changed His mind.  Satan FAILED. 

The "sin offering" was a means of acknowledging sin (confession).  It was ALWAYS offered with a second sacrifice - "the whole burnt offing".  It symbolized the persons commitment of himself wholly to the Covenant.   It was like pledging repentance. 

I always recoiled at the idea that I had any part in killing Jesus.   But - through my study, I finally had to admit that my sins also were part of the CAUSE of His death. 

[8thdaypriest]

I'm thinking about the "serpent of brass" lifted up on the pole.  The serpent was definitely a symbol of Satan.  A symbol of the one who bit us with poison. 

That would mean that God made Christ to be Satan.  ?????????

The Israelite who was bitten had to: 1.  recognize that he had been bitten  2.  Look at the serpent on the pole

One would assume that he looked at the brass serpent, because he believed that in doing so, he would be healed from the bite. 

 

[Gail]

I agree with you about the levels... OTOH, there is a simplicity, the simplicity of Jesus I've heard it referred to, that a child can understand.

And then there is a point that the Bible gets so deep that I sit agape (that is, a-gape) and I can only sit and go, WOW.

This is one of those.

I have no trouble with the idea of Jesus being made sin for us understood as He was considered guilty of our sin. The reverse is also true, that we are made the righteousness of Christ in Him. Through Him we are considered righteous, with His righteousness, even.

[Robert]

He was made what He was not by divine right.  He was God, but He was also made one of us after the fall through the incarnation.  Hence Christ as the Son of Man was made sin because He took upon Himself (His Deity) our fallen humanity indwelt with its bent.  The moment He did this He came under condemnation, not for sinning, but for taking upon Himself our fallen life from Adam.  Hence as God He assumed our corporate humanity.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Robert

[JoeMo]

I'm thinking about the "serpent of brass" lifted up on the pole.  The serpent was definitely a symbol of Satan.  A symbol of the one who bit us with poison.

That would mean that God made Christ to be Satan.  ?????????

​Was the serpent a symbol of satan or a symbol of the punishment brought upon the Hebrews for their sin?  I always thought it was the latter.  But I see your point.  Was the snake a symbol of the one who bit us with poison, or a symbol of the poison - the cancer of sin - itself?  I know that it was eventually destroyed because the people were making it an "idol" of sorts - just like people make idols of besetting sins in our day and age.

[LifeHiscost]

 Hence Christ as the Son of Man was made sin because He took upon Himself (His Deity) our fallen humanity indwelt with its bent. 

​Who is the bent toward evil from? And how does your conclusion fit into a bent toward evil with this fact about Jesus?

30“....... for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; 31but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here....John 14

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

2 Corinthians 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (NKJ).

I can't say that I understand what the words mean. 

The CJB translation, says "made Him a sin offering".  That is an interpretation.  It might be correct.  The sin offering did typify Christ.  But it also typified what the end of Satan and unrepentant sinners would be.  They will be consumed in fire.  Jesus was not consumed in fire. 

God the Father, made His Son - "to be sin". 

Peter wrote, "who Himself bore our sins in His own body" (1Pe 2:24 NKJ).  Does that mean the consequence of sin, all fell - domino by domino, until it ended with the death of the Creator?

Ever so often, it seems I come to another level of understanding just what God did through Christ.  I'm not sure we will EVER finally, completely understand just what God has done - for us.

 

 

​

It is just as easy to describe so we can understand it, sinners might become the righteousness of God in Him, as it is Christ being made sin for us.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[Woody]

I agree with Robert.

[LifeHiscost]

I agree with Robert.

​

  

Jesus Christ is the great truth for this time. In Him are bound up all the truths that concern our salvation. “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Christ died for the whole world, yet how few fill the place God has assigned them as householders! The Lord expects His householders to prepare the way for His second advent by helping in every possible way those for whom He gave His life. The signs of His second coming are clearly pointed out in prophecy. When He came to the world the first time, divinity and humanity were blended. This is our only hope. The Son of man is fully qualified to be the originator of a humanity that will blend with divinity by partaking of the divine nature. He offers to make us golden threads in the web of humanity. He would have us act our part by co-operating with Him in healing the springs of life which have been perverted, and setting them flowing in sanctified channels.{ST March 8, 1899, par. 10} 

  The offerings presented to the Lord were to be

without blemish. These offerings represented Christ, and from this it is evident that Jesus Himself was free from physical deformity. He was the “lamb without blemish and without spot.” 1 Peter 1:19. His physical structure was not marred by any defect; His body was strong and healthy. And throughout His lifetime He lived in conformity to nature’s laws. Physically as well as spiritually, He was an example of what God designed all humanity to be through obedience to His laws. {DA 50.3} 

10'But if his offering is from the flock, of the sheep or of the goats, for a burnt offering, he shall offer it a male without defect.....Leviticus 1

I'm assuming then both of you feel Jesus was either a blemished offering or the bent (propensity) toward evil is not evil in itself and Jesus had worldly lusts. 

Just to set the record straight, I see that as a false doctrine, not Biblically sound.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

 

[Robert]

​Who is the bent toward evil from? And how does your conclusion fit into a bent toward evil with this fact about Jesus?

30“....... for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me; 31but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here....John 14

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

​There was no response...He did not succumb to temptation. Besides it wasn't Jesus's nature, it was ours.  Our fallen life and it's bent tempted Him, but not for a moment did He consent to sin.

Besides, you can't be tempted if you have nothing in you that is bent-to-self.   Adam and Eve fell, not because they were tempted, but because they were deceived.

[Robert]

 

​... you feel Jesus was either a blemished offering or the bent (propensity) toward evil....

 

​

Jesus' life of perfect obedience was without blemish, but the humanity He assumed was bent-to-self.  Christ came to save sinners, not before the fall, but after.  And the only sinners I know of are indwelt with that bent-to-self.  Jesus, as God, assumed our fallen life (as the Son of Man) and lived a perfect life.  He then submitted that life to the 2nd death.  Hence "in Christ" we have been legally redeemed.  

When Paul states that "your old life died when Christ was crucified"  (Rom 6:6) was it Adam's life before the fall or after?  Answer: After. So Christ assumed your life after the fall indwelt with you bent.  Hence He assumed humanity in its fallen condition and by doing so rewrote our history.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Robert

[8thdaypriest]

​

Jesus' life of perfect obedience was without blemish, but the humanity He assumed was bent-to-self.  Christ came to save sinners, not before the fall, but after.  And the only sinners I know of are indwelt with that bent-to-self.  Jesus, as God, assumed our fallen life (as the Son of Man) and lived a perfect life.  He then submitted that life to the 2nd death.  Hence "in Christ" we have been legally redeemed.  

When Paul states that "your old life died when Christ was crucified"  (Rom 6:6) was it Adam's life before the fall or after?  Answer: After. So Christ assumed your life after the fall indwelt with you bent.  Hence He assumed humanity in its fallen condition and by doing so rewrote our history.

​I totally disagree Robert. 

[8thdaypriest]

In the Ancient Middle East, honor was everything.  Shame was to be avoided at all costs.  Yes Jesus endured the greatest shame imaginable.  The people knew the Torah.

CJB  Deuteronomy 21:22-23 "If someone has committed a capital crime and is put to death, then hung on a tree, his body is not to remain all night on the tree, but you must bury him the same day, because a person who has been hanged has been cursed by God - so that you will not defile your land, which ADONAI your God is giving you to inherit."

They would have assumed that this man was cursed of God.  NOT the Messiah. 

CJB  Isaiah 53:4 "In fact, it was our diseases he bore, our pains from which he suffered; yet we regarded him as punished, stricken and afflicted by God."

This sounds a LOT like Jobs three "friends" who believed that Job was suffering punishment from God, when it was actually Satan who did this to Job.  So with Christ,  Jesus appeared to the people as "smitten by God" and "cursed" by God.  Yet this was Satan's doing.  

Perhaps "made him to be sin" is referring to the way He appeared - to the people who watched His execution, or simply heard of His death (but not His resurrection). 

 

[8thdaypriest]

I do believe that Jesus took the human nature of man, but not the "fallen nature".  The REASON behind the "fallen nature" was the absence of the Spirit within.   Christ emptied himself of His own divine power, at the time He incarnated.  He took the nature of Abraham - human nature. 

But UNLIKE US, He was indwelt by the Spirit of His Father, from the moment of His birth.  He said it Himself,  "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me." 

In THAT SENSE, He was the "last Adam".  Yes - this gave Him a great advantage.  We are NOT indwelt from birth, BECAUSE human beings must ASK for that indwelling.  Because Jesus pre-existed, He could ASK for that indwelling BEFORE He incarnated.   God does not just enter a person's mind/heart without permission.  He only "knocks at the door".  

Because Jesus possessed the indwelling from birth, He was put to a much greater TEST then any other human being will be called upon to endure. 

I believe that the Father withdrew from His own Son, in the hour of greatest physical suffering.  (Or He may have simply allowed the demons to render His Son unable to sense His presence.)  That is WHY Jesus cried out, "My God - why have you forsaken me?"  He could not longer sense His Father's presence.  THAT is what killed Him.  The Father TREATED His own son - as He will finally treat those who have resisted His Spirit until He can do no more.  He will withdraw His Spirit from them.  He will give them over to the power of Satan, and to the power of their own lusts and hatreds. 

 

[LifeHiscost]

​I totally disagree Robert. 

​

And that disagreement agrees with the Word. To put it in my words without spending time to give the Biblical texts, Jesus came, among other things, to vindicate the character of God which had been besmirched by the adversary who pointed to God as making laws unable to be kept. Although that is the truth re: fallen humanity in his own strength, it was not the truth when Eve was tempted. That strength will be regained for the children of the new creation.

13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me....Philippians 4

…4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing....John 15

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[8thdaypriest]

We - human beings - were created/designed to be INDWELT by our Creator.  We were to have that symbiotic (so-to-speak) relationship. 

Human nature - WITHOUT the indwelling of divine nature - IS carnal (self-seeking). 

Jesus Christ had the indwelling of His Father.  We are to seek and open the door to, the indwelling of Christ. 

[pnattmbtc]

 2 Corinthians 5:19  "God in the Messiah was reconciling mankind to himself, not counting their sins against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation." (CJB)

So God did not have to be reconciled to us.  He has always love us, and will always love us - right up to the second I cease to exist, if that were to be my end, (pray not of course).  and God wanted us (mankind) to be reconciled to Him.  But THAT would take time, and a demonstration of infinite love.  So He would delay any "wrath" for a time. 

When Paul writes, "not counting their sins against them" - this must be speaking of the sins that individuals committed BEFORE they "understood" (or could have understood) God's love for us in Christ, and BEFORE they "understood" just how all consuming of good, that EVIL is.  

OR is Paul saying that every sin, of every human being - will never be counted.  That would mean the "wicked" are NOT LOST because of their sins.  They are lost for some other reason.  They are lost because they will not surrender to Christ, believe in Him, and acknowledge Him as King and Savior?

So - IS IT A SIN TO REFUSE CHRIST?  Or is that just foolish?   

I can understand Isaiah 53 much better than 2Cor 5:21.  Isa. 53 seems to say that Jesus did what was necessary, in order to win our hearts to God.  He was the victim so that all created beings could SEE how evil always destroys all good. 

But to say that God the Father actually turned Jesus into "sin".  He "made him to be sin".  He made Jesus into something evil.  I don't understand THAT.  I think that might be a poor translation. 

Now - if it means that God the Father commanded Jesus to be the "sin offering" - that I can grasp a little better.  It WAS the Father's will that Jesus be killed by evil, in the most painful way.  It was the ultimate TEST that Jesus had to pass. 

In the Job story, God stopped Satan short of taking Job's life.  Job was a TYPE of Christ.  With Jesus, God lifted every restraint from Satan.  Satan was SURE that he could break Christ, and made Him bail, or cry out that He had changed His mind.  Satan FAILED. 

The "sin offering" was a means of acknowledging sin (confession).  It was ALWAYS offered with a second sacrifice - "the whole burnt offing".  It symbolized the persons commitment of himself wholly to the Covenant.   It was like pledging repentance. 

I always recoiled at the idea that I had any part in killing Jesus.   But - through my study, I finally had to admit that my sins also were part of the CAUSE of His death. 

​Great question.  I think how you interpreted Isa 53 here is the same idea as 2 Cor:5, just the language is different.  I looked at different translations.  One said Jesus "took our sin".  I think that's easier to understand, and is the same idea Paul had in mind, although he used a different phrase.  In a general sense, we see a contrast.  God did something in order that we might become righteous.  What did He do?  In Romans we learn that the goodness of God leads us to repentance.  God's goodness is revealed in Christ through the cross.  Although terrible things were happening to Christ, we see only goodness revealed from Christ.  The worse things were for Him, the more He revealed goodness.  This seems to me to be in harmony with what you wrote about Isaiah 53.  So I think it's the same idea as you expressed, but just different language.

Regarding why people are lost, the way I look at it is that if we are estranged from God, we couldn't possibly be happy in heaven in the presence of God and beings who love and worship Him.  We need to be converted.  What converts us is the goodness of God, which leads us to repentance, and the supernatural work of God to change our hard hearts, if we consent.  So the lost are lost because they refuse to respond; they insist upon remaining enemies in their own minds, alienated from God.

[Robert]

​I totally disagree Robert. 

​Well, then you are disagreeing with the gospel Paul proclaimed.

[Robert]

Human nature - WITHOUT the indwelling of divine nature - IS carnal (self-seeking). 

​No, no, no....Human nature remains 100% sinful even in the believer.  Your nature hasn't changed.  It's your mind that's done a u-turn.  That's called conversion.  

Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.

Here you have a born-again believer.  Notice His flesh (nature) hasn't changed.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​ God did something in order that we might become righteous.  What did He do?  In Romans we learn that the goodness of God leads us to repentance.

 

​Repentance is reaction to the gospel, so you got it backwards.  What God did was put your corporate life into Christ and by doing this He rewrote your history.  Hence "in Christ" you stand perfect before God's law.

[8thdaypriest]

​No, no, no....Human nature remains 100% sinful even in the believer.  Your nature hasn't changed.  It's your mind that's done a u-turn.  That's called conversion.  

Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.

Here you have a born-again believer.  Notice His flesh (nature) hasn't changed.

​OK Robert.  How 'bout if I say, "Human nature - without the indwelling of the divine nature - will ACT carnally. 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

Robert,

Could we concentrate on the words "made Him to be sin" - and what THAT means.  You are off topic.  You are using EVERY thread to teach your version of "the gospel". 

[LifeHiscost]

​

God is Love!  Jesus saves!