Made Him to be sin

[LifeHiscost]

This is what I was addressing in the above.

 Could we concentrate on the words "made Him to be sin" - and what THAT means.  You are off topic.  You are using EVERY thread to teach your version of "the gospel".   

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[joeb]

​There was no response...He did not succumb to temptation. Besides it wasn't Jesus's nature, it was ours.  Our fallen life and it's bent tempted Him, but not for a moment did He consent to sin.

Besides, you can't be tempted if you have nothing in you that is bent-to-self.   Adam and Eve fell, not because they were tempted, but because they were deceived.

​Baloney. 

They fell because Eve wanted to be like God.  That was the temptation that was held out.  Eat this and you will be like God.  Eat this and you will know much more than you know now.  God is withholding this from you and it is to your benefit to know this.  Eve chose to believe evil of God. 

[joeb]

I think you're making a mistake in saying that the brass serpent represents anything material.  The message was look and live, a message of faith in God. It didn't make any sense that just looking at this brass serpent should cure anyone.  So, those without faith in God, for God was the one who told Moses to make the serpent and walk throughout the camp with it and that whosoever would look would live, refused to look even though just trying it would have saved their lives.  

Just so with us.  We must look(have faith) to live.  It makes no sense to those who don't believe.  It's pure foolishness to them.  It is, however, life to those who believe.  

This was a symbol of faith, about how faith determines whether or not we will do as God asks even when it appears to be complete foolishness to us.  Everyone knew the brass serpent had no power to heal.  Those that looked, that chose to believe God, lived because of the power of God. 

Just as sin is killing us, so looking in faith to Jesus cleanses us so that we can live.

[Robert]

​Baloney. 

They fell because Eve wanted to be like God.  That was the temptation that was held out.  Eat this and you will be like God.  Eat this and you will know much more than you know now.  God is withholding this from you and it is to your benefit to know this.  Eve chose to believe evil of God. 

​How could a sinless woman, with no bent-to-self, be tempted to be selfish?

Keep in mind why this side of the fall that we are tempted:

James 1:14 "each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed."

Mark 7:21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders...."

Romans 718 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh (sarx)) dwelleth no good thing"

Eve had no indwelling iniquity (that is, bent-to-self).  She had no impulse or deposition towards selfishness.  

Is there an answer?  No!  The Bible calls it "the mystery of iniquity", but she was not tempted as God is not tempted.  Eve, states Paul, was deceived. See 1 Tim 2:14

Ellen White:

"Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love (agape) which is the foundation of the divine government.:

Edited May 15, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

​Repentance is reaction to the gospel, so you got it backwards.  What God did was put your corporate life into Christ and by doing this He rewrote your history.  Hence "in Christ" you stand perfect before God's law.

Of course repentance is the reaction.  I'm not sure where the confusion is here.  What are you seeing that's backwards?

[pnattmbtc]

​There was no response...He did not succumb to temptation. Besides it wasn't Jesus's nature, it was ours.  Our fallen life and it's bent tempted Him, but not for a moment did He consent to sin.

Besides, you can't be tempted if you have nothing in you that is bent-to-self.   Adam and Eve fell, not because they were tempted, but because they were deceived.

​The Bible says that Adam was not deceived.

[pnattmbtc]

 

(​Don't know why this is responding to Robert, but this is in response the post about the serpent) I have a friend who had the idea that the serpent was not a lifted up serpent, but a defeated serpent.

Edited May 15, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[8thdaypriest]

NKJ  John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (NKJ)

[8thdaypriest]

How could Eve know that she wanted to "be like God" ?  I don't think that Eve KNEW much about God, at that point.  Satan introduced doubt.  That's all.  

Satan did not directly lie.  The Serpent didn't say, "Oh God won't really care if you eat just one piece, to see what it feels like." 

He implied something false concerning the character of God.  Which meant he was taking unfair advantage of one so newly in existence.    Did Eve KNOW that she was doing something that God had forbidden.  Of course.  She wasn't deceived about THAT.  But she was deceived into thinking that God had lied to them, and they would NOT really die. Either the snake is lying - and I will die (whatever that is), or God is lying, in which case He is selfish.   The Serpent ate some of the fruit and did not appear to be dieing.  Based on that "evidence" she decided to sample the fruit.      

Adam was NOT deceived.  He BELIEVED they WOULD DIE.  But he felt that he could not live without Eve, so he chose to share her fate. 

[Robert]

Of course repentance is the reaction.  I'm not sure where the confusion is here.  What are you seeing that's backwards?

​Repentance doesn't save.  We are already saved in Christ.  To repent means that you see yourself as a wretched sinner in need Christ's righteous (i.e., the truth as it is in Christ)

Edited May 16, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​The Bible says that Adam was not deceived.

​So Adam committed transgression of a known law?  Why would he rebel and do that?  He had no bent-to-self.  There was nothing in him that had a sinful propensity. He was made in the image and likeness of God.  So please explain how sinless Adam transgressed?

[LifeHiscost]

​So Adam committed transgression of a known law?  Why would he rebel and do that?  He had no bent-to-self.  There was nothing in him that had a sinful propensity. He was made in the image and likeness of God.  So please explain how sinless Adam transgressed?

​He disbelieved this Word and placed his welfare in the hands of Eve.

17Every generous act of giving and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from the Father who made the heavenly lights,g in whom there is no inconsistency or shifting shadow.....James 1

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[Robert]

​He disbelieved this Word and placed his welfare in the hands of Eve.

 

​How?  Why?  How can you be tempted to do wrong when you have nothing in your that is anti-agape (or anti-God)?

[LifeHiscost]

​How?  Why?  How can you be tempted to do wrong when you have nothing in your that is anti-agape (or anti-God)?

​7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;…

2 Thessalonians 2:7

In my dependance upon the Holy Spirit's guidance through the study of the Word, that is not long in taking place.

32"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.…Matt 24

To coin a phrase, Shabbat shalom.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

​For the mystery of lawlessness

​Well, that's right, only a more accurate version might say "the mystery of iniquity".  We don't know how or why a sinless beings like Lucifer, Adam and Eve could sin.  Maybe in heaven we will known?

And what's weird is that "iniquity will not arise a second time" after this mess in finalized. Apparently all beings in the universe have seen the effects of iniquity and therefore all, with their free wills, will never question God again.  

Edited May 16, 2015 by Robert

[LifeHiscost]

​Well, that's right, only a more accurate version might say "the mystery of iniquity".  We don't know how or why a sinless beings like Lucifer, Adam and Eve could sin.  Maybe in heaven we will known?

And what's weird is that "iniquity will not arise a second time" after this mess in finalized. Apparently all beings in the universe have seen the effects of iniquity and therefore all, with their free wills, will never question God again.  

​

And that not to mention the personal way iniquity treated the most Holy Love (Agape), offered to all creation, probably something that made temptation a thing of the past.

…33When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. 35And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One."…Luke 23

  Man’s need for a divine teacher was known in heaven....... The rich benevolence of God gave Him to our world, and to meet the necessities of human nature He took humanity upon Himself. To the

astonishment

of the heavenly host the eternal Word came to this world as a helpless babe. Fully prepared, He left the royal courts and mysteriously allied Himself with fallen human beings. “The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.”

John 1:14

.

{CT 259.2}

  [/quote]

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[8thdaypriest]

​How?  Why?  How can you be tempted to do wrong when you have nothing in your that is anti-agape (or anti-God)?

​You've wandered off topic again. 

[Robert]

Yes and no....The Bible says "He (God) made Him (Christ as God) to be sin"....What is sin?  It is an important question.  

Was Christ as our corporate head, sin?  No!  Sin is not a person.  The devil isn't sin, but he is wicked.  

Romans 8:3 clears this up: "for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh"

 

[joeb]

How could Eve know that she wanted to "be like God" ?  I don't think that Eve KNEW much about God, at that point.  Satan introduced doubt.  That's all.  

Satan did not directly lie.  The Serpent didn't say, "Oh God won't really care if you eat just one piece, to see what it feels like." 

He implied something false concerning the character of God.  Which meant he was taking unfair advantage of one so newly in existence.    Did Eve KNOW that she was doing something that God had forbidden.  Of course.  She wasn't deceived about THAT.  But she was deceived into thinking that God had lied to them, and they would NOT really die. Either the snake is lying - and I will die (whatever that is), or God is lying, in which case He is selfish.   The Serpent ate some of the fruit and did not appear to be dieing.  Based on that "evidence" she decided to sample the fruit.      

Adam was NOT deceived.  He BELIEVED they WOULD DIE.  But he felt that he could not live without Eve, so he chose to share her fate. 

​Adam and Eve regularly talked with God.  He used to come "in the cool of the day" to walk and talk with them.  Also, much is implied in Adam naming the animals.  God caused them to walk before him.  Do you think this is something that God left him to do completely alone?  To me there is much implied in the Bible about communication between Adam and Eve, and God.  Ellen White verifies this quite clearly.  

Furthermore your point assumes that Adam and Eve didn't really sit down and discuss their Creator or ask Him questions when He came to talk to them.  From what I know about human beings that is completely out of character for an intelligent human being.  Smart people are curious.  They ask questions.  They discuss things a lot with those around them.  We also know through Ellen White that angels frequently came and talked with them.  To assume there were not a lot of questions about God asked of heavenly beings is a real stretch to me.  I would have been filled with curiousity about my Creator and would have asked questions constantly of anyone who knew God.  Also, God's nature was displayed in all of the creation around them.  Sin didn't mar anything.  There was nothing there to come between them and the knowledge of God.   

[pnattmbtc]

"NKJ  John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (NKJ)"

The serpent which was lifted up was a defeated serpent is the idea.  This wouldn't be a contradiction to the text as the text doesn't say what the serpent itself looked like (it could be a dead serpent, or one which looks like the typical picture we see related to medicine, or something else), right?

 

Edited May 19, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

"Satan did not directly lie. "

Sure he did.  He said, among other lies, "ye shall not surely die," as direct a lie as is possible.

[pnattmbtc]

"Repentance doesn't save.  We are already saved in Christ.  To repent means that you see yourself as a wretched sinner in need Christ's righteous (i.e., the truth as it is in Christ)"

Robert, I wrote that the goodness of God leads us to repentance.  Do you disagree with this?

[pnattmbtc]

The Bible says that Adam was not deceived.

​You (Robert) responded "So Adam committed transgression of a known law?  Why would he rebel and do that?  He had no bent-to-self.  There was nothing in him that had a sinful propensity. He was made in the image and likeness of God.  So please explain how sinless Adam transgressed?"

You're getting all this from the fact that the Bible says Adam was not deceived?  Do you disagree with the fact that the Bible says that Adam was not deceived?

[Robert]

Robert, I wrote that the goodness of God leads us to repentance.  Do you disagree with this?

​No...but what saves is what Christ did 2000 years ago.  That love...that agape, leads us to accept Him once we've reached the age of accountability. 

[Robert]

​You (Robert) responded "So Adam committed transgression of a known law?  Why would he rebel and do that?  He had no bent-to-self.  There was nothing in him that had a sinful propensity. He was made in the image and likeness of God.  So please explain how sinless Adam transgressed?"

You're getting all this from the fact that the Bible says Adam was not deceived?  Do you disagree with the fact that the Bible says that Adam was not deceived?

​He wasn't deceived like Eve.  Adam sinned by default.  Let me explain:

Eve had already fallen...so her agape had already taken a u-turn towards self. Adam loved Eve more than himself, so I believe that in his mind he chose to die with her.  But the moment he did this he turned his back on God, the source of his agape and immortality. He then became bent towards self also.

So the problem is this action left God out of the picture.  The result of his action was that the Spirit of God vacated Adam and in this vaccum Satan polluted the human race, in Adam, with self-love (a u-turn agape). 

Edited May 19, 2015 by Robert