Made Him to be sin

[joeb]

If salvation is just about erasing the record of my sins, then I don't even NEED to know about the Father.  According to Robert and Samie, Christ DIED, and by that ACT all sins of all human beings were erased forever. 

But salvation is about me receiving the indwelling Spirit of Christ, so that I will NOT WANT to sin against the Father any longer. 

Why would I CONSENT to this indwelling, by a divine Being I neither know about, nor feel any need of?  But IF I see the goodness of the Father, thru His Son, THEN I will desire the indwelling.  I will BELIEVE in the goodness of God, and in His love for me.  He demonstrated that love, thru Jesus.   

It is ABOUT saving me from sinning, not just from the record of my past sins.  It's about my rehabilitation.  It's about my healing. 

If a convict is found NOT GUILTY of the crime he actually committed, what does that do for him, or for society?  He will just continue to commit crimes.  He is not rehabilitated.  His mind is unchanged. 

​-Great post, 8thday.  If the ability and desire to save us from sin, to change our characters to parallel God's character, and thus save us from the pain of the results of continual sinning and to cause us to glorify God through this change in us, is not good news then what is it?  I see it as very good news, and thus, as the Gospel is, literally in the Bible, good news it is part and parcel of the Gospel.   

[joeb]

​Hi, pnattmbtc;

Not answering for him, but since I have the same position as Robert's in the use of Matt 24:14, please consider this:

The gospel popularly being preached to the world teaches that people need to first believe before they can be attached to Christ and written in the book of life. This simply means that the gospel people hear requires people to believe first to be attached to Christ. Indirectly, the preacher is teaching that while apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe to be attached to Christ.

But Christ Himself said that apart from Him, we can do NOTHING (John 15:5). Quite opposite to what the preachers teach.

This is why Robert & I are of the position that the gospel Christ wanted preached before He comes again is not the one being popularly preached.

 

​Ellen White disagrees with you.  I'll give you a quote here that shows how completely she disagrees with.  You can quote her where she seems to agree with you, but in making her agree with you you will be making her out to be in conflict with herself.  That's dangerous ground for those who claim to believe in the inspiration of Ellen White.

Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He knew that His sacrifice had been accepted by the Father, and until He had received the assurance from God Himself that His atonement for the sins of His people had been full and ample, that through His blood they might gain eternal life. Jesus immediately ascended to heaven and presented Himself before the throne of God, showing the marks of shame and cruelty upon His brow, His hands and feet. But he refused to receive the coronet of glory, and the royal robe, and He also refused the adoration of the angels as He had refused the homage of Mary, until the Father signified that His offering was accepted.

He also had a request to prefer concerning His chosen ones upon earth. He wished to have the relation clearly defined that His redeemed should hereafter sustain to heaven, and to His Father. His church must be justified and accepted before He could accept heavenly honor. He declared it to be His will that where He was, there His church should be; if He was to have glory, His people must share it with Him. They who suffer with Him on earth must finally reign with Him in His kingdom. In the most explicit manner Christ pleaded for His church, identifying His interest with theirs, and advocating, with love and constancy stronger than death, their rights and titles gained through Him.

God’s answer to this appeal goes forth in the proclamation: “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Every angelic commander obeys the royal mandate, and Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain; and that lives again a triumphant conqueror! echoes and re-echoes through all heaven. The innumerable company of angels prostrate themselves before the Redeemer. The request of Christ is granted; the church is justified through Him, its representative and head. Here the Father ratifies the contract with His Son, that He will be reconciled to repentant and obedient men, and take them into divine favor through the merits of Christ. Christ guarantees that He will make a man “more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.” All power in heaven and on earth is now given to the Prince of life; yet He does not for a moment forget His poor disciples in a sinful world, but prepares to return to them, that He may impart to them His power and glory. Thus did the Redeemer of mankind, by the sacrifice of Himself, connect earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God (The Spirit of Prophecy 3:202, 203).

Notice the portion that I bolded.  God will be reconciled with repentant and obedient men and taking them into divine favor through the merits of Christ.  The contract between Christ and His Father says nothing about justifying all men.  It specifically says that only those who are repentant and believing will be reconciled with the Father.  

[8thdaypriest]

Here is part of a post I made in "Born Justified?" 

CONCERNING "THE BODY" OF CHRIST:

Colossians 1:18 "He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything." (NRS)

Colossians 1:24 "I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church."

Ephesians 1:22  "And He [God the Father] put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, (NAU)

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. (NIV)

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, (NRS)

Ephesians 5:30 & 32 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. ...  This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (NKJ)

Paul does not say that Christ "gave himself up for" the whole world.  It says he "gave himself up for her" - meaning His bride - His church. 

Jesus is NOT the savior of the WHOLE WORLD.    He is NOT going to "save" the whole world.  He will SAVE "His church" - His bride - His body - all of those who will become part of His bride through faith.   

ONLY those who believe are "betrothed"  to Christ (2 Cor. 11:2).  Only those who continue in faith, will actually become His "wife" at the "marriage supper of the Lamb".  

I don't understand WHY Samie and Robert keep saying that every human being was corporately "in Christ", when He died.  From what I found,  only "the church" was "in Him" when He died.  The word "all"  in 2 Cor 5:14 refers to "all of those who would believe". 

[pnattmbtc]

 

​Ellen White disagrees with you.  I'll give you a quote here that shows how completely she disagrees with.  You can quote her where she seems to agree with you, but in making her agree with you you will be making her out to be in conflict with herself.  That's dangerous ground for those who claim to believe in the inspiration of Ellen White.

Notice the portion that I bolded.  God will be reconciled with repentant and obedient men and taking them into divine favor through the merits of Christ.  The contract between Christ and His Father says nothing about justifying all men.  It specifically says that only those who are repentant and believing will be reconciled with the Father.  

​

My 2 cents.

First of all, Samie and Robert are, in general, not saying the same thing.  They have some points of agreement, which involve the following:
1.All babies, if they died as a baby, would go to heaven.
2.Matt. 24:14 is referring to a gospel having to do with coporate or forensic justification (they don't use these terms, but these are the commonly used terms for the ideas they are presenting)

The forms of what they present differ, as Samie emphasizes the importance of overcoming, but Robert does not.

Regarding reconciliation (I'm expressing my own idea now), there is a corporate aspect (e.g. 2 Cor. 5, and, to quote Ellen White DA 660 "To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life") and an individual aspect.  As far as the individual aspect is concerned, there needs to be a response on the part of the believer, or reconciliation cannot take place.

The parts I am most disagreeing with in regards to Samie and Robert are:
1.Regarding babies going to heaven, I agree with what Ellen White wrote.
2.I disagree that the gospel should be limited only to forensic justification.
3.I disagree that the most important part of the gospel deals with the law at all.  To my way of thinking, the gospel is primarily about God.

[Robert]

​This response doesn't work.  First of all, Jesus said "this gospel" in reference to words He, Jesus, was saying, so He couldn't have been referring to the future words of some as yet unnamed person.  Secondly, Paul would be horrified with the idea that he was thought to have been teaching a Gospel that Jesus Christ didn't teach.  That what Paul thought he was teaching what Christ taught comes though throughout Paul's epistles.

​Please explain to me, using the gospels, how Christ assumed your corporate life 2000 years ago.  Paul explains this, but the gospels do not.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​

3.I disagree that the most important part of the gospel deals with the law at all.  To my way of thinking, the gospel is primarily about God.

​Why did Christ, as our corporate man, die the 2nd death?  What demanded that death?

[LifeHiscost]

​Why did Christ, as our corporate man, die the 2nd death?  What demanded that death?

​Because He took the penalty for the world's  sin. All the world was destined to die the 2nd death and only the death of God the Son, unblemished by sin could be sufficient provide life for the undeserving.

22In fact, according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified with blood. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.23That is why the Tabernacle and everything in it, which were copies of things in heaven, had to be purified by the blood of animals. But the real things in heaven had to be purified with far better sacrifices than the blood of animals.

24For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf. 25And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal. 26If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age^k to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.

27And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, 28so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.....Hebrews 9

 

16“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.....John 3

…4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.…Isaiah 53

…3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,…Romans 6

…46and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem....Luke 24

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

​Why did Christ, as our corporate man, die the 2nd death?  What demanded that death?

​I DO NOT believe that Jesus Christ died "the second death". 

There IS NO resurrection from "the second death". 

The "second death" is "the lake of fire".  Jesus was NOT thrown into the "lake of fire".   If He had been, then He could not have been resurrected, because the "lake of fire" consumes all trace of the person/angel.  There is nothing left, which God could use to resurrect. 

In the Sanctuary, the Lamb was first killed and then burned on the altar.  The lamb symbolized the “Lamb of God” - Jesus the Christ, who died a sinner’s death - cut off from God, so that we may be spared this death. Jesus DIED (he was killed) - but He was NOT CONSUMED IN FIRE.   Neither was his "spirit".  He said, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." 

    The sacrifice also symbolized the final end of the wicked.  They will DIE and THEN THEY WILL BE CONSUMED IN FIRE.  David lamented the apparent success of the wicked until he entered the Sanctuary.  Then he “understood what would be their end” (Psa. 73:3-17).
 
        Psalm 37:20  “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

    NOTE: Some translations read: “like the glory of the fields.”
                        To a shepherd, this meant lambs - not crops or flowers.

I DO BELIEVE that God the Father TREATED His own Son, as if He was guilty and deserved death.  He withdrew His spirit presence from His Son - from "with" Him, and from "within" Him.  This is what caused His death.   BECAUSE - if the Father had continued to indwell His Son, and the Son never sinned - He would have lived forever.  He would NEVER have died.  

The Bible does  not say that Jesus died "the second death".      Not sure if you are getting that idea from Mrs. White.

[Robert]

​1.Regarding babies going to heaven, I agree with what Ellen White wrote.
2.I disagree that the gospel should be limited only to forensic justification.

​1] Ellen White said the final word resides with the Bible.  So you need to prove your position from the Bible, not the lesser light.

2] The gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ.  If you add anything pertaining to mankind to this truth you automatically pervert the gospel. 

Edited May 23, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​Because He took the penalty for the world's  sin. All the world was destined to die the 2nd death and only the death of God the Son, unblemished by sin could be sufficient provide life for the undeserving.

1] What demands the 2nd death or the penalty for sin?

2] While Jesus as our corporate man never sinned, the humanity that He assumed was our fallen life indwelt with our bent.  Notice I did not say "his bent" , but our bent.  So Christ as the son of man assumed OUR sinful nature with its temptations.  I take it you have a problem with this, right?  If so what's your argument against this? 

Edited May 23, 2015 by Robert

[LifeHiscost]

1] What demands the 2nd death or the penalty for sin?

2] While Jesus as our corporate man never sinned, the humanity that He assumed was our fallen life indwelt with our bent.  Notice I did not say "his bent" , but our bent.  So Christ as the son of man assumed OUR sinful nature with it's temptations.  I take it you have a problem with this, right?  If so what's your argument against this? 

​I'll have to get back to you later on this Robert. I have read somewhere in inspired writings Jesus came to this earth to prove that Adam and Eve could have lived a faultless life, from creation in the strength they had before their fall, something satan accused God of not providing. One reason Jesus came was to prove satan to be a liar and also to reveal our Father without flaw from eternity.

8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever....Hebrews 13

 The Majesty of heaven in tears! the Son of the infinite God troubled in spirit, bowed down with anguish! The scene filled all heaven with wonder. That scene reveals to us the exceeding sinfulness of sin; it shows how hard a task it is, even for Infinite Power, to save the guilty from the consequences of transgressing the law of God.

Jesus

, looking down to the last generation, saw the world involved in a deception similar to that which caused the destruction of Jerusalem. The great sin of the Jews was their rejection of Christ; the great sin of the Christian world would be their rejection of the law of God, the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. The precepts of Jehovah would be despised and set at nought. Millions in bondage to sin, slaves of Satan, doomed to suffer the

second death

, would refuse to listen to the words of truth in their day of visitation. Terrible blindness! strange infatuation!

{GC 22.2}

  [/quote]

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

​Please explain to me, using the gospels, how Christ assumed your corporate life 2000 years ago.  Paul explains this, but the gospels do not.

​Have you stopped beating your wife? (Please answer yes or no).  You're asking me to answer a question like this.  You're the one who is making an assertion.  You shouldn't be asking me to prove an assertion you're making at all, let alone restrict how you want me to do it.

If you have some position which requires Paul to be teaching something different than Christ, I think this is the strongest possible evidence that there is something wrong with your thinking.  *Paul* didn't have the idea that he was preaching a different Gospel than what Christ taught.  This is evident throughout Paul's epistles.  Paul didn't teach anything different than what Christ taught.  They both taught the same Gospel, the Gospel that Paul says that anyone who would teach a different Gospel should be accursed.

Paul and Christ are not at odds with one another.

[pnattmbtc]

​Why did Christ, as our corporate man, die the 2nd death?  What demanded that death?

​Why do you think the death was "demanded"?  Where did Christ teach this?  Christ says why He died; why isn't that an adequate answer?

[pnattmbtc]

​I DO NOT believe that Jesus Christ died "the second death". 

There IS NO resurrection from "the second death". 

The "second death" is "the lake of fire".  Jesus was NOT thrown into the "lake of fire".   If He had been, then He could not have been resurrected, because the "lake of fire" consumes all trace of the person/angel.  There is nothing left, which God could use to resurrect. 

In the Sanctuary, the Lamb was first killed and then burned on the altar.  The lamb symbolized the “Lamb of God” - Jesus the Christ, who died a sinner’s death - cut off from God, so that we may be spared this death. Jesus DIED (he was killed) - but He was NOT CONSUMED IN FIRE.   Neither was his "spirit".  He said, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." 

    The sacrifice also symbolized the final end of the wicked.  They will DIE and THEN THEY WILL BE CONSUMED IN FIRE.  David lamented the apparent success of the wicked until he entered the Sanctuary.  Then he “understood what would be their end” (Psa. 73:3-17).
 
        Psalm 37:20  “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

    NOTE: Some translations read: “like the glory of the fields.”
                        To a shepherd, this meant lambs - not crops or flowers.

I DO BELIEVE that God the Father TREATED His own Son, as if He was guilty and deserved death.  He withdrew His spirit presence from His Son - from "with" Him, and from "within" Him.  This is what caused His death.   BECAUSE - if the Father had continued to indwell His Son, and the Son never sinned - He would have lived forever.  He would NEVER have died.  

The Bible does  not say that Jesus died "the second death".      Not sure if you are getting that idea from Mrs. White.

​This is off topic (but, again, so what; most of what we're writing is off topic), but it appears to me in what you're writing that you think of the fire as being literal (but I could be misunderstanding you).  Have you considered the possibility that the fire is not literal?

[pnattmbtc]

 

​I'll have to get back to you later on this Robert. I have read somewhere in inspired writings Jesus came to this earth to prove that Adam and Eve could have lived a faultless life, from creation in the strength they had before their fall, something satan accused God of not providing. One reason Jesus came was to prove satan to be a liar and also to reveal our Father without flaw from eternity.

8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever....Hebrews 13

 

​Here's one:

Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men can not keep the law of God. Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan’s charges. (Signs of the Times, January 16, 1896)

[LifeHiscost]

 

​Here's one:

​

Thanks, pnattmbtc. That is probably where my reasoning originated and I'm satisfied that Jesus didn't take our fallen nature when He came the first time as a Babe, from this description from the Bible.

…4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned....John 15

When Jesus was here the first time, the supernatural feats He exercised could only have come from a heart, either prefect from the first or as was the case of the disciples, cleansed with the blood of Jesus.

48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect....Matthew 5

If Jesus, the first time He came, had the same nature that Adam had after the fall He could not have said that about Himself since a bent toward evil or sin is of the devil

30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me....John 14

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[Robert]

​Why do you think the death was "demanded"?  Where did Christ teach this?  

​The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20: 11; Lev. 18: 5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" (Deut. 27: 26). (EGW) 

Deut 4:13 He (Christ, the giver of the law) declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

"the law brings about wrath" Rom 4:12

Deut 17:2 "If there is found among you, within any of your gates which the Lord your God gives you, a man or a woman who has been wicked in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing His covenant,...5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has committed that wicked thing, and shall stone to death that man or woman with stones. 

Deut 21:22 "If a man has committed a sin deserving of death (i.e., the 2nd death, God abandonment), and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree...."  Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree")

Ex 35:1 "These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day." 

Numbers 15:3 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day (he was going to kindle a fire). 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. 

Deut 22:22 "If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die"

Deut 21:8 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the  elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious , he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard . 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die...."

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law (obedience under law) are under the curse: for it is written , cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law (the Pentateuch) to do them. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2015 by Robert

[8thdaypriest]

​This is off topic (but, again, so what; most of what we're writing is off topic), but it appears to me in what you're writing that you think of the fire as being literal (but I could be misunderstanding you).  Have you considered the possibility that the fire is not literal?

​

I'm going to start a new thread on this topic.

[8thdaypriest]

​

Thanks, pnattmbtc. That is probably where my reasoning originated and I'm satisfied that Jesus didn't take our fallen nature when He came the first time as a Babe, from this description from the Bible.

…4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned....John 15

When Jesus was here the first time, the supernatural feats He exercised could only have come from a heart, either prefect from the first or as was the case of the disciples, cleansed with the blood of Jesus.

48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect....Matthew 5

If Jesus, the first time He came, had the same nature that Adam had after the fall He could not have said that about Himself since a bent toward evil or sin is of the devil

30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me....John 14

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

​ONCE AGAIN:

Human physical nature - WITHOUT the indwelling of the Divine nature - is carnal.  "God is love."  He is the ONLY source of love.  Therefore HE - dwelling within a human being, changes the nature of that human, so that he/she CAN obey the "law of love". 

Adam and Eve HAD "the indwelling".  The "indwelling" DOES NOT FORCE love.  It enables love.  WHEN Adam fell, he LOST in "indwelling".  After that, the "indwelling" was only given in small amounts --- UNTIL Christ Jesus.  "For the Father gives not the spirit by measure unto Him" (Jn 3:34).   In THIS SENSE - a human with the full and perfect INDWELLING - Christ was "the last Adam". 

How MANY times did Jesus say it???  "My works are NOT MINE."  "My doctrine is NOT MINE."   "But the Father who dwells in Me does the works. (Joh 14:10 NKJ)  "Men of Israel, here these words;  Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God to you, by miracles, wonders and signs which God did through Him in your midst. (Acts 2:22). 

In Jesus last prayer to His Father, He prayed for "I in them, and You in me".  So THAT is the formula.  God His Father "IN" Christ, and Christ "IN" us.  He is the vine.  We draw our nourishment/strength FROM the vine.  Without that nourishment, we are CARNAL (which means flesh) only.  

Jesus took physical human nature.  Period.    But he was INDWELT by His Father.  THAT is HOW He overcame sin perfectly.   He was perfectly/fully INDWELT - just as Adam was before the fall. 

EVERY TIME you post that Jesus did not take the fallen nature, I'm going to post this. 

Jesus was INDWELT by the spirit of His Father.   We are indwelt (if we ask) by the spirit of Christ.  THAT IS HOW we are enabled to love. 

Tomorrow is Pentecost.  A good day to pray for the INFILLING. 

Edited May 23, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[LifeHiscost]

​ONCE AGAIN:

Human physical nature - WITHOUT the indwelling of the Divine nature - is carnal.  "God is love."  He is the ONLY source of love.  Therefore HE - dwelling within a human being, changes the nature of that human, so that he/she CAN obey the "law of love". 

 

Jesus was INDWELT by the spirit of His Father.   We are indwelt (if we ask) by the spirit of Christ.  THAT IS HOW we are enabled to love. 

Tomorrow is Pentecost.  A good day to pray for the INFILLING. 

​13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.…Rom 7

  What love! What amazing condescension! The King of glory proposed to humble Himself to

fallen

humanity! He would place His feet in Adam’s steps.

He would take man's fallen nature

 ,and engage to cope with the strong foe who triumphed over Adam. He would overcome Satan, and in thus doing He would open the way for the redemption from the disgrace of Adam’s failure and fall, of all those who would believe on Him.

{Con 18.1}

  [/quote]

This idea immediately above almost makes me agree with Robert about having "a bent toward sin". Since the term "indwelling" is not found in the Word but is found in the SoP 130 times in reference to the Christ, the presence of God, the Savior and glory, I'm going to have to rest in this thought below, which agrees with the Word.

Adam’s Fall Inexplainable—In what consisted the strength of the assault made upon Adam, which caused his fall? It was not indwelling sin; for God made Adam after His own character, pure and upright. There were no corrupt principles in the first Adam, no corrupt propensities or tendencies to evil. Adam was as faultless as the angels before God’s throne. These things are inexplainable, but many things which now we cannot understand will be made plain when we shall see as we are seen, and know as we are known (Letter 191, 1899).{1BC 1083.6} 

 

…6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;…2 Thessalonians 2

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

​The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20: 11; Lev. 18: 5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" (Deut. 27: 26). (EGW) 

Deut 4:13 He (Christ, the giver of the law) declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.

"the law brings about wrath" Rom 4:12

Deut 17:2 "If there is found among you, within any of your gates which the Lord your God gives you, a man or a woman who has been wicked in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing His covenant,...5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has committed that wicked thing, and shall stone to death that man or woman with stones. 

Deut 21:22 "If a man has committed a sin deserving of death (i.e., the 2nd death, God abandonment), and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree...."  Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree")

Ex 35:1 "These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: 2 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day." 

Numbers 15:3 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day (he was going to kindle a fire). 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. 

Deut 22:22 "If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die"

Deut 21:8 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the  elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious , he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard . 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die...."

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law (obedience under law) are under the curse: for it is written , cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law (the Pentateuch) to do them. 

 

 

 

 

​When you say that the law demands death, you're talking about the ceremonial law?  Would you please construct an argument?  I don't know what your thinking is.  Here's my thinking: Gal 3:13 is referring to the blessings and cursings of Deuteronomy 28, which, as can be seen from the passage, are cause and effect.  So if you obey the law, good things will happen to you, but if you disobey the law, bad things will happen to you.  Put another way, God alone is the source of life, and if we separate ourselves from Him (which is what living for self does), we will die.  We need Christ to set us free from the curse of the law because in Christ there is life - He is the life - and it is through Christ's life that we can be set free from living for self.  From a corporate standpoint, when Adam fell, he needed a Savior.  As soon as there was sin, there was a Savior.  Since we were all in Adam, by saving Adam, Christ saved the world.  Christ became the second Adam, creating a new humanity.  As through one man, Adam, the entire world was impacted in a negative way, so in a positive way the whole world was impacted, but even more so, in Christ.

I could have constructed this a little better, but there are some basic ideas.  However, this is just a part of the story, and not the most important part.  The most important part of the story is that God has been accused by the evil on of being unfair and selfish, etc., and by misrepresenting God's character, Satan deceived both men and angels to win followers for himself.  Christ put the lie to Satan's accusations by revealing the truth about God.  We can be drawn back to God by believing the revelation of Christ.

The masterpiece in all of this is the cross.  The same means by which God vindicates His character (justifies Himself, one could say), is the means by which He justifies man.  By the cross, God can be just and the justifier of he who believes in Jesus.

[pnattmbtc]

1.Regarding babies going to heaven, I agree with what Ellen White wrote.
2.I disagree that the gospel should be limited only to forensic justification.

​1] Ellen White said the final word resides with the Bible.  So you need to prove your position from the Bible, not the lesser light.

2] The gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ.  If you add anything pertaining to mankind to this truth you automatically pervert the gospel. 

[joeb]

​

​

My 2 cents.

First of all, Samie and Robert are, in general, not saying the same thing.  They have some points of agreement, which involve the following:
1.All babies, if they died as a baby, would go to heaven.
2.Matt. 24:14 is referring to a gospel having to do with coporate or forensic justification (they don't use these terms, but these are the commonly used terms for the ideas they are presenting)

The forms of what they present differ, as Samie emphasizes the importance of overcoming, but Robert does not.

The parts I am most disagreeing with in regards to Samie and Robert are:
1.Regarding babies going to heaven, I agree with what Ellen White wrote.
2.I disagree that the gospel should be limited only to forensic justification.
3.I disagree that the most important part of the gospel deals with the law at all.  To my way of thinking, the gospel is primarily about God.

​I have no problem with what I bolded in your post.  The reason being is that when Christ agreed to become man and present Himself as the payment for our debt the Father accepted that and gave man a probation to accept the gift offered by Christ. 

As the sinbearer, and priest and representative of man before God, He [Christ] entered into the life of humanity, bearing our flesh and blood. The life is in the living, vital current of blood, which blood was given for the life of the world. Christ made a full atonement, giving His life as a ransom for us. He was born without a taint of sin, but came into the world in like manner as the human family. He did not have a mere semblance of a body, but He took human nature, participating in the life of humanity.  According to the law Christ Himself gave, the forfeited inheritance was ransomed by the nearest of kin. Jesus Christ laid off His royal robe, His kingly crown, and clothed His divinity with humanity, in order to become a substitute and surety for humanity, that dying in humanity He might by His death destroy him who had the power of death. He could not have done this as God, but by coming as man Christ could die. By death He overcame death. The death of Christ bore to the death him who had the power of death, and opened the gates of the tomb for all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.—Letter 97, 1898.

All that God and Christ could do has been done to save sinners. Transgression placed the whole world in jeopardy, under the death sentence. But in heaven there was heard a voice saying, I have found a ransom. Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was made sin for fallen man. “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Christ gave Himself as a ransom. He laid off His royal robe. He laid aside His kingly crown, and stepped down from His high command over all heaven, clothing His divinity with humanity that He might carry all the infirmities and bear all the temptations of humanity.—Letter 22, 1900.

He has paid the ransom money for the whole world. All may be saved through Him. He will present those who believe on Him to God as loyal subjects of His kingdom.  He will be their Mediator as well as their Redeemer.—Manuscript 41, 1896.

Through type and promise God “preached before the gospel unto Abraham.”  Galatians 3:8. And the patriarch’s faith was fixed upon the Redeemer to come. Said Christ to the Jews. “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day; and he saw it, and was glad.” John 8:56, R.V., margin. The ram offered in the place of Isaac represented the Son of God, who was to be sacrificed in our stead. When man was doomed to death by transgression of the law of God, the Father, looking upon his Son, said to the sinner, “Live: I have found a ransom.”  Patriarchs and Prophets p. 154

We--the human race-- were allowed to live after Adam sinned because of the ransom Cbrist was going to pay on the cross.  That ransom paid the debt for the entire world.  That is a corporate payment.

[pnattmbtc]

I find this software difficult to work with.  I wrote a long post for Robert, but all that got posted was what Robert himself work.  I'll have to wait until I'm motivated to try again :(.

[joeb]

Interestingly enough, the Bible links atonement and ransom.

Exodus 30:11 ¶And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
  12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the Lord, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, whenthou numberest them.^*n7
  13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs:) an half shekel shall be the offering of the Lord.
  14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord.
  15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls.^*n8*n9
  16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before theLord, to make an atonement for your souls.