pnattmbtc Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 We--the human race-- were allowed to live after Adam sinned because of the ransom Cbrist was going to pay on the cross. That ransom paid the debt for the entire world. That is a corporate payment. I agree with this, although I suspect these words may mean something different for me than for you. Without going here into detail, a key question to me is why sin results in death. Is it an organic thing, by which I mean, sin has death wrapped up in it, or to put it another way, is death the consequence of sin, in a cause and effect way? I believe it is, like the effect gravity has if you jump out a window. If we view death as an imposed penalty, then our paradigm will be different. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
joeb Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 I agree with this, although I suspect these words may mean something different for me than for you. Without going here into detail, a key question to me is why sin results in death. Is it an organic thing, by which I mean, sin has death wrapped up in it, or to put it another way, is death the consequence of sin, in a cause and effect way? I believe it is, like the effect gravity has if you jump out a window. If we view death as an imposed penalty, then our paradigm will be different. It is most likely both. Sin is self-destructive. Lucifer's actions, Adam's actions, and the human race's actions prove this. But, it is also a judgment from God. That judgment is a kindness because an eternal sinner would be the most miserable of human beings.... God will destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire, but that is something that will eliminate the possibility of eternal sinners. It also eliminates forever the possibility of the sin virus spreading to other worlds, which is also a kindness. The Bible is just too clear on the idea that God will kill when it is the right thing to do. He ordered the Israelites to destroy the heathen nations around them. He sent His angels to kill in specific instances. He gave Samson the power to kill when he destroyed the building he was standing in. There are just too many instances like this. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
LifeHiscost Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 It is most likely both. Sin is self-destructive. Lucifer's actions, Adam's actions, and the human race's actions prove this. But, it is also a judgment from God. That judgment is a kindness because an eternal sinner would be the most miserable of human beings.... God will destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire, but that is something that will eliminate the possibility of eternal sinners. It also eliminates forever the possibility of the sin virus spreading to other worlds, which is also a kindness. The Bible is just too clear on the idea that God will kill when it is the right thing to do. He ordered the Israelites to destroy the heathen nations around them. He sent His angels to kill in specific instances. He gave Samson the power to kill when he destroyed the building he was standing in. There are just too many instances like this. Perhaps part of the reason for misunderstandings is that a more proper rendering of the sixth commandment is not kill. 13“You must not murder....Exodus 20 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Perhaps part of the reason for misunderstandings is that a more proper rendering of the sixth commandment is not kill. 13“You must not murder....Exodus 20 God is Love! Jesus saves! mur·der ˈmərdər/ noun noun: murder; plural noun: murders 1. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. "the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer" synonyms: killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; manslaughter; literaryslaying "a brutal murder" informal a very difficult or unpleasant task or experience. "my first job at the steel mill was murder" synonyms: hell, hell on earth, a nightmare, an ordeal, a trial, misery, torture, agony "driving there was murder" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- kill1 kil/ verb verb: kill; 3rd person present: kills; past tense: killed; past participle: killed; gerund or present participle: killing 1. cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing). "her father was killed in a car crash" synonyms: murder, take/end the life of, assassinate, eliminate, terminate, dispatch, finish off, put to death, execute; More slaughter, butcher, massacre, wipe out, annihilate, exterminate, mow down, shoot down, cut down, cut to pieces; informalbump off, polish off, do away with, do in, knock off, take out, croak, stiff, blow away, liquidate, dispose of, ice, snuff, rub out, waste, whack, smoke; euphemisticneutralize; literaryslay "gangs killed twenty-seven people" get rid of or destroy completely, especially in large numbers. "there is every possibility all river life would be killed off for generations" (of a writer) bring about the “death” of a fictional character. 2. put an end to or cause the failure or defeat of (something). "the committee voted to kill the project" synonyms: destroy, put an end to, end, extinguish, dash, quash, ruin, wreck, shatter, smash, crush, scotch, thwart; More informalput the kibosh on, stymie, scuttle "this would kill all hopes of progress" veto, defeat, vote down, rule against, reject, throw out, overrule, overturn, put a stop to, quash, squash "an opposition attempt to kill the bill" stop (a computer program or process). informal switch off (a light or engine). synonyms: turn off, switch off, stop, shut off/down, cut "Noel killed the engine" informal delete (a line, paragraph, or file) from a document or computer. informal consume the entire contents of (a bottle containing an alcoholic drink). (in tennis and similar games) hit (the ball) so forcefully that it cannot be returned. (in soccer or other ball games) make (the ball) stop. neutralize or subdue (an effect or quality). "the sauce would kill the taste of the herbs" synonyms: alleviate, assuage, soothe, allay, dull, blunt, deaden, stifle, suppress, subdue "a shot to kill the pain" 3. informal overwhelm (someone) with an emotion. "the suspense is killing me" overexert oneself. "I killed myself carrying those things home" synonyms: exhaust, wear out, tire out, overtax, overtire, fatigue, weary, sap, drain, enervate, knock out "you must rest or you'll kill yourself" used hyperbolically to indicate that someone will be extremely angry with (another person). "my parents will kill me if they catch me out here" cause pain or anguish to. "my feet are killing me" synonyms: hurt, cause pain to, torture, torment, cause discomfort to; More be painful, be sore, be uncomfortable "my feet were killing me" 4. pass (time, or a specified amount of it), typically while waiting for a particular event. "when he reached the station, he found he actually had an hour to kill" synonyms: while away, fill (up), occupy, pass, spend, waste "we had to kill several hours at the airport" noun noun: kill; plural noun: kills 1. an act of killing, especially of one animal by another. "a lion has made a kill" synonyms: death blow, killing, dispatch, finish, end, coup de grâce "the wolf was moving in for the kill" an animal or animals killed, either by a hunter or by another animal. "the vulture is able to survey the land and locate a fresh kill" synonyms: prey, quarry, victim, bag "the hunter's kill" God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
8thdaypriest Posted May 24, 2015 Author Posted May 24, 2015 "He could be just, and the justifier of those who believe in Jesus." Interesting thought. Jesus was made to appear the vilest of sinners, worthy of execution, "cursed of God", so that His Father could be revealed as just - something that He WAS all along. That is His character. But was not clearly "seen" by men or by angels, until that day. And for those who "saw" - who "understood" - the revelation, He also became "the justifier". Quote 8thdaypriest
Samie Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 1. All sinners were justified FREELY through redemption: KJV Romans 3:23-24 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 2. Redemption occurred when Jesus died: Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Therefore, all were justified when Jesus died. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 It is most likely both. Sin is self-destructive. Lucifer's actions, Adam's actions, and the human race's actions prove this. But, it is also a judgment from God. That judgment is a kindness because an eternal sinner would be the most miserable of human beings.... God will destroy sin and sinners in the lake of fire, but that is something that will eliminate the possibility of eternal sinners. It also eliminates forever the possibility of the sin virus spreading to other worlds, which is also a kindness. The Bible is just too clear on the idea that God will kill when it is the right thing to do. He ordered the Israelites to destroy the heathen nations around them. He sent His angels to kill in specific instances. He gave Samson the power to kill when he destroyed the building he was standing in. There are just too many instances like this. The second paragraph is a different subject than my question, which has to do with the second death, not the first. If the second death is cause and effect, then the judgement of God would simply be to allow this to happen. Your insight that an eternal sinner would be the most miserable of human beings is spot on, leading to the conclusion that the judgment is an act of mercy on the part of God. If we view death as cause and effect, then the function of the law may be understood as descriptive rather than prescriptive. In other words, the law makes things clear (e.g. what sin is, and what righteousness is), but doesn't cause things to happen. The second death happens because the transgressor of the law separates himself from God, in whom alone is life, and the result of this action can only be death. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 "He could be just, and the justifier of those who believe in Jesus." Interesting thought. Jesus was made to appear the vilest of sinners, worthy of execution, "cursed of God", so that His Father could be revealed as just - something that He WAS all along. That is His character. But was not clearly "seen" by men or by angels, until that day. And for those who "saw" - who "understood" - the revelation, He also became "the justifier". I've been thinking of Romans 3:21-29 (especially vss 25, 26) as bringing out that the same thing which justifies man justifies God, or, one could put it the other way around, that same thing that justifies God justifies man. "Justifies" when applied to God would mean "vindicates His character" or something similar (e.g. "declares His righteousness") and "justifies man" would mean "sets man right". The whole purpose of the mission of Christ was to set and keep man right by the revelation of God (ST 1/20/90). The revelation of God also wins the Great Controversy (I should really put this the other way around, starting with the Great Controversy first). This is a wonderful theme. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 1. All sinners were justified FREELY through redemption: KJV Romans 3:23-24 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 2. Redemption occurred when Jesus died: Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Therefore, all were justified when Jesus died. 1.What about the resurrection? (especially Romans 4;25) 2.You are using the word "justification" in different ways, but not making this clear, it doesn't seem to me. One can speak of corporate justification, a corporate act, involving the human race, which doesn't involve faith. But "justification by faith" involves faith, and is not a corporate act. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
8thdaypriest Posted May 24, 2015 Author Posted May 24, 2015 (edited) Mankind was granted continued life (probation) BECAUSE God the Father and Christ had promised that the Son of God would become a human being, to be tested to the most extreme degree by Satan. THAT is God's grace. But that did NOT set every human being "just" or "right" before God. I don't see that continued physical life for the race called mankind, during which individuals would be tested (to see if they would respond to the spirit of God or resist), can be put in the same category with individuals being "set right" with God (justified), "by grace through faith". How many verses have we seen in this thread, that say salvation is "by grace through faith" ???? A couple dozen at least. Infants CANNOT believe or come to faith. Robert keeps saying that "all mankind" was "in Christ" as "His body" when He died on the cross. I would like to see a verse or two, saying just that. Because I posted 5 verses that say "the church" is "His body" and is regarded by God as having "died with Him" - by faith. Robert quotes verses out of context, and applies the statement to all of mankind, when the context clearly applies the statement ONLY to "the church" or to "those who have believed". Edited May 24, 2015 by 8thdaypriest joeb 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
Robert Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Jesus was made to appear the vilest of sinners, worthy of execution, "cursed of God", I answered the above yesterday, now it is gone! I really do not care for this software.... pnattmbtc 1 Quote
pnattmbtc Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 I answered the above yesterday, now it is gone! I really do not care for this software.... There are some things we agree on. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
joeb Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 I've been thinking about the main theme of this thread. "He was made to be sin". I really think this has to do with what the Father did. He laid upon Christ the sins of all of us. Christ carried all our sins and guilt. The guiltless became the guilty. So, I don't think Christ actually became sin. He became the "guiltholder" for us. He became the one who could pay our debt of guilt. We didn't have to be "in Christ" for this to happen for this was a transaction according to the law of inheritance. Christ just had to be one of us to pay off this debt. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
pnattmbtc Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I've been thinking about the main theme of this thread. "He was made to be sin". I really think this has to do with what the Father did. He laid upon Christ the sins of all of us. Christ carried all our sins and guilt. The guiltless became the guilty. So, I don't think Christ actually became sin. He became the "guiltholder" for us. He became the one who could pay our debt of guilt. We didn't have to be "in Christ" for this to happen for this was a transaction according to the law of inheritance. Christ just had to be one of us to pay off this debt. What do you mean by "pay off this debt"? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Jesus was made to appear the vilest of sinners, worthy of execution, "cursed of God", These are merely metaphors and make no real sense..... Jesus as God took upon His sinless nature our fallen, sinful nature as our corporate head. That's basically what Ellen White states. That corporate life is a shared life that belongs to all of us because we all came from Adam after the fall. Christ assumed that life and therefore our shared life died in Him and the law is satisfied. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 These are merely metaphors and make no real sense..... Jesus as God took upon His sinless nature our fallen, sinful nature as our corporate head. That's basically what Ellen White states. That corporate life is a shared life that belongs to all of us because we all came from Adam after the fall. Christ assumed that life and therefore our shared life died in Him and the law is satisfied. The "law is satisfied" is also a metaphor and makes no real sense. Sentient beings can be satisfied, not laws. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
joeb Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 The second paragraph is a different subject than my question, which has to do with the second death, not the first. If the second death is cause and effect, then the judgement of God would simply be to allow this to happen. Your insight that an eternal sinner would be the most miserable of human beings is spot on, leading to the conclusion that the judgment is an act of mercy on the part of God. If we view death as cause and effect, then the function of the law may be understood as descriptive rather than prescriptive. In other words, the law makes things clear (e.g. what sin is, and what righteousness is), but doesn't cause things to happen. The second death happens because the transgressor of the law separates himself from God, in whom alone is life, and the result of this action can only be death. The second paragraph deals with sin having a judgment against it and sinners levied by God, and that death is that punishment. The first death is just an end to the probation God has granted us so we can choose to be for or against Him. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
joeb Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 What do you mean by "pay off this debt"? You're kidding me, right? You don't understand that we owe a debt due to sin? That we are sold into slavery and held hostage and that we cannot pay the price of our release? Study the word debt in the Bible. If then you can't see that we owe a debt that we cannot pay, and that only Jesus could, is the basis of the plan of salvation then we'll talk more. The law of inheritance is the concept that explains all of this. Read Galations 5:3 and explain why the man who chooses circumcision is in debt to do the entire law and why through grace rather than self-works there is no debt to the sinner. Then explain who paid the debt due to the broken law for the one who accepts the sacrifice of Christ? Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
joeb Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 What do you mean by "pay off this debt"? Here's a short quote from Ellen White on this debt. It comes at the subject from a tangent but it clearly shows that we sinners owe a debt. Christ took human nature upon him, and became a debtor to do the whole law in behalf of those whom he represented. Had he failed in one jot or tittle, he would have been a transgressor of the law, and we would have had in him a sinful, unavailing offering. But he fulfilled every specification of the law, and condemned sin in the flesh; yet many ministers repeat the falsehoods of the scribes, priests, and Pharisees, and follow their example in turning the people away from the truth.{ST January 16, 1896, par. 4} Notice that Christ became a "debtor" as soon as He became a human being. His indebtedness was wholly concerned with obedience, in which we as a race wholly failed. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Robert Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 The "law is satisfied" is also a metaphor and makes no real sense. Sentient beings can be satisfied, not laws. How about legally fulfilled.... Quote
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) joeb:The second paragraph deals with sin having a judgment against it and sinners levied by God, and that death is that punishment. The first death is just an end to the probation God has granted us so we can choose to be for or against Him. When you're responding to something, please quote the thing that you are responding to. The point I was making is that there is a cause and effect relationship between sin and death (the second death). I said the second paragraph (where you're talking about God's judging some specific sins in this life, leading to death (the first death) didn't have to do with the point I was making, because I didn't see the connection. I still don't. Even if we accepted for the sake of argument your premise (about certain sins having a judgment against it and sinners levied by God, where the punishment is death) what does that have to do with my point that there is a cause and effect relationship between sin and death? Edited May 28, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) What do you mean by "pay off this debt"? joeb:You're kidding me, right? Why would you think I was kidding you? Should I think that the way you think about this is the only view there is? Is that what you think, that there's only one view on this question? If you think there is only view, I can understand why you would think I'm kidding, but if there's more than one view, why would you think I know what your view is? joeb:You don't understand that we owe a debt due to sin? There's more than one view to this question. Why would I know what your view is? joeb:That we are sold into slavery and held hostage and that we cannot pay the price of our release? This means different things to different people. Study the word debt in the Bible. If then you can't see that we owe a debt that we cannot pay, and that only Jesus could, is the basis of the plan of salvation then we'll talk more. The law of inheritance is the concept that explains all of this. Read Galations 5:3 and explain why the man who chooses circumcision is in debt to do the entire law and why through grace rather than self-works there is no debt to the sinner. Then explain who paid the debt due to the broken law for the one who accepts the sacrifice of Christ? I still have the same question as before. What do you mean by "pay off this debt"? C. S. Lewis wrote: The central Christian belief is that Christ's death has somehow put us right with God and given us a fresh start. A good many theories have been held as to how it works; what all Christians are agreed on is that it does work. I agree with this. I'm asking you what you're theory is. There is no amount of study I could do which could answer this question. Edited May 28, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 How about legally fulfilled.... Where do you see the law saying this? I've asked you about this several times, I think, without an explanation (my apologies if I missed something you said). Specifically, I believe you have Gal. 3:13 in mind. If there's some other Scripture you have in mind, please let me know what it is. What I've said is that Gal. 3;13 is referring to Deut 28, discussing the blessing and the cursings, and these, in context, can be seen to be cause and effect, not legally demanded results. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 "He could be just, and the justifier of those who believe in Jesus." Interesting thought. Jesus was made to appear the vilest of sinners, worthy of execution, "cursed of God", so that His Father could be revealed as just - something that He WAS all along. That is His character. But was not clearly "seen" by men or by angels, until that day. And for those who "saw" - who "understood" - the revelation, He also became "the justifier". Yes, and nicely put. The first I know of to bring this out is A. Graham Maxwell, in discussions about Romans. The "larger view" is the Great Controversy, where God is seen as being just, or righteous (same word in the Greek). God "declares His righteousness" by the same means by which He justifies those who respond to His declaration, which is the revelation of Christ, especially His sacrifice. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Here's a short quote from Ellen White on this debt. It comes at the subject from a tangent but it clearly shows that we sinners owe a debt. Notice that Christ became a "debtor" as soon as He became a human being. His indebtedness was wholly concerned with obedience, in which we as a race wholly failed. Thank you for that quote. Here's another one: The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes.That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be. Said Christ, “Neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.” The love of Jesus, expressed for the fallen race in his life of self-denial and sufferings, is the manifestation of the Father’s love for a sinful, fallen world. Christ endured shame and grief and death for those who despised his love and trampled upon his mercy. He paid the debt of man’s transgression upon the cross of Calvary with his own precious blood. The men of his own nation, the leaders of the people, were so ensnared by the deceptions of Satan that the plan of redemption for a fallen race seemed to their minds indistinct and unexplainable. Man was God’s workmanship, made after his image, endowed with talents, and fitted for a high destiny. But Satan has worked to obliterate the divine image, and to impress his own image instead of the image of God in man’s nature. Jesus condescended to humble himself, to take human nature, and by uniting divinity with humanity, he proposed to elevate man in the scale of moral value. All heaven was poured out in the gift of God’s dear Son. Through faith in him the sinner could be justified, and God could yet be just in jus-tifying the sinner; for Christ had become a propitiation for the sins of the repentant soul. The only plan that could be devised to save the human race was that which called for the incarnation, humiliation, and crucifixion of the Son of God, the Majesty of heaven. After the plan of salvation was devised, Satan could have no ground upon which to found his suggestion that God, because so great, could care nothing for so insignificant a creature as man. The redemption of man is a wonderful theme, and the love manifested to the fallen race through the plan of salvation, can be estimated only by the cross of Calvary. The depth of this love even angels can-not sound. (ST 1/20/90) Sorry for the length here, but it's one of my favorites. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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