Made Him to be sin

[Robert]

​Here's the converted Paul:  1 Tim 1:15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: (ASV)

Question:  "Of whom I am chief", is that phrase present tense or past?

 

​

SC 

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart (mind, i.e., mindset or character) that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ.

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as

30

men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem (pride in his law performance) was gone.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Is it your understanding that a Christian (one who has believed in Christ and has eternal life) is "under sin", controled by his love of self?

You didn't answer my question.  I'm happy to answer your questions, but please answer mine too. 

[pnattmbtc]

​Here's the converted Paul:  1 Tim 1:15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: (ASV)

Question:  "Of whom I am chief", is that phrase present tense or past?

He was speaking present tense, but not based on his performance, but because of his recognition of his responsibility in regards to Christ's death.  Any Christian should have the same attitude.  Paul, at the same time, wrote that he was willing to be accursed for the good of those who were persecuting him.  This is the height of agape.  Yet regardless of having reached these heights, he still felt he was the "chief of sinners" (as well he should) because he perceived that Christ died for *his* sins. 

[pnattmbtc]

  Have all of the saved had to believe what you've been writing?  If not, how were they saved?

Robert:​ "The reason you aren't under condemnation is because you have accepted your corporate death in Christ, i.e., the gospel."

No, but when the gospel is brought home it's best to accept it and not reject it for "another gospel"

How were they saved then? 

[Robert]

You didn't answer my question.  I'm happy to answer your questions, but please answer mine too. 

And you haven't answered my question:  How perfect must your character be in order to enter the pearly gates?   

[Robert]

He was speaking present tense, but not based on his performance, but because of his recognition of his responsibility in regards to Christ's death.  Any Christian should have the same attitude.  Paul, at the same time, wrote that he was willing to be accursed for the good of those who were persecuting him.  This is the height of agape.  Yet regardless of having reached these heights, he still felt he was the "chief of sinners" (as well he should) because he perceived that Christ died for *his* sins. 

​No, it's because he wasn't measuring up to Christ and therefore he recognized he was a sinner.  Do you think that you are sinless?  I ask this because your theology seems to centered in perfectionism.

 

 

[Robert]

 

How were they saved then? 

​They are saved by the gospel they can't comprehend due to their ignorance. Christ saves though "the gospel", yet He accepts folks where they are at.  

[Robert]

So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. [Ellen White]

Notice that the experience of sanctification isn't perfectionism.  As long as we live there will be no point we can say we "have fully attained".  If we did attain we would be as perfect as God is perfect.

None of the apostles and prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived the nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of  Christ.

Notice that these men have placed their trust, not in their good deeds, but Christ's righteousness, i.e., His imputed righteousness.

So will it be with all who behold Christ. The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.

Notice that ultimately, our only sufficiency is where?  "In Christ"!  That's the gospel!  Do we grow?  Yes?  Are we perfect as God is perfect?  No!  Is the law of God content with our good works?  No!  Why?  Because all of us are falling short of the glory of God (His love).  

Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am​ holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous words.

Hence,  Paul is right:  "There is none righteousness, no, not even one."

The apostle Paul had been caught up to the third heaven and had seen and heard things that could not be uttered, and yet his unassuming statement is: "Not as though I had already attained (to perfection), either were already perfect: but I follow after." Philippians 3:12. Let the angels of heaven write of Paul's victories in fighting the good fight of faith. Let heaven rejoice in his steadfast tread heavenward, and that, keeping the prize in view, he counts every other consideration dross. Angels rejoice to tell his triumphs, but Paul makes no boast of his attainments. The attitude of Paul is the attitude that every follower of Christ should take as he urges his way onward in the strife for the immortal crown.

Yes, we grow....This prove our faith and allows Christ to vindicate us "in Himself" perfect before God.  So again what saves is our position "in Christ" through faith.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, I asked you a question, which you didn't answer, but instead asked me a question, which I answered.  When I pointed out you didn't answer my question, you cut out the question, and asked me another question, but still didn't answer the question.

Here is the question I would like you to answer:

Is it your understanding that a Christian (one who has believed in Christ and has eternal life) is "under sin", controlled by his love of self?

[8thdaypriest]

Just curious, why do you think this?  That is, why do you think the Israelite sinner would have looked at things in this way?  Are you basing this on something explicitly in Scripture, or on something you've read about what sacrifice meant for the Israelites?

You wrote:

Can you provide evidence for this idea?  Are you thinking of a Suzerain covenant? or something else? 

​The idea of blood sacrifice, began at the gate of Eden.  After the flood of Noah, it was corrupted as it passed into different cultures.  The concept and practice of "the blood covenant" is documented from archeology and records of Ancient Middle Eastern cultures.  The LORD did not hit Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Israel,  with a totally "new" thing.  He adapted what they knew, to what he wanted them to learn - those being "His ways".    He repeatedly said, do "not be like the Babylonians" or "like the Egyptians", or "like the Canaanites". 

I will recommend the books by H. Clay Trumbull:  "The Salt Covenant",  "The Threshold covenant", and "The Blood Covenant".  I think those are the BEST sources. 

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks for the reference.  Have you read, "The Everlasting Covenant" by E. J. Waggoner?  It's available to read online.

[pnattmbtc]

​No, it's because he wasn't measuring up to Christ and therefore he recognized he was a sinner.  Do you think that you are sinless?  I ask this because your theology seems to centered in perfectionism.

 

 

​It appears in your mind there are two ideas of the Gospel:

1.What Robert thinks

2.Legalism

or, equivalently

1.What Robert thinks

2.Perfectionism

Where have I written anything perfectionistic?

[pnattmbtc]

Robert:Rom 4:9 For we have previously charged both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; ....19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.  What Paul is saying is it doesn't matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile because you are under sin (singular), i.e., the love of self (iniquity) and therefore you are guilty before God. Rom 2:12 "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be condemned by the law..."Rom 4:15 "the law brings wrath"Rom 7:10 "The very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." Clearly the law brings the curse, the 2nd death. 
 

Me:I don't see how the texts you are quoting answer my question.  For convenience, I'll repeat what I'm asking here, and then explain why I don't see that my question is being answered.  You wrote, "Jesus as God .... our shared life died in Him" and conclude "the law is satisfied", so, if this is true, there should be something somewhere that says something like "the law demands X" such that X would be satisfied by having our shared life dying in Christ.

The first texts that you quoted I see as establishing the point that we all need Christ, and we need Christ because we are unrighteous.  This is how I understand Paul's argument in the texts you cited, up to but not including Romans 4:15 and Romans 7:10.

These last two texts seem closer to dealing with the question I'm asking.  The first one says, "the law brings wrath", and the second that that which was intended to bring life actually resulted in death.  These are interesting texts.  I'll explain my understanding of them.

How does the law work wrath?  I understand the law works wrath when it is disobeyed.  How this works is explained at length in Deut. 28.  Paul also explains how it works in Romans 1.

In what way was the law intended to bring life?  This is a very interesting question, as, at first glance, it might appear that God gave the law in order that people might obey it to obtain life, but this makes no sense, as God has always known that the only way we can have life is through Christ.  So it must be the case that God gave the law with the intention of leading people to Christ, in whom they could find life.  Why did it actually result in death?  Because people attempted to obtain life by keeping it, but life can only come through faith in Christ as a free gift, so this misuse of the law could only result in death.

None of these texts, as far as I can see, are saying anything that would suggest that the solution to some problem would be that our corporate life died in Christ thus satisfying the law.

Please address this Robert.

[Robert]

Please address this Robert.

​Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM 

11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The just by faith shall live." 

Keep in mind EGW said the law in Galatians is especially the moral law.

12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO DOES THEM BY THEM SHALL HE LIVE." 

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "

 

 

Under law you obtain life by keeping the law.  To fail brings the "curse of the law", which is God abandonment or the 2nd death.  The same is said again in Rom 10:5 

 

 

"For Moses writes that the man who does the righteousness which is based on law shall by that righteousness live."

  

 

 

And Paul, in Romans 7:10 says, "the commandment, which was to result in life, resulted in death".  So again, the same idea. Hence the law says, "obey and live", "disobey and die".

 

 

Under grace those justified by faith obtain life because in Christ's holy history the just have legally answered the law "in Christ Jesus."

 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

​It appears in your mind there are two ideas of the Gospel:

1.What Robert thinks

2.Legalism

or, equivalently

1.What Robert thinks

2.Perfectionism

Where have I written anything perfectionistic?

​Do you obtain life by obedience to the law?

[Robert]

Here is the question I would like you to answer:

Is it your understanding that a Christian (one who has believed in Christ and has eternal life) is "under sin", controlled by his love of self?

​He is not controlled by it like the unbeliever, but neither is he totally free of it.  If you really loved your neighbor as you love yourself your neighbor would have your possessions. Why?  Because your ambition would be his happiness and prosperity, and not your own.  

1 Cor 10:24 "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

[pnattmbtc]

Please address this Robert.

     Quote
?Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM 

     Quote
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The just by faith shall live." 

Keep in mind EGW said the law in Galatians is especially the moral law.

     Quote
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO DOES THEM BY THEM SHALL HE LIVE." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "
  Under law you obtain life by keeping the law.  To fail brings the "curse of the law", which is God abandonment or the 2nd death.  The same is said again in Rom 10:5   "For Moses writes that the man who does the righteousness which is based on law shall by that righteousness live."    And Paul, in Romans 7:10 says, "the commandment, which was to result in life, resulted in death".  So again, the same idea. Hence the law says, "obey and live", "disobey and die".  Under grace those justified by faith obtain life because in Christ's holy history the just have legally answered the law "in Christ Jesus."

Here's the question I asked, "You wrote, "Jesus as God .... our shared life died in Him" and conclude "the law is satisfied", so, if this is true, there should be something somewhere that says something like "the law demands X" such that X would be satisfied by having our shared life dying in Christ."

What you wrote here is addressing this.  It looks to me that the point you are making is that righteousness cannot be obtained by the works of the law.  That doesn't address my question, however, which is dealing with the demands of the law being satisfied by having our share life dying in Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

​Do you obtain life by obedience to the law?

When I ask you a question, please answer the question.  Then, if you wish, ask questions of your own.  My question was, where did I write anything perfectionistic?

[Robert]

...there should be something somewhere that says something like "the law demands X" such that X would be satisfied by having our shared life dying in Christ."

​Rom 7:4 "you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

Why did you, your corporate life, die to the law in Christ?

Rom 7:6 "by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law"

Why has the believer been released from the law?  Because our corporate life died in Christ (see also Rom 6:6) and therefore as far as the law concerned justice has been served.  Hence "in Christ" the law is satisfied.

 

Edited June 5, 2015 by Robert

[Samie]

How many verses have we seen in this thread, that say salvation is "by grace through faith" ????  A couple dozen at least.   Infants CANNOT believe or come to faith. 

Can you please explain why will there be infants in the new earth?

Robert keeps saying that "all mankind" was "in Christ" as "His body" when He died on the cross.   I would like to see a verse or two, saying just that. 

NKJ Ephesians 2:11-19   11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands --  12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.  14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,  15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,  16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.  17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.  18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.  19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God

[Samie]

Because I posted 5 verses that say "the church" is "His body" and is regarded by God as having "died with Him" - by faith. 

Robert quotes verses out of context, and applies the statement to all of mankind, when the context clearly applies the statement ONLY to "the church" or to "those who have believed". 

The Church is the Body of Christ. To be in the Body of Christ is to be ATTACHED to Christ. Before the ATTACHING, one is SEPARATE from Christ. And separate from Him, Christ said one can do NOTHING (John 15:5).

Believing is exercising faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Fruit comes AFTER one is ATTACHED.

IF, as alleged, one has to first believe to be attached, then Fruit comes BEFORE one is ATTACHED.

[8thdaypriest]

I would say that believing (even just a little) is the MOMENT OF ATTACHMENT.   It is the MOMENT of responding to the "knocking". 

As the father of the boy said, "LORD I believe.  Help thou mine unbelief"  (Mark 9:24).   It's the "grain of mustard seed". 

Walking in faith - that's what one does AFTER attachment. 

Edited June 5, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[pnattmbtc]

​Rom 7:4 "you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

Why did you, your corporate life, die to the law in Christ?

Rom 7:6 "by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law"

Why has the believer been released from the law?  Because our corporate life died in Christ (see also Rom 6:6) and therefore as far as the law concerned justice has been served.  Hence "in Christ" the law is satisfied.

 

​

You are here giving an interpretation of Romans 7, by no means the only possible interpretation, or even a common one, which is assuming the very point about which I'm asking you for proof.  You are assuming that this text is saying that the demands of the law are satisfied by our shared corporate life dying in Christ.  For example, in regards to Romans 7:4, you ask, "Why did you, your corporate life, die to the law in Christ?"  So you are assuming that when Paul said "you also died to the law through the body of Christ," what he means was "You, your corporate life, died to the law in Christ."  This is an interesting remark, but it's not what I'm asking, as this is providing an answer to a problem, but my question concerns the problem.

My question is, what Scripture text suggests that there is a problem which could be answered by our shared corporate life dying in Christ?  That is, where does the law demand a *corporate* life as a penalty?

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, God has given to each one a measure of faith, so everyone has the ability to exercise faith.  So everyone has the ability to become a part of the body of Christ, connected to the living vine, if one so chooses.

[Robert]

​My question is, what Scripture text suggests that there is a problem which could be answered by our shared corporate life dying in Christ?  That is, where does the law demand a *corporate* life as a penalty?

Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law (i.e.,an explicit knowledge of the law) will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 

Judged by the law, what does that mean? 

Gal 3:1 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things (i.e., keeps the rules) will by them live." 

The law doesn't ask you to believe in it.  The law demands perfection.  The law demands spotless obedience in thought, deed and action in order to obtain life, but failure brings the curse (God abandonment.)

​Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we (Jews) any better (then the Gentiles) ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin (i.e., are bent-to-self). 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; ....19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2015 by Robert