Robert Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. {Ellen White RH, May 7, 1901 par. 9} Did you get that? The law demands perfect, unblemished obedience. It condemns sin in all its forms. To the sinner the law brings a curse - the wrath of God. So the law demands two things: "Obey & live" "Disobey & die" Even Ellen White states the same: The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20: 11; Lev. 18: 5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" (Deut. 27: 26). Quote
Robert Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 Samie, God has given to each one a measure of faith, so everyone has the ability to exercise faith. So everyone has the ability to become a part of the body of Christ, connected to the living vine, if one so chooses. Infants do not have this ability. You are wrong! Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) Infants do not have this ability. You are wrong! Samie wasn't talking about infants. The Scripture say that to each was in given a measure of faith. What do you think this means? Edited June 6, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law (i.e.,an explicit knowledge of the law) will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. Judged by the law, what does that mean? Gal 3:1 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things (i.e., keeps the rules) will by them live." The law doesn't ask you to believe in it. The law demands perfection. The law demands spotless obedience in thought, deed and action in order to obtain life, but failure brings the curse (God abandonment.) Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we (Jews) any better (then the Gentiles) ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin (i.e., are bent-to-self). 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; ....19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. "Judged by the law" means "judged according to the law". You are referring to the law as if it were alive, a sentient being. But it's not. The law cannot ask anything, or demand anything. God can do these things. Every law reflects the mind of its creator. The law of God reflects the mind of God, which makes sense, because it is a transcript of His character. So if we speak of the law "demanding" something, that can only mean that God is demanding something. What does God "demand"? He demands righteousness, which is conformity to His character, but this demand is not an arbitrary one, but simply reality. It's not possible for anyone to happy in heaven, in God's presence, without having a character which is in harmony with God's character, just as on earth, two people cannot be happy together, unless they have characters which are in harmony with each other. Since we cannot obtain characters by ourselves, since we have sinful natures and know nothing but sin, God has given us His Son: The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. (DA 762) I'm writing this in response to what you wrote, but what you wrote, still does not address my question, which is on what basis would you assert that the law is satisfied by a shared, corporate life? The emphasis of the question is on the word "corporate". Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) I'm writing this in response to what you wrote, but what you wrote, still does not address my question, which is on what basis would you assert that the law is satisfied by a shared, corporate life? The emphasis of the question is on the word "corporate". You came from Adam. You are bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh. That life, your essence, died in Christ. Thus the law is satisfied, which means it sees you as dead in Christ, and yet perfect in Him as a new creation in the heavenly places. You are having a hard time understanding the basics of the gospel. Perhaps it's you character perfectionism blinding a knowledge of the gospel - the truth as it is in Christ? Edited June 6, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 Samie wasn't talking about infants. The Scripture say that to each was in given a measure of faith. What do you think this means? Infants aren't given a measure of faith.....Accountability and faith go hand in hand. Quote
Samie Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 I would say that believing (even just a little) is the MOMENT OF ATTACHMENT. It is the MOMENT of responding to the "knocking". As the father of the boy said, "LORD I believe. Help thou mine unbelief" (Mark 9:24). It's the "grain of mustard seed". Walking in faith - that's what one does AFTER attachment. One can't believe without faith. Faith is fruit. Are you saying fruit comes first before attachment? Quote
Samie Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 Samie, God has given to each one a measure of faith, so everyone has the ability to exercise faith. So everyone has the ability to become a part of the body of Christ, connected to the living vine, if one so chooses. You said, everyone has the ability to exercise faith. Exercising faith is a spiritual act. Spiritual acts can only be done by the spiritually alive. The spiritually alive are those attached to Christ. Agree? If No, please explain why, citing text(s) if possible. Quote
Robert Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing the Good News, and people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ. I'm a 56 year old man. I can hear you if you speak to me, but if you are speaking in Chinese then I can't comprehend what you're telling me. Likewise an infant cannot understand you if you tell him the gospel. All he hears is blah, blah, blah... Edited June 6, 2015 by Robert Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 6, 2015 Author Posted June 6, 2015 One can't believe without faith. Faith is fruit. Are you saying fruit comes first before attachment? One does not "believe" - WITHOUT Christ. Christ is working - by knocking. When one "responds" to the LORD's knocking, he is NOT DOING THIS because it was just his own idea. The LORD's knocking - is "grace". The LORD protecting the human race from complete domination by Satan - is grace. I do NOT GET IT - why you continue to say that we must HAVE FAITH, in order to HAVE FAITH. A person who is thinking about whether there is a God, does not yet have any faith. He just wondering. He doesn't yet know the person. It's like a first date. He's HEARD how great this girl is, but he's never MET her. I can only relate my own experience. I had HEARD and HEARD and HEARD the Bible stories. I had READ portions of the Bible. But I felt NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER with God or Jesus. A friend sent me yet another book. After reading it, I really wanted to KNOW whether this great divine being existed. I went out for my power walk. As I walked, I started talking to this maybe existent Being. I said, "I want to know if You exist. But I can't just get it from books about You. Please - if You exist - show me. I want to see something, or feel something, or hear something." Instantly - I was OVERWHELMED with the awareness that I was LOVED - just absolutely LOVED. I had NEVER felt anything like that before!!!!! It was like something tangible, flowing over me, but nothing I could actually "see". I just felt it. I actually knelt on the sidewalk weeping with joy!! HE does exist!!!! And HE loves me!!!!!! WHEN this happened for me - I believed. I was "saved" AT THAT MOMENT. I KNEW that I wanted the gift HE was offering. AFTER this experience, I had to get a Bible and start the process of learning. AFTER this - I had to surrender things that were incompatible with my new "walk". BEFORE this experience - I did NOT have any faith. NONE! I didn't even know that God exists. How could I have faith in Him? The LORD gave me what I needed, in order for me to BELIEVE in Him. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted June 6, 2015 Author Posted June 6, 2015 Infants and young children, and the mentally handicapped, and all the pagans who were never reached by the missionaries - will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, as "the rest of the dead". Then they will continue their physical lives, learn about God, and choose whether they will serve Him or not. It's simple. It is JUST. It makes sense. No - it does not agree with EGW. And THAT is why most here will reject this idea. Quote 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 You came from Adam. You are bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh. That life, your essence, died in Christ. Thus the law is satisfied, which means it sees you as dead in Christ, and yet perfect in Him as a new creation in the heavenly places. You are having a hard time understanding the basics of the gospel. Perhaps it's you character perfectionism blinding a knowledge of the gospel - the truth as it is in Christ? Robert, do you think Ellen White understood the basics of the gospel? Or E. J. Waggoner? You seem to equate not agreeing with your as a lack of understanding. Do you think Ellen White and E. J. Waggoner had character perfectionism which was blinding their knowledge of the Gospel? What do you think justification by faith is? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 Robert: Infants aren't given a measure of faith.....Accountability and faith go hand in hand. So this would mean that Jesus Christ before the age of accountability didn't have faith. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 Samie, God has given to each one a measure of faith, so everyone has the ability to exercise faith. So everyone has the ability to become a part of the body of Christ, connected to the living vine, if one so chooses. Samie:You said, everyone has the ability to exercise faith. Exercising faith is a spiritual act. Spiritual acts can only be done by the spiritually alive. The spiritually alive are those attached to Christ. Agree? If No, please explain why, citing text(s) if possible. Romans 12:3 says to each one is given a measure of faith. Is it your point that everyone is spiritually alive and attached to Christ? What about those who fail to overcome? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
8thdaypriest Posted June 6, 2015 Author Posted June 6, 2015 So this would mean that Jesus Christ before the age of accountability didn't have faith. CORRECT! HE was an infant. Quote 8thdaypriest
Robert Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 I do not depend on Ellen White, Waggoner or Jones (both of these men left the church)....I must read and understand the Bible for myself. I cannot make them the measuring stick of truth otherwise I make them my popes... Quote
Robert Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) So this would mean that Jesus Christ before the age of accountability didn't have faith. The early years of Christ are a mystery. The only thing I know is that Christ as an infant was born spiritually alive. This simply means He was born with God's Spirit in control of His mind. Outside this truth it would be speculation. We are born spiritually dead: "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Edited June 6, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted June 6, 2015 Posted June 6, 2015 What about those who fail to overcome? What do you mean overcome? Are you speaking in perfectionistic terms again? Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 (edited) I do not depend on Ellen White, Waggoner or Jones (both of these men left the church)....I must read and understand the Bible for myself. I cannot make them the measuring stick of truth otherwise I make them my popes... I didn't that suggest you should depend upon them. I asked if you think they understood the basics of the gospel. Do you? Edited June 7, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 (edited) What do you mean overcome? Are you speaking in perfectionistic terms again? Do you mean is Samie speaking in perfectionistic terms? This is his idea. Do you think Ellen White and E. J. Waggoner spoke in perfectionstic terms? Ad hominem attacks are a sign one is on shaky ground. Edited June 7, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 So this would mean that Jesus Christ before the age of accountability didn't have faith. CORRECT! HE was an infant. Not all the time. That is, not all the time before the age of accountability was Jesus Christ an infant. He was a child the rest of the time. Surely as a child He was able to exercise faith. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 4 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: So this would mean that Jesus Christ before the age of accountability didn't have faith. The early years of Christ are a mystery. The only thing I know is that Christ as an infant was born spiritually alive. This simply means He was born with God's Spirit in control of His mind. Outside this truth it would be speculation. We are born spiritually dead: "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." What you're writing here is more speculative than what I wrote. I just asserted before the age of accountability, as a child, Jesus Christ exercised faith. Why you would find this speculative I don't know. You don't believe children can exercise faith? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 You don't believe children can exercise faith? Sure, at the age of accountability, Quote
Robert Posted June 7, 2015 Posted June 7, 2015 Do you mean is Samie speaking in perfectionistic terms? This is his idea. No, are you? The question was to you! Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 8, 2015 Posted June 8, 2015 No, are you? The question was to you! You should address it to Samie. It's his idea I was referencing. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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