Is sinless living in sinful flesh possible?

[Robert]

The following is an end-time issue:

-BC- RC

-TI- Reflecting Christ

-CN- 367

-CT- Wrestling with God to Victory

-PR- 04

-PG- 371

The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire.

God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial, is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; [:"red"]but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected."

[Robert]

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Robert said:

God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial, is as strong and tender as

in the days of their sunniest prosperity

;

[:"red"]but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed

, that the image of Christ

may be perfectly reflected

."

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Some notes to think on:

1] Upon until this point His children did not "perfectly reflected" the image of Christ.*

2] Note also their economic condition: They are no longer prosperous!

Now some questions:

A] Why does prosperity, in this world, hold back one perfectly reflecting the image of Christ?

B] Does prosperity have an element of "self" in this world that must be "consumed"?

C] Does this have any application to Christ's lack of prosperity?

D] Since we are justified solely on Christ's work of redemption, fulfilled some 2000 years ago, why does God want a people who perfectly reflect Jesus Christ?

Let's stick to these questions please.

Rob

* "All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He [Jesus] holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, [:"black"]in which there is no taint of earthly corruption.[:"red"] He [Jesus] gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts [:"black"]His own spotless righteousness [:"red"]. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable.

[Nicodema]

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Is sinless living in sinful flesh possible?

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[:"red"] NO. [/]

[Ron Lambert]

God seeks to perfect our faith, so it is whole-hearted. Remember this statement by Ellen G. White:

"Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those who shall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb." (Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, December 30, 1889, par. 4)

It is a significant point that is often overlooked, that Lucifer was a perfect and holy angel in the blissful environment of heaven when he invented sin, and brought about the fall of about one-third of the angels; and Adam and Eve were perfect beings without any sinful nature when they chose to sin (at least Adam did; Eve was deceived). So being perfect and sinless in nature are no guarantee against falling into sin.

This is the whole point of the controversy between God and Satan. God says creatures can only define righteousness according to the standard God sets, while Satan contended that beings that are holy in nature should not have to submit to any such external standard (law) of righteousness. God's standard of righteousness is self-sacrificing love, that seeks the good of others. Satan advocated holy beings relying upon their own holy natures, striving to become greater and greater (even at the expense of others), as if they could evolve into godhood and take God's place. The whole history of sin on earth has been allowed by God to demonstrate the outworking of these two viewpoints, so that God can be justified before all the intelligent creatures in the universe, and Satan be utterly disproven.

The reason why God does not change the physical, human nature of people who submit to Him, leaving them with defects of nature and inclinations of passion to contend with, is precisely to demonstrate that righteousness is not dependent upon our nature, but upon God's righteousness that is outside of us. This is why the doctrine of justification by faith utterly humiliates human pride, because we never get anything in us that makes us good in and of ourselves. Yet our hearts can be dramatically changed, our behavior can be wonderfully transformed, and we can be turned toward whole-hearted loyalty to God, all despite our having to wrestle with the continuing sinful tendences in our fallen human nature. The Bible tells us that our physical nature will not be transformed and glorified until the Second Coming of Jesus.

By waiting until then to remove the sinful human nature, God will have the exact demonstration He wants--one that confirms that true righteousness for any creature is not a matter of nature, it is a matter of faith (the whole-hearted attitude of mind) of creatures toward God. Furthermore, this truth is true even for the holy angels and intelligent beings on other worlds, who never fell. For eternity, the security of the universe can only be based on faith in God, not on reliance of creatures upon their own natures.

[Robert]

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Nicodema said:

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Is sinless living in sinful flesh possible?

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[:"red"] NO. [/]

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That's the way I think too...but I am not totally sure. If God does have a people who perfectly reflect His love it will not be a salvation issue. Perhaps to draw the undecided into His camp?

[Robert]

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Ron Lambert said:

"Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God.

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Hmmm?

[Ron Lambert]

Actully, Ellen G. White said that. I agree with it.

[Clio]

I would have said NO resoundingly a year ago. I'm not sure now. I don't think I can even articulate why I don't feel certain about it, but further study leads me to believe that it IS possible to be sinless in this flesh, even though the temptations and impulses remain.

It depends on what you do with those temptations and impulses and whether you wallow in them, wishing you could indulge, or whether you're horrified by them, and recognize them as originating outside of yourself.

So... While I long to say a resounding [:"red"] NO [/] I am beginning to suspect the answer may be a qualified "yes", and that it's NOT a salvation issue as long as by faith we are in Blood Covenant with the Lamb and thus with Abba.

Clio

[Ron Lambert]

When we talk about sinless living in sinful flesh, we need to remember there are two main definitions for sin given in the Bible. The most familiar one, 1 John 3:4, tells us that sin is the transgression of the law (or anomia, lawlessness). However, perhaps even more profound is the definition given in the last part of Romans14:23: "...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." We may halt doubtfully at the thought of being absolutely perfect compared to the law of God, which Jesus told us is spiritual, and extends even to thinking lustful thoughts. But must we also halt at the thought that we can ever be restored to whole-hearted faith in God? Does our sinful human nature make it impossible for us to be turned back to loyalty to God? Is FAITH impossible?

If we have allowed God to perfect our faith, so that our faith in Christ is whole-hearted, then surely we can trust God to provide us with whatever supernatural endowment of the Holy Spirit we need, whatever finishing of the work of grace in our hearts we need, to bring us to the point where we can stand at Christ's appearing. When the Latter Rain is poured out, it will surely make a difference in the experience of those who receive it. I would not underestimate how much the Holy Spirit can do for us. But neither would I dogmatically insist that those who receive the Latter Rain and the final, end-time seal of God it will bring, will become such supersaints that they will never err, never say anything inappropriate, never do anything hasty, never be misled even for a moment in the course they follow, never have to apologize. Somehow I feel it is unwise for us now even to attempt to spell out exactly what our experience will be then.

I do know that immediately after the question is asked in Rev. 6:17: "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" we read the answer in Rev. 7, where it describes those who receive the special, end-time seal of God. So they will be able to stand. It is important to note that they are able to stand because they have received this seal, and not because they are so good in themselves.

If we are justified by faith, santified by faith throughout our Christian life, shall we be perfected by our works at the final end? I believe that from beginning to end, we are saved entirely by faith, because only God is righteous.

[Dr. Shane]

From what I have understood, the saints will be perfected when probation closes. This is the period between the time Christ leaves the heveanly sancturary and returns to the earth. During that time the saints will have to be sinless because there will be no mediator for their sin.

[Robert]

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I believe that from beginning to end, we are saved entirely by faith, because only God is righteous.

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Romans 1:6 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just by faith shall live.”

Under grace we have eternal life through faith. Hence, the phrase literally means - "the justified through faith shall live."

The law's requirements are the extreme opposite. Paul addresses this in Gal 3:11-12:

Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them [the rules] by them he shall live.”

This same requirement can be seen in Romans 10:5....But first verse 4:"For Christ is the end of the law [the fulfillment of the law] for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Verse 5: For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall by that righteousness live!

Now some will say, “Wrong…faith without works is dead.” Okay…let’s look at this:

“A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” [James 2:23] Wasn’t Abraham already justified by faith prior to any works? Yes: “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Rom 4:3 Then does this contradict Paul’s statements?

NO! Abraham was justified by faith the moment he believed. However…that faith need to mature…it had to become unshakable. James tells us of Abraham’s deed that proved his faith:

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” [verse 21]

God promised Abraham that through his son Isaac would come the Messiah. Abraham’s faith in God’s promise was so unshakable that he was willing to put a knife into his son. “If Christ was to come through Isaac’s seed”, Abraham reasoned, “then God would have to raise Isaac from the dead.” That’s faith...unshakable faith!!!

Now look at James’ statement again: “A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Is James talking about works of the law? NO! He is talking about works of faith.

Now look at Paul’s statement: “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works….” [Rom 3:28] Is that what Paul stated? No…I left out “works of the law.”

Again: "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law."

James is saying that faith in God will produce works of faith….In Abraham’s case he was willing to put a knife in Isaac. In Rahab the harlot’s case she was willing to put her life on the line to save the two spies. That’s faith in action….

[Robert]

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Shane said:

From what I have understood, the saints will be perfected when probation closes. This is the period between the time Christ leaves the heveanly sancturary and returns to the earth. During that time the saints will have to be sinless because there will be no mediator for their sin.

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They might be without an mediator, but they still need a Savior. This issue is faith. When probation closes God's people will have a faith that is unshakable! The Bible says, "And they loved not their lives unto death." They aren't worried about dying because their trust is in the righteousness of Christ for their ticket to heaven.

Now let's say that their faith is so strong that they exhibit "the faith of Jesus"....Note I didn't say "faith in Jesus." I said, "the faith of Jesus." Since Christ's faith kept Him from sinning, maybe this group will cease from sin.

Even so, unlike Christ these people have sinned and are still condemned because they have indwelling sin (a sinful nature). So they still need a Savior. Yes, if they are not sinning, while still in the flesh, then Christ doesn't have to mediate.

My question is why this perfection? You can't tie it to salvation...

Probation has ended...so this group is full reflecting God's selfless love...but what good does it do...they can't attract the lost over to Christ....Their [the lost] doom is sealed because they persistently said no to God's love gift in Christ Jesus.

[Robert]

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Robert said:

Probation has ended...so this group is full reflecting God's selfless love...but what good does it do...they can't attract the lost over to Christ....Their [the lost] doom is sealed because they persistently said no to God's love gift in Christ Jesus.

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Hey...brainstorm...maybe they are reflecting Christ's life before probation ceases....That would make sense.

I mean...if you are on the fence post and you see two groups...one pharisaical...and one loving like Christ loves...who would you join?

[Dr. Shane]

What will be the sense in reflecting Christ's love in heaven? We will be how were were intended to be.

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Rev. 4:11

[Nicodema]

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Robert said:

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Nicodema said:

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Is sinless living in sinful flesh possible?

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[:"red"] NO. [/]

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That's the way I think too...but I am not totally sure. If God does have a people who perfectly reflect His love it will not be a salvation issue. Perhaps to draw the undecided into His camp?

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My thought is that perfectly reflecting His love does not necessarily have to equate to sinless perfection. And (in my thinking) absolute sinless perfection would mean that not even for one SECOND would we EVER have a "flesh reaction" to something. Now granted, I believe it is possible to become sufficiently self-disciplined to learn not to outwardly manifest one's reactions to things, particularly for those predisposed to being reserved in the first place (though people like myself have a harder time with this), but I do not believe it is possible to so control the hardwired, unconscious, biochemical responses of the brain as to guarantee one would NEVER, not even by a single THOUGHT for a single SECOND, have a sin-based reaction to something.

Now, I consider it progress in my life when -- just for one example -- I can catch myself having a negative or uncharitable train of thought and "correct" it in my mind and actively operate my mind so as to "flush out" the unwanted thoughts. But I cannot deny that said unwanted thoughts arose in my brain.

And if we define even that instantaneous flash of wrong thought/feeling as sin, then NO, I don't believe it's possible to live sinlessly in sinful flesh. I think that's why the better translations of the Bible state that those who are born of God do not practice sin, rather than that they never sin period.

I do believe it is possible to grow in discernment and resist temptation. I also believe that as we become different people those temptations gradually lose their enticement factor, though new temptations can arise with new experiences. For example, the person newly coming into power or position with others might suddenly newly experience temptation to misuse that position/authority to his own advantage -- whereas that was never a temptation before because he had not yet had the experience where it could be one.

Back to perfectly reflecting God's love -- to me it is just as much a "perfect" reflection of love to have someone genuinely, humbly say they they are sorry -- and mean it -- for something they did that was hurtful or wrong, as it is to have them never do such a thing in the first place. Both courses are evidence of the indwelling Spirit of Love; the only difference is one of those courses manifests when a mistake has been made. (If that makes sense at all...?)

[Yong T Tay]

Is sinless living in sinful flesh Possible?

Definitely impossible unless you are Jesus Christ Himself. Talking of Jesus Christ, Act 4:12 tell us "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

If we can have sinless living in sinful flesh then we would not need Jesus as our saviour, we would be saviours ourselves and Genesis 2:17 would be meaningless.

You see, Adam was not capable sinless living because his body was contaminated with "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" which would surely cause death, that is sinful flesh. Our natural born bodies were makeup of Adam's bones, flesh and blood. In other word, we live in Adam's body.

By believing and accepting Christ, God had already justified and sanctified us at the Cross 2,000 years ago. We are entitled to eternal life in Jesus Christ. Salvation had been completed at the Cross for the whole human race, but God does not force salvation on any body, and only those who deliberately refused Christ will be lost.

Sinless living is not a requirement for our salvation as Christ had already done the sinless living for us during His 33 1/2 years earthly ministry. Cheap Grace? No. We will continue to have a sinful living until the day we die because we are still living in Adam's body. At the resurrection, God will give us Christ's body to live in. Only then we are capable sinless living, because we live in Christ's body.

Shall we sin? God forbid. God expects us to keep the laws and do good works, not because of salvation, but because keeping the laws and doing good works are the RIGHT things to do. The just shall live by faith alone.

[Clio]

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Robert said:

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Shane said:

From what I have understood, the saints will be perfected when probation closes. This is the period between the time Christ leaves the heveanly sancturary and returns to the earth. During that time the saints will have to be sinless because there will be no mediator for their sin.

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They might be without an mediator, but they still need a Savior. This issue is faith. When probation closes God's people will have a faith that is unshakable! The Bible says, "And they loved not their lives unto death." They aren't worried about dying because their trust is in the righteousness of Christ for their ticket to heaven.

Now let's say that their faith is so strong that they exhibit "the faith of Jesus"....Note I didn't say "faith in Jesus." I said, "the faith of Jesus." Since Christ's faith kept Him from sinning, maybe this group will cease from sin.

Even so, unlike Christ these people have sinned and are still condemned because they have indwelling sin (a sinful nature). So they still need a Savior. Yes, if they are not sinning, while still in the flesh, then Christ doesn't have to mediate.

My question is why this perfection? You can't tie it to salvation...

Probation has ended...so this group is full reflecting God's selfless love...but what good does it do...they can't attract the lost over to Christ....Their [the lost] doom is sealed because they persistently said no to God's love gift in Christ Jesus.

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Every one of you from the above quoted post on, are missing it. And it's tied directly to Jesus Blood shed for us. This is what a Blood covenant walked out in it's fullness means. It's what Abraham, Isaac, and Abel understood, and Cain missed totally.

When you enter into a Blood Covenant with Abba, through the shed Blood of Jesus, and understand what that truly means, you begin to take on the nature of Jesus.

Two bodies, one nature. His Blood, becomes our blood, just as our blood became His when He took on human nature. It is through this that we die to sin and take on His nature, changing our carnel minds to His mind. We are in all ways, Abba's Children, and He will perfect our faith in to the faith of Jesus so that we may stand when Jesus returns to take us home.

Death loses it's sting, for we are His, just as Jesus is His. We share His Blood. He will take us home, for He cannot lie, and cannot violate a Blood Covenant, just as He cannot fail to punish a violated Blood Covenant. Trials are to be welcomed, for they demonstrate for us to hold on to, cling to, ever deeper faith in Abba. That what He says, He will perform, so that in the end, we can stand, through all that Lucifer, all the demons of hell, their depraved servants and those lost to the strong delusion can throw at us. And then, we will continue to stand through the final fury before His appearing.

That we also are perfect is simply a by-product of Abba fulfilling His part of the Blood Covenant, sealed in the Blood of Jesus, and renewed by us at baptism.

THAT is what was done at the cross.

Clio

[archierieus]

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yongttay said:

Is sinless living in sinful flesh Possible?

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Flip the question around. Is there any temptation that comes our way, that is too strong for us to resist with God's help? What about 1 Cor. 10:13. Several questions: does God want us to sin? Is God able to keep us from sinning? Has God promised to restrict Satan's power to tempt, beyond what we can bear? Did Jesus set an example for us to follow? If we do sin, then why do we sin? Is it because God can't help us, or is because we choose to sin?

Regards, Dave

[Nicodema]

Speaking of turning the question around -- I glanced at the title really fast and thought it said, "Is sinful living in sinless flesh possible?"

As a matter of fact, it is. Adam and Eve were made with Sinless Flesh but lived sinfully in it. So yes, sinful living in sinless flesh is possible.

[Gerr]

If sinless living is not possible in this life, then, please, explain what Jesus meant when He said to the man healed at the Pool of Bethesda:

[:"red"] "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." Jn 5:14 NKJ.[/]

And to the woman exposed for adultery:

[:"red"] "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." Jn 8:11 NKJ[/]

Or explain what John meant when he said:

[:"red"]"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is how we know who is the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother." 1 Jn 3:9,10 NIV [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Sinless living is not a requirement for our salvation as Christ had already done the sinless living for us during His 33 1/2 years earthly ministry. Cheap Grace? No. We will continue to have a sinful living until the day we die because we are still living in Adam's body. At the resurrection, God will give us Christ's body to live in. Only then we are capable sinless living, because we live in Christ's body.

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[:"blue"]Then how would you handle the texts that say:[/]

[:"red"] "The soul who sins shall die." Ez 18:4 NKJ

"The wages of sin is death." Rom 6:23 NKJ [/] [:"blue"]

Did Paul say,[/blue] [:"red"] "Let him who stole steal less?"[/] [:"blue"] NO!!! He said, [/] [:"red"] "Let him who stole steal no longer." Eph 4:28 NKJ. [/]

[:"blue"]

Again, he says, [/] "But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness,let it not even be named among you as is fitting for saints....For this you know, that NO fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Eph 5:3,5 NKJ [/]

Is the Christian life about stealing less? Fornicating less? Coveting less? Is there no stopping point for all of these in this life? Is there no point in the Christians's life where he can say, "'NO' to ungodliness and worldly passions, and ...live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hop--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ?" Titus 2:12,13 NIV[/]

Gerry

[Nicodema]

Again, it is pretty clear to me that a lot of how this question is answered depends on how one defines "sin" -- particularly with regard to the verses Gerry cites above.

If by "sin" we mean conscious, willful commission of something that is a sin, then yes, it seems pretty clear from scripture we are intended to have a life free from that. To illustrate: I may be tempted to steal something or to do harm to someone I'm angry with, but I can say no to these temptations and thus choose not to sin. That one's a no-brainer (to me anyway); the puzzler in it for me is the fact that frankly, I don't need to be a Christian to do that. I can be a morally-principled atheist and still elect to say no to temptations I know are wrong. But that's another can o' worms for another thread!

Now, if by "sin" we mean accidental reactions or responses over which we have no control to keep them from being spontaneously generated by the flesh (our human nature in this life) -- although we still have the choice, once becoming conscious of them, whether to keep going that way or not -- then no, I don't believe anything in scripture guarantees us reaching a state where "sin" never happens. I do believe it is possible to grow spiritually and emotionally to where new habits and responses are developed, and old undesirable ones are less likely to manifest themselves. But as to whether there is any state wherein, say for example, a judgmental thought will NEVER pop up in the brain AT ALL? If there is such a state, it's not one that I know firsthand. I know what it is to have an unkind thought come up and then choose to say "no" to it and replace it with something better -- but I don't know any state of perfection where no such thing EVER comes up, EVER, NO MATTER WHAT and thus you NEVER have to do any "work" on yourself.

So again, it all hinges on what we choose to define as "sin".

[archierieus]

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Nicodema said:

But as to whether there is any state wherein, say for example, a judgmental thought will NEVER pop up in the brain AT ALL? If there is such a state, it's not one that I know firsthand. I know what it is to have an unkind thought come up and then choose to say "no" to it and replace it with something better -- but I don't know any state of perfection where no such thing EVER comes up, EVER, NO MATTER WHAT and thus you NEVER have to do any "work" on yourself.

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Indeed, things pop up from the subconscious mind, for example, over which we have no control. We filter communication based on our own backgrounds, and all kinds of things can happen, negative thoughts pop into our minds, etc. I have never understood such things to constitute sin. What we do with such thoughts is the issue. We can resist judgmental thoughts, and pray for God to give us the mind of Christ. Sanctification, involving the purification of the mind and heart, is the work of a lifetime. Jesus is the Healer of the mind as well as the body. Sometimes, that takes time. Negative reactions and thoughts may come, throughout that process. But, I don't believe they are sin unless we choose to cherish such. When such thoughts come into the mind, resist them in Jesus' name and focus the thoughts on the Lord Jesus Christ. Sometimes, I start singing a hymn when such thoughts occur. Ofen, I remind myself of God's promises, etc. With God, all things are possible. God's promise re thoughts is found in 2 Cor. 10:5. He is able to bring every thought into captivity to the will of Christ. We can allow Jesus to do His perfect work within us, and cooperate with Him as He is doing it. He will bring it to completion.

Regards, Dave

[Dr. Shane]

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If we can have sinless living in sinful flesh then we would not need Jesus as our saviour

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We will always need a Savior. Even after we have been glorified and taken to heaven. That is because we will always be sinners. That is because once we have sinned, we become sinners and in need of a Savior. Even after we have complete victory over sin, we will continue to need the blood of Christ.

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Our natural born bodies were makeup of Adam's bones, flesh and blood. In other word, we live in Adam's body.

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Following this logic we must conclude the same of Christ. Concieved of the Holy Spirit, the Son of Man was born of Mary.

[Robert]

Remember all that stuff I said in regards to Christ being homeless because His focus wasn't on himself, it was on us? Well it's ironic that before this remnant can perfectly reflect Christ's life they must lose all earthly attachments. Read it again:

"God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial, is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthiness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected."

Maybe that's what Christ had in mind when He said, 26 “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple....33 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

This must be within the context of the following:

Brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 “And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

The issue in the end-time will be salvation by works vs salvation by grace. Those who oppose the gospel of Christ will turn on those under the banner of Christ our righteousness. At that time we will have to make a choice:

1] Family and possessions or

2] Christ.

Those who renounce their possessions are being made into the image of Christ. They are reflecting their Master who said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

Please remember that Christ ties earthly possessions with coveting:

“Take heed, and beware of all covetousness; for a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”

Face it, we have to work hard at getting things....At the center of these actions is selfishness. It is during this time (i.e., the time of Jacob's trouble) that the believers have said goodbye to the love of the world. When this happens I believe that will allow God to perfectly reflect His image in his bride, the church.

Anyway...that's my opinion....

Rob