Is sinless living in sinful flesh possible?

[Gerr]

Nico, you have defined those words very well. The reason I put a / between them meaning they are all interchangeable is because they are all acts that are approved by the will.

In answer to your last question, YES, I have. But the reason is that I have not always been abiding moment by moment in Jesus. We get busy, we neglect prayer & Bible study, and pretty soon, in an unguarded moment, the devil comes to us like he did to David while he was looking out of his palace and saw a beautiful woman and becomes overwhelmed and succumbs to the temptation. But when we are abiding in Christ, watching and praying, willful/intentional/deliberate/presumptuous sin cannot overwhelm us. But the Good News & promise is that, IF we do sin, when we repent (like David did) we have an Advocate with the Father.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Nicodema said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

For all who believe that sinless living is NOT possible in this life, I'm still waiting for you to explain these verses.

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For all those who believe that sinless living in this life IS possible, I'm still waiting for you to produce one living specimen thereof.

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[:"blue"]I know many Christians who no longer wilfully/intentionally/deliberately/premeditatively/presumptuously do the things that grieve our loving Lord. And I am confident that many in this forum have also come to this point. The paradox is that the closer we come to Jesus, the less likely we are going to be advertising how good we are because of the contrast we see between the life of our righteous Lord and God and our fallen lives. [/]

Gerry

[Dr. Shane]

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I know many Christians who no longer wilfully/intentionally/deliberately/premeditatively/presumptuously do the things that grieve our loving Lord. And I am confident that many in this forum have also come to this point. The paradox is that the closer we come to Jesus, the less likely we are going to be advertising how good we are because of the contrast we see between the life of our righteous Lord and God and our fallen lives.

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AMEN

[Nicodema]

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Gerry said:

... I am confident that many in this forum have also come to this point. The paradox is that the closer we come to Jesus, the

less likely we are going to be advertising how good we are

because of the contrast we see between the life of our righteous Lord and God and our fallen lives.

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So does that mean anyone who reads the above statement and inwardly nods and says "yup, that's me ..." automatically disqualifies himself or herself from actually being that? Because believe me, "advertising" or not, it's pretty easy to tell when someone thinks they qualify -- and quite obvious that in those cases, they are very much deluding themselves--at least according to what they exhibit at times.

[Nicodema]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

In answer to your last question, YES, I have. But the reason is that I have not always been abiding moment by moment in Jesus. We get busy, we neglect prayer & Bible study, and pretty soon, in an unguarded moment, the devil comes to us ... and [we] succumb[] to the temptation. ,,, But the Good News & promise is that, IF we do sin, when we repent (like David did) we have an Advocate with the Father.

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Thank you for your honest and candid answer, Gerry. I apologize for putting you personally on the "hot seat" but please understand it's not about you personally so much as you're standing in for "Christian, exhibit A" as it were. In other words I'm not here to judge you but to get answers to my own questions -- and in turn I hope nothing I ask which you graciously choose to answer will cause anyone else to be judgmental either.

Keeping that in mind I have a few more questions.

(1) Given that this is the case then (as you stated above), how do you know, then, that your own conversion / born-again experience / acceptance of Christ was real and genuine in the first place, since you cannot claim to have walked free of all willful/deliberate/presumptuous sin since that time?

(2) What is the difference, then (if any) between your experience of "not abiding" and thus becoming ready prey for temptation (to which you admit giving in and thus sinning deliberately/ willfully/ and/or presumptuously) and then repenting and being forgiven, versus anyone else's who has sinned & repented, sinned & repented, sinned & repented likewise?

(3) If there is no difference, how can you then say (which I thought to have heard you say, correct me if I'm in error here) that there is no ongoing justification in Christ for anyone who is still erring (commiting willful or presumptuous sin)? How else would you or they have been enabled to repent at all but for God's grace and mercy, since repentance is a gift of those established facts?

(4) If I misunderstood what you said then is it that you actually believe in what I term "yo-yo salvation"? (E.g. if you are converted you are saved; if you then sin willfully you are lost unless/until you repent; if you repent you are then saved again; if you then sin again you are lost again, etc.) And if you do, and there is no real justification that covers us in Christ, what hope is there for anyone, then, unless or until he becomes 'perfect' (no longer makes any choices to sin); and if that is the case, how is that NOT a works-based salvation?

(5) Aside from all these considerations where do you categorize things that are just less-than-desirable habits (e.g. such as eating meat or drinking coffee) but not outright prohibited in the Bible (though they may be spoken against in the SOP)? Is continuation of something like that under the category of "willful deliberate sin" or is it under a separate category all its own, considering that some people just plain may not consider things not expressly prohibited or sinful to be important enough to fuss over changing?

Thanks again for whatever time you give to this. It is not lost on me that you obviously don't have to if you don't want to.

Happy Holidays everyone!

Nico

[Gerr]

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benherndon said:

But....Gerry, doesn't the same author in 1John say this in 1John 5:16ff, "If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrong-doing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin......."

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[:"blue"]Putting together the above quote with Ez 18:14, "The soul who sins shall die," and Rom 6:23, "The wages of sin is death," we would be forced to either conclude that the Bible is contradicting itself, or that John, Paul, & Ezekiel are talking about two different kinds of sins. (1) intentional/wilfull/deliberate/presumptuous sins which we do not repent of and forsake which therefore lead to death, and (2) unintentional/inadvertent sins which I don't believe God holds us accountable for which therefore do not lead to death [/]

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One has also to bear in mind that 'sin' in 1John is defined as not believing in Jesus Christ and not loving each other. "Sin" in 1 John is not referring to the Ten Commandments for the Christian has been relieved of the Law of Moses, all of it.2Cor 3, Gal 3, Eph 2, Col 2, etc.

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[:"blue"]This is where we have a major disagreement. But let me ask you, how do you know, by what criterion would you be able to tell who really believes in Christ and who doesn't? [/]

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Its the same 1John who wrote the Gospel of St. John and he says there that, "...Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life...and Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:16ff....also....." ...if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

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[:"blue"]He also said, "Sin is transgression of the law", in 1 Jn 3:4. Which/what law is he talking about? Law of believe and unbelief? Again, how can you tell who believes and who doesn't? Jesus said it's not enough to call Him, "Lord, Lord". And the litmus test according to John: 1) practicing righteousness, and 2) loving one's brother, 1 Jn 3:10. NASB. And how can you know you are practicing righteousness and loving your brother? [/]

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Christ also wrote, "If you hold to my teaching (not that of Moses?), you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free...so if the son sets you free you will be free indeed." John 8

John also wrote: "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" John 1

There are a score of other similar statements. If you believe sin will keep one out of heaven, then, how do you explain those texts I've just mentioned?

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[:"blue"]Are you saying that Grace is without law? And that there is no Grace in the Torah? [/]

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There can be a tension between the OT and the NT *IF IF IF* one does not understand the the OT was for the Jews but the NT is for everybody! The Mosaic era passed. It(the OT) was (in my terms} a 'stage' in the history of Redemption by God for the sinners who did not believe in or obey Him in those OT times, so, He sent Christ to see if they would accept Him? Some did...most didn't, apparently, in His day.

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[:"blue"]This is another issue where we disagree. Gentiles who became part of the Israelite community became subject to the Torah. It does not make sense to say that the Torah applied also to the unbelieving Gentiles. That would be like saying our Constitution applies to the Chinese. But when Chinese or any other nationality become Americans, then they become subject to our Constitution. Furthermore, the NT has no relevance to Hindus, or any pagan religion until they accept it. [/]

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If one insists that we *can* become sinless, how come we don't see it in anybody we know?

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[:"blue"]Please take issue with John, Paul, Jesus, and the prophets. (See the Scriptural passages I quoted in previous posts). What did Isaiah mean when he said, "Cease to do evil. Learn to do good?" Isa 1:16,17 NASB. [/]

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Those commandments were written for not only God but others to see what sin was/is.Those commands of MOses were written in the language of mankind....not the language of God.

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[:"blue"] While God used the language of men, He did write it with His own finger on stone. [/]

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We CAN see who is sinning and who's not because the Law of MOses is written in great detail....and we all know the Law pretty well.

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[:"blue"]So you do believe that it is God's law that defines sin? [/]

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K keep looking for sinless people and I do not *NOT* find one and in fact Jesus says that all of us sin!

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[:"blue"]I've seen many who no longer wilfully/deliberately/intentionally/presumptuously break God's law. Inadvertent/unintentional sins? For sure!!! Does God impute/hold us accountable for this kind of sin? How can a gracious God do that? And how could Jesus say, "Stop sinning" if it could not be done?[/]

Gerry

[Dr. Shane]

The closer we grow to God, the more sinful we see we are. Those that lead the most holy lives do not feel as if their lives are actually holy. They would never "advertise" their holiness because they don't feel holy.

[Nicodema]

Shane, do you feel the statement you just made applies to yourself? That you are, in fact, one of those "they" who don't advertise their holiness because they don't feel holy?

I'm just wondering how to escape the paradox of recognition inherent in that equation. Or is one to go through the Christian life with blinders, never realizing when one has actually, in fact, grown closer to God? Are we doomed to fall and fail the moment we recognize progress and growth have happened, or what?

It's just all a bit maddening! Maybe the point is just to quit looking at and analyzing the self altogether, since the whole thing chases itself in a circle: thinking you're holy = not being holy = being sinful => recognizing you're sinful = being holy somehow because you realize you're NOT holy = seeing yourself in that statement and thus realizing you must be holy = not really being holy because you just thought of yourself that way thus proving you aren't = ... etc. It's circular pretzel logic.

[Nan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Maybe the point is just to quit looking at and analyzing the self altogether, since the whole thing chases itself in a circle:

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For me that is the answer Nico and I think there is support in the NT for that view

Paul says in Hebrews 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith... and in Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

And John (1 John 3:2) says that when He (Jesus) appears we will be like Him because we will see Him as He is.

Until then, our vision of our goal is imperfect, but we keep looking to our Saviour, having the assurances of the promises He has given us.

[Nicodema]

I would tend to agree with what you just said, Nan -- except somewhere in the NT there is a statement something like this: "Examine yourselves to see if you be in the faith" and again another one something like, "if we would judge ourselves we would not be judged." (I don't have the passages at hand so pardon any slight misquotings.) Otherwise I'd be perfectly content with the idea of not analyzing myself. I'm never satisfied with what I see there anyway!

[Nan]

Is the judgement statement Matthew 7:1-2 which actually says (NIV)Do not judge or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

The other one (I used a concordance to find it) is 2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith, test yourselves. Do you not realise that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test.

I cannot see any problems with the first passage - meaning we are not to be judgemental of others. I would be very interested to see what others think of the 2nd passage in the context under discussion. There must be a way that the passages harmonise with those I quoted in the previous post.

( ie that the passages harmonise with each other, not necessarily according to any interpretation of mine)

[Dr. Shane]

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Shane, do you feel the statement you just made applies to yourself? That you are, in fact, one of those "they" who don't advertise their holiness because they don't feel holy?

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If I ever felt holy, my wife would make sure the feeling didn't last long.

For me, I have come to the point where I just try to keep my eye on the what Jesus would have for me and don't worry about how holy I am.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So then, why don't you address those Bible passages that I cited? i.e.

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"Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." Jn 5:14 NIV

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Context: “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse may befall you."

Jesus is addressing a particular sin here. He isn't demanding perfection. That's your interpretation based on your works oriented thinking. Jesus is simply warning the man not to go back to his addiction that caused his "sickness" in the first place. Read the context, Gerry.

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"Neither do I condemn you. Go now and leave your life of sin." Jn 8:11 NIV

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John 8:3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law. Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without [the] sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin [adultery].”

Get a good Greek Bible and you'll notice most translations have left out the definite article "the" preceding the word sin.

If I ask, "Gerry, are you without sin"...well, I am asking if you are sinless! But if I ask, "Gerry are you without the sin?... I am addressing a certain sin. That's what Christ was doing....

Notice some other things:

1] The woman caught in adultery didn't ask for forgiveness. Yet Christ didn't condemn her.

2] Of course Christ's desire for this woman was for her to leave this degrading sin. He wanted her life to become more in harmony with His love, but yet He knew of her weaknesses in other areas and so He takes her one step at a time....But never as a means of salvation.

Hence sanctification is experiencing a change! The issue is relationship...the product is growth...not perfection (although that would be very nice).

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"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.

No one

who continues

to sin has either seen him or known him."

1 Jn 3:6 NIV

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I already touched this one....The NASB says, "No one who practices sin...knows him." Again, a practiced sin is one known by the sinner and one he refuses to acknowledge before God....

[Nicodema]

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Shane said:

If I ever felt holy, my wife would make sure the feeling didn't last long.

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Awwww!

[Nicodema]

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Nan said:

Is the judgement statement Matthew 7:1-2 which actually says (NIV)Do not judge or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

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No, it was something else ... let me see if I can find it ... *quick trip to biblegateway.com* ....

There, I think this was it: 1 Corinthians 11:31 -- "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment." (NIV)

It is "But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged." in the NASB.

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The other one (I used a concordance to find it) is 2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith, test yourselves. Do you not realise that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test.

I cannot see any problems with the first passage - meaning we are not to be judgemental of others. I would be very interested to see what others think of the 2nd passage in the context under discussion. There must be a way that the passages harmonise with those I quoted in the previous post.

( ie that the passages harmonise with each other, not necessarily according to any interpretation of mine)

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That's why I say it's circular logic; the whole concept of judging self is a stumbling block. Because if I already KNOW that real holiness, for example, is earmarked by one not considering oneself holy, then when I find myself not considering myself holy is exactly when I will say, "oh, I must be holy then." Which presumably undoes said "holiness" because the Bible also says that if anyone claims to be without sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 1:8 I think?). So then my next conclusion would be like "ooops, I thought I was holy; therefore I must NOT be holy." But then it's back to square one: I realize I'm not holy and therefore I'm holy. Maddening! What in the world?????

The thing is I know there's some truth to it because there are times when I've not been close to God and I've thought "Well I'm pretty OK. I'm not that bad a person." etc. and then when I start to come closer to God all of a sudden I start seeing everything that's wrong with me (which can be extremely discouraging). But I don't know how to get out of that circle-trap described above, of If you think you're holy you are not holy, but if you know you're not holy then you really are holy. Etc.

I guess the point is that we ARE holy -- in HIM -- and only in HIM because HE says so -- and anything else is just an illusion. We don't see it when we look at ourselves so we must take it on faith just because it is His decree.

[Robert]

This is to everyone....

I touched on this on another post, but it really fits within the context here even better. Take an honest look at the following:

• 1 Cor 13:4 Love is...

Before continuing let me quote two other passages:

• "God is love" & "love is the fulfillment of the law" [1 John 4:8; Romans 13:10 respectively]

Now, according to Paul, "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

Stepping on any toes yet? Mine hurt..., but it gets worse:

• 5 It [love] is not rude, it [love] is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Okay...we kind of get the idea. To me just about everything we do in this life involves "self-seeking"...but I won't go off on that tangent because that's not my main point here.

Let's continue:

• 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

Now be honest...what's the main subject here? Right, God's selfless, agape love!....So Paul is saying we know "love" partially. That means we have a limited knowledge of the law, right? I am not talking so much of "the letter of the law"...the do's and don'ts...rather I am addressing the law's spirit.

Continuing:

• 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

Paul is making a comparison with verse 12:

• 12 Now [:"red"]we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror[:"black"]; then we shall see face to face.

Again, the context is love! We understand God's love as though we were looking at it through a mirror that gives a poor reflection. That's what Paul is stating!

Is Paul stating that there isn't any growth because we can't fully understand God's love? No!

Go to 2 Cor 3:17

• Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 And we all, with unveiled face beholding [:"red"]as in a mirror the glory of the Lord[:"black"] are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Follow my point?

It is this: We can't fully understand love, therefore we can't fully understand God's will concerning the law as a standard. Because of this we "fall short of [:"Red"]the glory of God"[:"black"] [see Romans 3:23] even though in experience we are growing in His love as we maintain our faith in Him.

That's why we are not to judge, because when we set high standards for others, those standards will be required of us!

Make sense?

Rob

[Gerr]

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Nicodema said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

In answer to your last question, YES, I have. But the reason is that I have not always been abiding moment by moment in Jesus. We get busy, we neglect prayer & Bible study, and pretty soon, in an unguarded moment, the devil comes to us ... and [we] succumb[] to the temptation. ,,, But the Good News & promise is that, IF we do sin, when we repent (like David did) we have an Advocate with the Father.

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Thank you for your honest and candid answer, Gerry. I apologize for putting you personally on the "hot seat" but please understand it's not about you personally so much as you're standing in for "Christian, exhibit A" as it were. In other words I'm not here to judge you but to get answers to my own questions -- and in turn I hope nothing I ask which you graciously choose to answer will cause anyone else to be judgmental either.

Keeping that in mind I have a few more questions.

(1) Given that this is the case then (as you stated above), how do you know, then, that your own conversion / born-again experience / acceptance of Christ was real and genuine in the first place, since you cannot claim to have walked free of all willful/deliberate/presumptuous sin since that time?

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[:"blue"]I have the promise that IF we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, 1 Jn 2:1. I also have the witness of the Holy Spirit, Rom 8:16. [/]

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(2) What is the difference, then (if any) between

your

experience of "not abiding" and thus becoming ready prey for temptation (to which you admit giving in and thus sinning deliberately/ willfully/ and/or presumptuously) and then repenting and being forgiven, versus

anyone else's

who has sinned & repented, sinned & repented, sinned & repented likewise?

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[:"blue"]None. [/]

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(3) If there is no difference, how can you then say (which I thought to have heard you say, correct me if I'm in error here) that there is no ongoing justification in Christ for anyone who is still erring (commiting willful or presumptuous sin)? How else would you or they have been enabled to repent at all but for God's grace and mercy, since repentance is a gift of those established facts?

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[:"blue"]I believe that when a sinner becomes born again and then deliberately/intentionally/wilfully/presumptuously commits a sinful act, he/she comes under condemnation of the law all over again and remains under condemnation until he/she repents, reconverted, and forgiven. If this were not so, then Ananias and Saphira are not lost. Neither was King Saul lost. Neither was Judas, or Demas. There would be no point in warning the Ephesians to repent for having lost their first love. There would be no point for warning the Laodiceans either. I don't believe David was a saved man while he was in bed with Bathsheba, or when he was writing the death warrant for Uriah. [/]

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(4) If I misunderstood what you said then is it that you actually believe in what I term "yo-yo salvation"? (E.g. if you are converted you are saved; if you then sin willfully you are lost unless/until you repent; if you repent you are then saved again; if you then sin again you are lost again, etc.) And if you do, and there is no real justification that covers us in Christ, what hope is there for anyone, then, unless or until he becomes 'perfect' (no longer makes any choices to sin); and if that is the case, how is that NOT a works-based salvation?

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[:"blue"]God's salvation, God's forgiveness is no yo-yo. But we are the yo-yos. God is constant. We are not. We are fickle. Since the subject of this thread is about whether it is possible to live sinlessly in this life, which to me is possible when by this we mean that we can come to the point where we will no longer intentionally/deliberately/etc. sin, let me give you an example.

When a shoot is grafted into another tree (Rom 11), at first the shoot has to be taped or tied down. It can be easily dislodged. But as time goes on, the attachment becomes firmer and firmer until it has become so much a part of the tree that it can no longer be dislodged. I believe the same could be said about that relationship with Christ.

How could this be a "works-oriented" relationship? Not so. It is relationship-oriented. Faith, after all, is manifested in the way we relate ourselves to Jesus and how we live. That is what living by faith means to me. [/]

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(5) Aside from all these considerations where do you categorize things that are just less-than-desirable habits (e.g. such as eating meat or drinking coffee) but not outright prohibited in the Bible (though they may be spoken against in the SOP)? Is continuation of something like that under the category of "willful deliberate sin" or is it under a separate category all its own, considering that some people just plain may not consider things not expressly prohibited or sinful to be important enough to fuss over changing?

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[:"blue"]The Bible does not prohibit eating meat. It is not the healthiest way to eat, and I don't personally eat meat. I do occasionally eat fish when we go out or if I'm visiting relatives, but I would never tell anyone that they would lose their salvation for eating meat. I would personally leave issues like meat and caffeine, dress, etc. as a matter for the Holy Spirit to tell the believer how to deal with them. [/]

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Thanks again for whatever time you give to this. It is not lost on me that you obviously don't have to if you don't want to.

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[:"blue"]You are welcome, and I hope I have answered your questions. [/]

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Happy Holidays everyone!

Nico

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[:"blue"]Likewise to you. I also would like to extend greetings to everyone in the forum. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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I believe that when a sinner becomes born again and then deliberately/intentionally/willfully/presumptuously commits a sinful act, he/she comes under condemnation of the law all over again and remains under condemnation until he/she repents, reconverted, and forgiven.

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Let's say that I'm up on a balcony overlooking some rooftops. I see a nude woman sunbathing....So I send for her....She comes over and we have sex and I get her pregnant. Well, she's married and I don't want her husband to find out so I try to get him to go home to her so that he will look like the daddy...but he doesn't. So I have him killed!

Are these deliberate sins?

[see my story: 2 Samuel 11:2-21]

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

So then, why don't you address those Bible passages that I cited? i.e.

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"Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." Jn 5:14 NIV

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Context: “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse may befall you."

Jesus is addressing a particular sin here. He isn't demanding perfection. That's your interpretation based on your works oriented thinking. Jesus is simply warning the man not to go back to his addiction that caused his "sickness" in the first place. Read the context, Gerry.

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[:"blue"]Let's assume for the moment that your interpretation is correct, that Jesus was talking about a particular addictive sin that caused his 38 yrs of infirmity. If it is possible for him to stop this addiction through the power of the indwelling Christ and Holy Spirit, then WHY could he not do that through the same idwelling power with all the other sins of the will? [/]

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"Neither do I condemn you. Go now and leave your life of sin." Jn 8:11 NIV

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John 8:3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law. Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without [the] sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin [adultery].”

Get a good Greek Bible and you'll notice most translations have left out the definite article "the" preceding the word sin.

If I ask, "Gerry, are you without sin"...well, I am asking if you are sinless! But if I ask, "Gerry are you without the sin?... I am addressing a certain sin. That's what Christ was doing....

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[:"blue"] Again, let me ask you. If the woman could through the power of the indwelling Christ and Holy Spirit stop her adulterous living, why could she not stop doing the other sins through that same power? Is it somehow easier to stop fornicating and committing adultery than to stop stealing, murdering, bearing false witness and having other gods? [/]

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Notice some other things:

1] The woman caught in adultery didn't ask for forgiveness. Yet Christ didn't condemn her.

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[:"blue"]Does that mean she was already saved before her encounter with Christ? Was Paul saved before his encounter with Christ at the Damascus road? Was King Saul saved? Was Ananias & Saphira saved? Judas? Were they condemned? [/]

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2] Of course Christ's desire for this woman was for her to leave this degrading sin. He wanted her life to become more in harmony with His love, but yet He knew of her weaknesses in other areas and so He takes her one step at a time....But never as a means of salvation.

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[:"blue"]Did anyone every say that leaving a life of sin is the means to salvation? Rather, what John is saying in 1 John 3 and what Jesus is telling the woman & the infirm man is that when a person becomes saved, indwelt by Christ and the Holy Spirit, it is now possible for the sinner to leave her/his life of sin!!! [/]

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Hence sanctification is

experiencing

a change! The issue is relationship...the product is growth...not perfection (although that would be very nice).

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"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.

No one

who continues

to sin has either seen him or known him."

1 Jn 3:6 NIV

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I already touched this one....The NASB says, "No one who practices sin...knows him." Again, a practiced sin is one known by the sinner and one he refuses to acknowledge before God....

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[:"blue"] Again let me ask you. As long as I acknowledge that it is a sin, I can go ahead and keep fornicating, stealing, lying, having other gods? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

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I believe that when a sinner becomes born again and then deliberately/intentionally/willfully/presumptuously commits a sinful act, he/she comes under condemnation of the law all over again and remains under condemnation until he/she repents, reconverted, and forgiven.

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Let's say that I'm up on a balcony overlooking some rooftops. I see a nude woman sunbathing....So I send for her....She comes over and we have sex and I get her pregnant. Well, she's married and I don't want her husband to find out so I try to get him to go home to her so that he will look like the daddy...but he doesn't. So I have him killed!

Are these deliberate sins?

[see my story: 2 Samuel 11:2-21]

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[:"blue"]Well, what do YOU think? Look at all the definitions that Nico provided for the different words I have mentioned. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Robert said:

Are these deliberate sins?

[see my story: 2 Samuel 11:2-21]

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If David's mind and fallen nature were in harmony, then yes...these would be deliberate sins. But the fact is David's heart [mind/character] was right with God prior to committing these terrible sins.

Look at David's attitude: "I desire to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.” [Psalm 40:8] Yet we know that David fell...not a stumble or a trip, but a big fall. Why?

Answer: "The flesh"!

What's the principle behind the flesh?

1] It is self-seeking [see 1 Cor 13:5]

2] It wants what it sees [1 John 2:16]

3] It is deceitful [Heb 3:13] for it originates from the Father of lies.

Now listen to EGW:

"Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil." [MAR 91]

Bathsheba was nude....David's eyes rested on her lovely form. Immediately his "flesh" said, "I want her", but in order to get its way the "flesh" first had to get David's heart...his mind.

Perhaps David didn't even feel his nature's pull towards sin....Perhaps his feet turned imperceptibly towards evil? I am not sure, but in any case David didn't invoke the power of the Spirit....At best, with his mind, he tried to tell the flesh no! But his mind was no match for his flesh....

Well...we know the rest of the story! David's nature got a hold of him...it got his mind...that is, until "the LORD sent Nathan unto David". Then the Holy Spirit was able to bring David out his delusion. He was deceived by the power of His own nature....

Remember that David's heart delighted in God's law....He loved the Lord, so no David didn't chose to do evil...it was his nature. Perhaps that's why Paul said, "Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me." [Romans 7:20]

Did David repent of his sin when God brought him back to his senses? Yes! Therefore David's sin was not premeditated...he wasn't practicing sin.

Remember a practiced sin is one we know of and refuse to acknowledge before God. And yes, we should learn from our mistakes....I bet David did!

I bet the next time he saw a nude woman he looked away and called on the power of the Holy Spirit....Not to be saved, but because He didn't want to experience that evil again.

But sometimes we learn slowly....Sometimes we have besetting sins....We sin...we repent...we sin...we repent. But hold on...sooner or later we are going to have our eyes opened and that sin will lose its appeal...it's addictiveness. That's sanctification!

So a believer, standing under the umbrella of justification by faith, doesn't come under condemnation every time he commits gross, heinous sins. Yes...there might be consequences, but salvation is secure, as long he does not harden his mind/heart against the Lord.

The idea that we are "in and out, in and out," is called yo-yo salvation. The Bible doesn't teach this heresy. Only after the heart is fully hardened does God abandon the believer. When that happens there's no coming back. He is once lost, always lost [see Hebrews 6:4-6].

[Robert]

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Robert said:

Bathsheba was nude....Perhaps David didn't even feel his nature's pull towards sin....Perhaps his feet turned imperceptibly towards evil?

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The Israelites, who could not be overcome by the arms or by the enchantments of Midian, fell a prey to her harlots. Such is the power that woman, enlisted in the service of Satan, has exerted to entrap and destroy souls. "She hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her." Proverbs 7:26. It was thus that the children of Seth were seduced from their integrity, and the holy seed became corrupt. It was thus that Joseph was tempted. Thus Samson betrayed his strength, the defense of Israel, into the hands of the Philistines. Here David stumbled. And Solomon, the wisest of kings, who had thrice been called the beloved of his God, became a slave of passion, and sacrificed his integrity to the same bewitching power. [EGW]

[Nicodema]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]You are welcome, and I hope I have answered your questions. [/]

[:"blue"]Likewise to you. I also would like to extend greetings to everyone in the forum. [/]

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Thanks for your answers, Gerry, they are very helpful. Actually I am finding all kinds of things in this whole discussion helpful. So to you and Robert both:

[Gerr]

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Remember that David's heart delighted in God's law....He loved the Lord, so no David didn't chose to do evil...it was his nature. Perhaps that's why Paul said, "Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me." [Romans 7:20]

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[:"blue"]If David had been delighting in God's law at that particular moment, he would have said "NO" to adultery, "NO" to murder, for that is what the grace of God that brings salvation does to the believer, it teaches us to say, "NO" to worldly lusts, and live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age, see Titus 2:12 NIV. [/]

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Did David repent of his sin when God brought him back to his senses? Yes! Therefore David's sin was not premeditated...he wasn't practicing sin.

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[:"blue"]I wish we could take this case to a court of law and see if actions were premeditated adulter & murder or not. At the moment he saw Bathsheba and the thought of adultery crossed his mind, I don't believe that was premeditation. That was just an automatic hormonal reaction. But when David sent his servants to get the woman, he has crossed the line, because now he has had time to think about it. Autonomic responses occur before a person had time to think about them. David had time to think about what he was going to do. Same way with his plot to get Uriah killed. Unpremeditated? [/]

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Remember a practiced sin is one we know of and refuse to acknowledge before God. And yes, we should learn from our mistakes....I bet David did!

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[:"blue"]You say that a "practiced sin is one we know of and refuse to acknowledge before God." Let me ask you this question again which you keep dodging. If, and as long I acknowledge that it is sinful to fornicate, steal, murder, bow down to idols, since I acknowledge them as sinful, I can go ahead and do them anyway? [/]

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I bet the next time he saw a nude woman he looked away and called on the power of the Holy Spirit....Not to be saved, but because He didn't want to experience that evil again.

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[:"blue"]If he could have done that afterwards, could he not have done that the first time? [/]

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But sometimes we learn slowly....Sometimes we have besetting sins....We sin...we repent...we sin...we repent. But hold on...sooner or later we are going to have our eyes opened and that sin will lose its appeal...it's addictiveness. That's sanctification!

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[:"blue"]Sooooo, can a believer come to the point where he gets tired of sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting, and finally say I'm done with sin? [/]

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So a believer, standing under the umbrella of justification by faith, doesn't come under condemnation every time he commits gross, heinous sins. Yes...there might be consequences, but salvation is secure, as long he does not harden his mind/heart against the Lord.

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[:"blue"]So, I can sin to my heart's content after becoming a believer and still remain saved? So, King Saul was saved? Judas? Ananias and Saphira? What does repentance and conversion mean to you? [/]

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The idea that we are "in and out, in and out," is called yo-yo salvation. The Bible doesn't teach this heresy.

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[:"blue"]Nowhere does the Bible teach the heresy of "once-saved-always-saved". Are you saying that when a person believes, he/she cannot change his/her mind? "The wages of sin is death," whether you are a believer or not. If an unbeliever can be condemned for sinful living, how much more a person who knows better? Who is more culpable?

God's offer of salvation is constant. And for most people it is available until the day they die. But WE are fickle. We are the ones who act as yo-yos, not God. One day we are absolutely certain we are in love with God. Next day we may love money or sex more than we love God. Does God hang on to a person who says I hate you God? [/]

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Only after the heart is fully hardened does God abandon the believer. When that happens there's no coming back. He is once lost, always lost [see Hebrews 6:4-6].

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[:"blue"]At what point does a believer who goes back into sin become hardened? After one deliberate sin? Two? Three? Saul struck out after only three. Was he hardened or not? Ananias and Saphira struck out after one. Were they hardened after only one deliberate sin? Judas? Demas?

[/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Again, let me ask you. If the woman could through the power of the indwelling Christ and Holy Spirit stop her adulterous living, why could she not stop doing the other sins through that same power?

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You're on that perfection thing again....Just because a believer does what's in the letter of the law [i.e., keeps the do's and don’ts as it reads] doesn't mean he/she has mastered the spirit of the law.

There seem to be many Adventists who are so focused on all the good things that they do that can't see those things they are failing to do...that is, as far as the law goes.

Now to address your question:

There's no problem with the power of the Holy Spirit. However, His work in the believer is through permission through submission. He cannot work in a person who is depending on those fruits to save him or her. If He did He would be teaching pride...and the Holy Spirit does not indulge the flesh.

So let's say a believer is fully resting in Chris'st work accomplished at the cross. Can that believer reach perfection through the Holy Spirit [i.e., sinless living in sinful flesh]?

Well...I'm inclined to say no, although I might say "maybe". But remember if that happened the Spirits's work in us does not contribute to the believer's salvation. Also, the believer would never be aware that he or she had reached such a state.

Now here are some reasons why I don't think it's possible to be sinless while in the flesh.

1] If the believer understands the gospel and realizes that all holy living is to glorify God while in the flesh, then the Holy Spirit can progressively work in the believer to make him or her more and more into the image of God.

The problem is that the Holy Spirit's work in the believer depends on the human element...i.e., submission. That is our work....So yes, if we could fully submit like Christ submitted then the Holy Spirit could reproduce in us the selfless life of Christ.

2] While it is true that Christ, as man, relied on His Father by faith and in so doing defeated the desires of our flesh, Christ wasn't altogether as we are....

You must realize that we are born addicted to sin [self-seeking; self-love and all that stuff]. Christ, as man, was born as we are "born again". He never knew the addiction of sin.... Yes, He knew its pull, but He never knew its addictiveness. That's because the second Christ assumed our humanity [indwelt with sin] from the womb of Mary, that very second the Spirit dominated His assumed nature. Hence Christ was born "spiritually alive"!

We are born spiritually dead in sins and trespasses....So Christ never had to deal with sin as an addiction. We do...and it weakens our will.

Now I've personally experienced deliverance from temptation many times (and I hope to continue). I was flipping through some channels years ago and I came across a woman in a bathtub. Now she wasn't exposed, but she began to get up out of the tub....So I changed the channel.

Well my flesh didn't like that...it wanted to see some nudity. In my mind I had said, "No"...but I could feel myself getting weak...so I cried out, "God, save me from myself [my flesh]!"

You know what happened? The overwhelming desire to check out "the babe" went away. I turned off the TV went to bed.

Now some of guys might think that I was silly changing the channel. Well, laugh it up because if you "feed the flesh" you'll eventually be in another woman's bed. See how that affects your marriage....

So we struggle...sometimes we try and fail...and sometimes we let God have it. When we let Him have the temptation we make progress. But there's much more to the law than just not murdering, committing adultery and lying....So while we grow there are many other sins we do know of....

If God revealed all our sins to us at once He would overwhelm us. So He takes us one sin at a time....He works with us where we are at and many times we thwart His efforts. Besides, we don't live forever and so God does what He can in the limited time we live here on planet earth.

Now a word from EGW:

• "We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes [bTW, Of King David's sin EGW said, "Here David stumbled"]; but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy [as was David], [:"red"]we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God.[/] No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Rob