Is sinless living in sinful flesh possible?

[Robert]

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Robert said:

“Take heed, and beware of all covetousness; for a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”

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Oh, BTW Gerry...here's the context:

Luke 12:22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear.

Wait just a minute...we do we worry! Most of us go on to college! Why? We want to make sure we have plenty of food and a nice home to keep warn in. Well, I've added a nice sports car too...

23 Life is more than food and the body more than clothes.

What does that mean?

24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27 “Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!

29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

Where...here? Let's see what Christ says:

Matt 19:21 “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.

Oh..."in heaven"....

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Face it...that takes a lot of faith to do the above. So we go to school...we compete for jobs, etc., etc....We worry...

Well, all of us are a bit self-centered, huh? According to the law that's sin! So we better not be under the law (as Gerry would like to put us there)!

Yes...those of us who understand God's love and justification by faith know that we aren't measuring up. We know it is a faith issue, but can we experience "the faith of Jesus"?...That's different from "faith in Jesus"!

I say maybe...at least the 144,000....It's about giving glory to God - not meriting salvation because we already have that by faith....but for that to happen some sinners will have to give up on this possession thingy!

[Dr. Shane]

He said follow me

Strive to make my convictions right

Oh, my pride is hammering me down

I've seen you crying

I've seen you on your knees

The wise man died so you can

chorus:

Store up treasures in heaven

Store up treasures in heaven

Store up treasures in heaven

Don't you wait for the rain to come falling down

Can I follow you?

She looked at me funny,

With compassion in her eyes

She said casually

(chorus)

down on you

You gotta stop dancin'

Dancin' with your head

You gotta stop dancin'

You gotta stop dancin'

Dancin' with your head

And just look to the heavenly skies

(chorus)

Don't let the rain Fall down on you.

Written by Steven Delopoulos

[:"blue"] Very powerful song [/]

[Yong T Tay]

Quote yongttay:

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Sinless living is not a requirement for our salvation as Christ had already done the sinless living for us during His 33 1/2 years earthly ministry. Cheap Grace? No. We will continue to have a sinful living until the day we die because we are still living in Adam's body. At the resurrection, God will give us Christ's body to live in. Only then we are capable sinless living, because we live in Christ's body.

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Gerry Cabalo's question:

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Then how would you handle the texts that say:

"The soul who sins shall die." Ez 18:4 NKJ

"The wages of sin is death." Rom 6:23 NKJ

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It was the human race that sinned. Human race must pay the wages of sin which is death.

God created all human beings in one human Adam. Satan ruined all human beings in that one human Adam. God saved all human beings in another human Jesus.

When Adam sinned, all human sinned in him. Had Adam died before he had any children, all his would be descendents would have died in him. That would have been the end of the human race.

But God set up a plan to save the human race. He let Jesus, one of Adam's descendents to pay the wages of sin for the human race.

Jesus, being a biological son of Mary, had a sinful human nature by birth. Like everyone of us, He needed to be saved from the sinful fallen human nature. Like us, Jesus inherited sin from Adam. Unlike us who sinned like Adam and acquired more sins, Jesus did not sin like Adam and acquired no sins.

By living a sinless life with the help of the Holy Spirit, Jesus had experienced and developed an unfallen sinless human nature for Himself and the human race. It is by this unfallen sinless human nature that saved Him and those who believed in Him.

Adam was created perfect. By disbelieving(disobeying) God, Adam changed human nature from sinless to sinful. Jesus was born through human imperfections. By believing(obeying) God, Jesus(the last Adam) reversed the human nature from sinful to sinless. By Adam's action, the human race was condemned to death. By Jesus' action, the human race was justified to live.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus being born to the sinful human race died as a sinner. Death claimed Him. But Jesus Himself did not sin. For the law to be just, death could only keep the inherited sinful human nature that was in Him but could not keep Him there on account of His sinless human nature which He had experienced and developed during His 33 1/2 years earthly ministry.

This sinless human nature through Jesus Christ is the gift from God to justify believers for eternal life. In this life we live in Adam, in the resurrected life we live in Christ. Adam was the head of the sinful flesh human family and Jesus is the head of the sinless flesh human family.

[Dr. Shane]

The problem I have with this dialoge is that it all just sounds like philosophy. It sounds like one man's (or woman's) ideas and thoughts. I am much more impressed with a "thus saith the Lord".

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." Amos 8:11, 12

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Rev. 22:14

"Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you. Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger." Zep 2:1-3

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands... nd one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Rev. 7:9, 13, 14

[Yong T Tay]

Quote yongttay:

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Our natural born bodies were makeup of Adam's bones, flesh and blood. In other word, we live in Adam's body.

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Quote Shane:

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Following this logic we must conclude the same of Christ. Concieved of the Holy Spirit, the Son of Man was born of Mary.

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I agree with your conclusion. Jesus' natural born body was makeup of Adam's bones, flesh and blood. In other word, He lived in Adam's body. When Jesus died, Adam's body died in Him. When Jesus was resurrected, He came up with a new sinless flesh body. Copies of His sinless flesh body would be ours at the resurrection if we had believed and accepted Him as our saviour. We would then live in Christ's body.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

I have some questions,

Is it possible to know and love God so much as to not be deceived by Satans lies about Him? Remember Eve, she was deceived and it led her to sin. Adam just chose to sin because he wanted to be with her. So, is it possible to love God so much that you would not want to choose against God in any circumstance? Finally is it possible to love God so much that you would not choose to fulfill the lust of flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes?

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I believe that to whom it is given it will be a possiblity, but it is future. But we may have all that God has available for us now if we will let Him do His work in us.When the harvest is fully ripe I believe that there will be a people who will not choose against God in any fashion and they will live up to all the light they know. But to be sinless I don't think so. I say that because we don't know how deppraved we really are. (Therefore there's no struggle with that )

Norman

[Gerr]

Why are you changing the subject to possessions? I haven't said a word about possessions on this thread. I thought the subject of this thread is about sinlessness, not about possessions. Why are you so obssessed about possessions? You make the selling of all possessions a litmus test of discipleship yet you haven't taken one step to do it yourself?

Gerry

[Gerr]

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yongttay said:

Quote yongttay:

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Sinless living is not a requirement for our salvation as Christ had already done the sinless living for us during His 33 1/2 years earthly ministry. Cheap Grace? No. We will continue to have a sinful living until the day we die because we are still living in Adam's body. At the resurrection, God will give us Christ's body to live in. Only then we are capable sinless living, because we live in Christ's body.

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Gerry Cabalo's question:

=================================================

Then how would you handle the texts that say:

"The soul who sins shall die." Ez 18:4 NKJ

"The wages of sin is death." Rom 6:23 NKJ

=================================================

It was the human race that sinned. Human race must pay the wages of sin which is death.

God created all human beings in one human Adam. Satan ruined all human beings in that one human Adam. God saved all human beings in another human Jesus.

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[:"blue"]Those texts are not talking about Adam! They are referring to you, me, and every other sinner on this planet! That is why Jesus told the man who was healed at the Pool of Bethesda, [:"red"]"Sin nor more, lest a worse thing come upon you." [/] What is that worse thing that could possibly happen to someone who was infirm for 38 yrs? DEATH!!! Eternal death!!! That's what!

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

For all who believe that sinless living is NOT possible in this life, I'm still waiting for you to explain these verses.

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Gerry Cabalo said:

If sinless living is not possible in this life, then, please, explain what Jesus meant when He said to the man healed at the Pool of Bethesda:

[:"red"] "See, you have been made well.

Sin no more,

lest a worse thing come upon you." Jn 5:14 NKJ.[/]

And to the woman exposed for adultery:

[:"red"] "Neither do I condemn you;

go and sin no more.

" Jn 8:11 NKJ[/]

Or explain what John meant when he said:

[:"red"]"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God.

This is how we know who is the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother.

" 1 Jn 3:9,10 NIV [/]

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Gerry

[Dr. Shane]

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Why are you changing the subject to possessions?

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If the love of money is the root of all evil, our possessions may have something to do with our sinfulness.

[Neil D]

Gerry,

Nico explained this best...It depends upon how you define 'sin'.

Check out her answer on the previous page [i think it was page 3, post #199539 ]

[Ron Lambert]

Even when Jesus ceases to be our Mediator, He is still the Head of our race, the Second Adam. He Himself alone is the righteousness of our race. He IS humanity. This will always be so for eternity.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Nico explained this best...It depends upon how you define 'sin'."

That is a critical issue in this discussion. Without a common understanding, which we probably do not have, we will not have a common agreement.

But, I think that there is another aspect. There be a difference between committing sin, and being charged with committing sin.

I begin with the concept that in an absolute sense, God alone is sinless. We are not because one aspect of sin is an action that violates the will of God, and I have a construct that no human has an absolute understanding of God's will for them. But, another aspect of sin is "lawlessness" or rebellion. A violation of God's will that occurs because the Holy Spirit has not convicted a person on that point, in my understanding, is not a chargable sin. As Christ said: The one who knows to do good, and does not do it, to him it is sin. [Not an exact quote.]

[Yong T Tay]

Quote Ron Lambert:

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Even when Jesus ceases to be our Mediator, He is still the Head of our race, the Second Adam. He Himself alone is the righteousness of our race. He IS humanity. This will always be so for eternity.

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Absolutely correct. Humanity died in Adam, but live in Jesus Christ forever.

[benherndon]

But....Gerry, doesn't the same author in 1John say this in 1John 5:16ff, "If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrong-doing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin......."

One has also to bear in mind that 'sin' in 1John is defined as not believing in Jesus Christ and not loving each other. "Sin" in 1 John is not referring to the Ten Commandments for the Christian has been relieved of the Law of Moses, all of it.2Cor 3, Gal 3, Eph 2, Col 2, etc. Its the same 1John who wrote the Gospel of St. John and he says there that, "...Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life...and Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:16ff....also....." ...if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

Christ also wrote, "If you hold to my teaching (not that of Moses?), you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free...so if the son sets you free you will be free indeed." John 8

John also wrote: "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" John 1

There are a score of other similar statements. If you believe sin will keep one out of heaven, then, how do you explain those texts I've just mentioned?

There can be a tension between the OT and the NT *IF IF IF* one does not understand the the OT was for the Jews but the NT is for everybody! The Mosaic era passed. It(the OT) was (in my terms} a 'stage' in the history of Redemption by God for the sinners who did not believe in or obey Him in those OT times, so, He sent Christ to see if they would accept Him? Some did...most didn't, apparently, in His day.

If one insists that we *can* become sinless, how come we don't see it in anybody we know? Those commandments were written for not only God but others to see what sin was/is.Those commands of MOses were written in the language of mankind....not the language of God.

We CAN see who is sinning and who's not because the Law of MOses is written in great detail....and we all know the Law pretty well.

I keep looking for sinless people and I do not *NOT* find one and in fact Jesus says that all of us sin! He says in John 7,"Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law." The harder one tries to keep the law, the more certain he is to not keep it because......the law aggravated sin. This is the reason that most SDAs misinterpret Rom 3:31. The Law made it possible, in God's plan, for man to have a Redeemer, Jesus Christ. If there had been no law there would have been no guilt. If there is no guilt, the man cannot be put to death!! Since there IS guilt in all of us, we all, therefore, need a Savior. When that Savior comes and we accept all He did and says in our behalf and live as HE instructed (not the way Moses instructed) and observe Christ's Law, love and worship God and love and be compassionate towards each other doing good deeds as mentioned in James, we will be saved and have eternal life through Him.

Until Jesus comes and performs a miracle in each of us, we will all inevitably fall short and sin. We will make mistakes and they might be serious mistakes...but if we repent and change, and are His in our hearts and minds, we will be forgiven and saved. There are 'sins' which do not lead to the second death and there are sins that DO lead to the second death apparently. At least that's the way I read the NT in its total context.

If salvation is hard or difficult or few that will enter the gate, really!!, then I give up now and I don't even want to try anymore. I'm 83 and I've tried way too long and demonstrably unsuccessfully!!!!! If its tough to 'make it' then I know I won't and so, with whatever time I have left I would just say Whoa!---I'm not going to worry about it anymore!!

So I am a sinner and I haven't been able to help it other than the aging process which I resent.... I don't take credit for 'sanctification due to senility and the death of my body chemistry'. So-o-o, for me, if it ain't simple, I'm giving up right now!! If I'm going to 'hades and the second death'---I'll not be alone by a long shot and to be absolutely frank with you all, God can't escape some sort of responsibility for that, in my opinion. So, I believe in Him and I believe He was raised from death to life to reconcile me to God and I believe I love him for that and I believe I've been basically kind to most of the people I've met and I intend to continue such living. I don't do the detestable sins listed throughout the NT and don't intend to. But.....I'm a bit selfish and greedy before I even think about it sometimes. Also I simply cannot keep the Sabbath according to the Law. I've never tried to keep Sunday, either.....so what else can I do. I can't really perfect my character....it's too late already!

(Please don't let me discourage anybody else! Read your Bible with belief and prayer and I don't think you have anything to worry about. God will save you!...and it doesn't have a whit to do with your diet or whether you go to reasonably good shows or dance for a little clean fun. Life on this earth is to be enjoyed in Christ....I tried being a 'Sadventist' for years. IT didn't help me at all. I'm a happy Christian and trying to believe and do good deeds and if that don't work with Him, that'll be tough for me. So be it!)

Merry Christmas to all of you!!!

Ben

[Nicodema]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

For all who believe that sinless living is NOT possible in this life, I'm still waiting for you to explain these verses.

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For all those who believe that sinless living in this life IS possible, I'm still waiting for you to produce one living specimen thereof.

[Dr. Shane]

Much of our discussion has been about after prohibtion closes - which hasn't happened yet.

I do believe the saints will be perfected at the close of probation since Jesus will no longer be doing the work of a mediator.

[Yong T Tay]

Yes Dr benherndon. I love your posting in this thread. You make me feel assured of the grace and salvation in Jesus Christ. Jesus said "All sins can be forgiven, but the sin against the Holy Spirit can not be forgiven." The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sins and lead us to Jesus. Thus the sin against the Holy Spirit means to reject Jesus, and that's the unpardonable sin which lead to the second death.

Sinless living is What God wants us to do, but being in sinful flesh, we can try, but we will fail. God expects us to keep the laws not because of salvation, but because keeping the laws are the right thing to do. Salvation can only be achieved through believing and accepting Christ's righteousness.

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Why are you changing the subject to possessions? I haven't said a word about possessions on this thread. I thought the subject of this thread is about sinlessness, not about possessions. Why are you so obssessed about possessions? You make the selling of all possessions a litmus test of discipleship yet you haven't taken one step to do it yourself?Gerry

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Christ ties earthly possessions with coveting! "Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."

Paul uses the 10th commandment, in Romans chapter 7, to prove that we are falling short of God's selfless love. That's why....

[Robert]

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I keep looking for sinless people and I do not *NOT* find one

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Jack says, "I keep looking for this remnant, commandment keeping people...but I haven't found them yet...."

[Gerr]

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Neil D said:

Gerry,

Nico explained this best...It depends upon how you define 'sin'.

Check out her answer on the previous page [i think it was page 3, post #199539 ]

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[:"blue"]Yes, I saw her answer and I appreciate her addressing the Scriptures I brought up. What I want is to hear from others who think that sinless living is not possible in this life.

So, if it depends on how sin is defined, how do you, how do we, how does the Bible define sin? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Why are you changing the subject to possessions? I haven't said a word about possessions on this thread. I thought the subject of this thread is about sinlessness, not about possessions. Why are you so obssessed about possessions? You make the selling of all possessions a litmus test of discipleship yet you haven't taken one step to do it yourself?Gerry

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Christ ties earthly possessions with coveting! "Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."

Paul uses the 10th commandment, in Romans chapter 7, to prove that we are falling short of God's selfless love. That's why....

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[:"blue"]So then, why don't you address those Bible passages that I cited? i.e.

[:"red"] "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." Jn 5:14 NIV

"Neither do I condemn you. Go now and leave your life of sin." Jn 8:11 NIV

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 NIV

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God." 1 Jn 3:9 NIV [/]

If the believer cannot stop coveting per your theology, then according to these verses in John, then here are the possibilities.

(1) the believer who cannot stop coveting in fact does not "live in him" & neither "seen him or known him."

(2) this person who claims to be a believer, is in fact, not "born of God" and does not have "God's seed" abiding in him.

The devil even comes as "an angel of light", 2 Cor 11:14. There are those "who say they are apostles and are not, ....liars" Rev 2:2. There are those "who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan" Rev 2:9. And there are those who say, "Lord, Lord," to whom the Lord will say, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." Mt 7:21,22

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Gregory Matthews said:

Re: "Nico explained this best...It depends upon how you define 'sin'."

That is a critical issue in this discussion. Without a common understanding, which we probably do not have, we will not have a common agreement.

But, I think that there is another aspect. There be a difference between committing sin, and being charged with committing sin.

I begin with the concept that in an absolute sense, God alone is sinless. We are not because one aspect of sin is an action that violates the will of God, and I have a construct that no human has an absolute understanding of God's will for them. But, another aspect of sin is "lawlessness" or rebellion. A violation of God's will that occurs because the Holy Spirit has not convicted a person on that point, in my understanding, is not a chargable sin. As Christ said: The one who knows to do good, and does not do it, to him it is sin. [Not an exact quote.]

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[:"blue"] Greg, you and Nico, IMHO, are exactly correct. There are sins we commit for which we are not held accountable, i.e. unintentional/inadvertent sins, sins that are committed even before they register through or processed by the will. These we will ALWAYS be guilty of as long as we are in this mortal body. But wilfull/intentional/premeditated/deliberate/presumptuous sin? This is rebellion!!! Treason for one who claims to be in a covenant relationship with God!!! This is what I have been saying for quite sometime. This is the only way I have been able to reconcile what the Apostle John, Jesus, and the rest of the Scriptures are saying and the reality of my own life and what I see in others.[/]

Gerry

[Nicodema]

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Shane said:

Much of our discussion has been about after prohibtion closes - which hasn't happened yet.

I do believe the saints will be perfected at the close of probation since Jesus will no longer be doing the work of a mediator.

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If there is to be some special dispensation from Heaven accomplishing this, then fair enough. However, that should then be regarded as a separate issue from the general question as asked on this thread.

If we must wait for that specific time frame and dispensation/blessing to occur, then it is rather "moot" to talk about whether this is "possible" as if we mean "in this life" as a matter of taking the right course or discovering for ourselves how to achieve or enter this experience today, tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year.

So first let us settle WHICH "possible" we mean and THEN the real discussion can begin. I'm willing to concede that yes, given some special dispensation ("latter rain", outpouring of the Holy Spirit, whatever) earmarked for a particular time in history, that being indeed God's design, He can and will accomplish it.

What I'm interested in is what we do with ourselves UNTIL then, BEFORE then -- and the question of whether sinless living is possible being addressed for the here/now/today experience of the believer.

[Nicodema]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]There are sins we commit for which we are not held accountable, i.e. unintentional/inadvertent sins, sins that are committed even before they register through or processed by the will. These we will ALWAYS be guilty of as long as we are in this mortal body. But wilfull/intentional/premeditated/deliberate/presumptuous sin? This is rebellion!!! Treason for one who claims to be in a covenant relationship with God!!! This is what I have been saying for quite sometime. This is the only way I have been able to reconcile what the Apostle John, Jesus, and the rest of the Scriptures are saying and the reality of my own life and what I see in others.[/]

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OK, two questions then (as I'm basically inclined to agree with what you say above, at least in theory, that is, in terms of it being that which makes the most sense):

(1) Can you give me a clear definition of willful / premeditated / intentional / deliberate / presumptuous ? Because I personally do NOT see these terms as being interchangeable (as the "/" between them would indicate). Primarily because of the implications of "premeditated" and "presumptuous". Willful, intentional, and deliberate to me are fairly interchangeable, but they can occur in situations where there has been no premeditation or active planning taking place.

For example, with stealing: let's say I wish to rob a store or bank. I think about what I must do to accomplish it, what it would take to avoid being caught, formulate a plan, then execute it. That's premeditated. But let's say I'm visiting someone and I go into their living room while they are in the kitchen, and a $20 bill is lying on the table. Let's say I'm tempted to steal it. In that moment I realize of course stealing is wrong, but I choose to do it anyway. That would be willful, deliberate, and intentional -- but NOT premeditated. Now take it one step further -- let's say I spend a few moments thinking it over more deeply and during that session of contemplation, not only decide I will still do it, but specifically decide it "doesn't matter" because "God will forgive me for it later." THAT would then be presumptuous, as I would be presuming upon the grace of God. And going back to the store or bank robbery above, if I figured that presumption into my contemplations and premeditations for that, then that would be a case of sin that is not ONLY willful / intentional / deliberate but ALSO premeditated AND presumptuous.

(2) Now, once we have those working definitions requested above, a candid question: Gerry can you in all perfect absolute honesty say you have not once committed a willful, deliberate, or intentional sin since your [conversion] [born-again experience] [acceptance of Christ] [insert whatever term for it works here]? Not ONCE? Not EVER???