Robert Posted December 26, 2005 Author Posted December 26, 2005 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: If David had been delighting in God's law at that particular moment, he would have said "NO" to adultery... The law written in the heart is always there.... Yes, as we mature our knowledge of Christ's loves grows. Paul calls the law written on the heart "the law of my mind" [see Romans chapter 7] One of the problems with the man of Romans 7 is that he is trying to live the spirit of the law through his converted will power or the law written on the mind. While we can say "no" for a time...eventually the mind will weaken and the flesh will get its way. This happened to David as it can happen to you. Quote: I asked: Did David repent of his sin when God brought him back to his senses? Yes! Therefore David's sin was not premeditated...he wasn't practicing sin. [Gerry replied:] I wish we could take this case to a court of law and see if actions were premeditated adulter & murder or not. In other words David wasn't doing what his converted mind wanted to do...no, he was serving the flesh because it took over his mind. All this is happening at the mental level. Human laws only address outward actions. Unlike human laws, God's law has been answered in Jesus Christ. So at that tiem, Christ was representing David complete in Himself before the accusations of Satan. If, after David had been brought back to his senses, David would have persistently refused to acknowledge his sin before the Lord...then eventually David would have come out from under the umbrella of justification by faith. He would have been eternally lost. Quote: You say that a "practiced sin is one we know of and refuse to acknowledge before God." Let me ask you this question again, which you keep dodging. If, and as long I acknowledge that it is sinful to fornicate, steal, murder, bow down to idols, since I acknowledge them as sinful, I can go ahead and do them anyway? Sounds like you're talking of planning out sins and then asking forgiveness after you do them...That is presumption and something a mature Christian would never do. Quote: Sooooo, can a believer come to the point where he gets tired of sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting, and finally say I'm done with [this besetting sin]? I changed your question a bit....Yes, eventually he will have enough....Many times God has to turn up the heat...or He has to let us get hurt...you know sowing and reaping. Many times that's the only way we learn. Even then we are not above repeating that sin in the future...although the addivetiveness to that sin should be gone. Quote: So, King Saul was saved? Judas? Ananias and Saphira? What does repentance and conversion mean to you? As for Saul, Judas & Ananias and Saphira...I'll leave it to God if they are saved or not....I only now their sins....You're basing their salvation on their bad deeds. That's salvation by works. Since, in your mind, they didn't have time to repent then they must be lost. That's that yo-yo heresy kicking in again.... Repentance means a change of mind while the flesh remains fully the flesh! Conversion means acknowledging that we are sinners and in need of Christ's perfect righteousness. Quote: Nowhere does the Bible teach the heresy of "once-saved-always-saved". Did I say "once-saved-always-saved"? NO! Quote: Are you saying that when a person believes, he/she cannot change his/her mind? Sure, the converted mind can say goodbye to Christ and choose to go back to "the world". [i would say that it's rare]. That's why we need to be established in the love of God and Christ our righteousness. We need a faith that is unshakable! Quote: "The wages of sin is death," whether you are a believer or not. If an unbeliever can be condemned for sinful living, how much more a person who knows better? Who is more culpable? Ah...but the believer has died the wages of sin "in Christ Jesus"! Study the "in Christ" motiff! We are complete in the beloved through faith. The unbeliever is condemned because he remains "under law". The believer has been delivered from the law...he is no longer under its jurisdiction. [see Rom 7:6/Gal 3:25] Quote: At what point does a believer who goes back into sin become hardened? After one deliberate sin? Two? Three? The issue is faith...not your works trip! Only God knows when one's mind persistent rejects the righteousness of Christ. Refusing to acknowledge known sin persistently, is the same thing as saying, "I don't need a Savior because I am not a sinner." Quote: Ananias and Saphira struck out after one. Were they hardened after only one deliberate sin? Judas? You're confusing death after "deliberate sin" with hardening one's heart. They are two different things. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted December 27, 2005 Moderators Posted December 27, 2005 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: If David had been delighting in God's law at that particular moment, he would have said "NO" to adultery... The law written in the heart is always there.... Yes, as we mature our knowledge of Christ's loves grows. Paul calls the law written on the heart "the law of my mind" [see Romans chapter 7] [:"blue"]Nowhere is "the law of my mind" = a converted mind. That is YOUR eisegesis. [/] Quote: One of the problems with the man of Romans 7 is that he is trying to live the spirit of the law through his converted will power or the law written on the mind. While we can say "no" for a time...eventually the mind will weaken and the flesh will get its way. This happened to David as it can happen to you. [:"blue"]Can't you see, Robert, that if R7 is a converted man indwelt by Christ & the Holy Spirit, that he would be able to obey righteousness instead of sin? Look at Rom 6, please. [/] Quote: Quote: I asked: Did David repent of his sin when God brought him back to his senses? Yes! Therefore David's sin was not premeditated...he wasn't practicing sin. [Gerry replied:] I wish we could take this case to a court of law and see if actions were premeditated adulter & murder or not. In other words David wasn't doing what his converted mind wanted to do...no, he was serving the flesh because it took over his mind. All this is happening at the mental level. Human laws only address outward actions. [:"blue"]If it took place in the mental level as you say, which is correct BTW, then it was conceived in his mind. The lust came from the flesh, then the mind conceived the way to carry it out, and that gave birth to sin, and brought death, Ja. 1:15. So, how can you say it took place in the mind and yet say it was not premeditated? Is that not something that takes place in the mind? [/] Quote: Unlike human laws, God's law has been answered in Jesus Christ. So at that tiem, Christ was representing David complete in Himself before the accusations of Satan. [:"blue"]If David was in a saved condition while in bed with Bathsheba & while plotting the death of Uriah, how could God bring death to Adam & Eve for eating some fruit? What sort of a god do you have who has no sense of the severity of one disobedient act over another? And how could David say: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation... Ps 51:10-12 NKJ if he had such assurance of his salvation? [/] Quote: If, after David had been brought back to his senses, David would have persistently refused to acknowledge his sin before the Lord...then eventually David would have come out from under the umbrella of justification by faith. He would have been eternally lost. [:"blue"]So, how many times can I deliberately/willfully/intentionally sin before I lose my umbrella? King Saul had three chances. Ananias & Saphira once. Adam & Eve once. Cain two. Is God capricious? [/] Quote: You say that a "practiced sin is one we know of and refuse to acknowledge before God." Let me ask you this question again, which you keep dodging. If, and as long I acknowledge that it is sinful to fornicate, steal, murder, bow down to idols, since I acknowledge them as sinful, I can go ahead and do them anyway? Sounds like you're talking of planning out sins and then asking forgiveness after you do them...That is presumption and something a mature Christian would never do. Quote: [:"blue"] But isn't that what you have been saying all along? That believers can continue to willfully/deliberately sin and still remain under the umbrella of justification as long as they acknowledge that what they are doing is sinful? [/] Quote: Sooooo, can a believer come to the point where he gets tired of sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting, and finally say I'm done with [this besetting sin]? I changed your question a bit....Yes, eventually he will have enough....Many times God has to turn up the heat...or He has to let us get hurt...you know sowing and reaping. Many times that's the only way we learn. Even then we are not above repeating that sin in the future...although the addivetiveness to that sin should be gone. [:"blue"]So then, in answer to the question you raised in this thread, the believer can & will get to the point that he/she has had enough of sin and quit deliberately sinning? [/] Quote: Quote: So, King Saul was saved? Judas? Ananias and Saphira? What does repentance and conversion mean to you? As for Saul, Judas & Ananias and Saphira...I'll leave it to God if they are saved or not....I only now their sins....You're basing their salvation on their bad deeds. That's salvation by works. Since, in your mind, they didn't have time to repent then they must be lost. [:"blue"]That's a copout. Read the record again. [/] Quote: That's that yo-yo heresy kicking in again.... [:"blue"]No, that's yo-yo people who decided not to stick with God. [/] Quote: Repentance means a change of mind while the flesh remains fully the flesh! Conversion means acknowledging that we are sinners and in need of Christ's perfect righteousness. [:"blue"]Oh? If I acknowledge that I am a sinner & in need of Christ's perfect righteousness but keep going in the same direction without turning around, I am converted? Please look up what those two words mean. [/] Quote: Quote: Nowhere does the Bible teach the heresy of "once-saved-always-saved". Did I say "once-saved-always-saved"? NO! [:"blue"]Well, if I remain saved while willfully/deliberately living a sinful life while acknowledging that I am living a sinful life as you have been teaching, what's the difference? [/] Quote: Quote: Are you saying that when a person believes, he/she cannot change his/her mind? Sure, the converted mind can say goodbye to Christ and choose to go back to "the world". [i would say that it's rare]. That's why we need to be established in the love of God and Christ our righteousness. We need a faith that is unshakable! [:"blue"]So, at what point did Adam & Eve say good bye to God? The first willfull sin or was it #100? At what point did Ananias & Saphira say good bye to the Holy Spirit? [/] Quote: Quote: "The wages of sin is death," whether you are a believer or not. If an unbeliever can be condemned for sinful living, how much more a person who knows better? Who is more culpable? Ah...but the believer has died the wages of sin "in Christ Jesus"! Study the "in Christ" motiff! We are complete in the beloved through faith. [:"blue"]How can he say he died with Christ and yet remain living a life of sin? The promise is, "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom 6:4 NKJ. [/] Quote: The unbeliever is condemned because he remains "under law". The believer has been delivered from the law...he is no longer under its jurisdiction. [see Rom 7:6/Gal 3:25] [:"blue"]So, the out & out unbeliever who does not acknowledge the law nor have the power to obey the law because he/she is a slave to sin is condemned, while the believer who has been set free from sin and given power through the indwelling Spirit is not condemned for continueing to flout it? What kind of a God do you have that's so hard on the sinner and easy on the believer who keeps doing the same things? [/] Quote: Quote: At what point does a believer who goes back into sin become hardened? After one deliberate sin? Two? Three? The issue is faith...not your works trip! Only God knows when one's mind persistent rejects the righteousness of Christ. Refusing to acknowledge known sin persistently, is the same thing as saying, "I don't need a Savior because I am not a sinner." Quote: Ananias and Saphira struck out after one. Were they hardened after only one deliberate sin? Judas? You're confusing death after "deliberate sin" with hardening one's heart. They are two different things. [:"blue"]The point is, they got zapped after one deliberate sin. If God booted out Adam & Eve after one deliberate sin, if Ananias & Saphira were zapped after one deliberate sin, if Saul was rejected after three deliberate sins, what makes you think you can get away with several? Since we never know what can happen in the next moment, how imperative it is then for us to watch and pray, be on the alert because the devil is stalking us every step of the way. That is why the Bible says, "Today, when you hear his voice, do not harden your heart as in the rebellion." Sin is extremely toxic. No one can ever touch it & not get burned. [/] Gerry Quote
Robert Posted December 28, 2005 Author Posted December 28, 2005 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Nowhere is "the law of my mind" = a converted mind. That is YOUR exegesis. Disprove me using Romans 7.... Quote: Can't you see, Robert, that if R7 is a converted man indwelt by Christ & the Holy Spirit, that he would be able to obey righteousness instead of sin? Look at Rom 6, please. Rom 6 isn't part of the discussion. Please stay to the context! Elsewhere I have already established that you are missing the mark...that you are falling short. Why? The human element -- surrender. Also, Paul is dealing with the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. That's where he's failing [just like you]! If not, then you are perfect, just as God is perfect. Quote: how can you say it took place in the mind and yet say it was not premeditated? Is that not something that takes place in the mind? Because the flesh, through the senses, placed the desire in the mind. So then it is the flesh that is to blame ultimately. "Now if I [my mind] do what I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" Quote: If David was in a saved condition while in bed with Bathsheba & while plotting the death of Uriah, how could God bring death to Adam & Eve for eating some fruit? God didn't...Christ stepped in and said, "I'll take their death." Quote: Restore to me the joy of Your salvation... Ps 51:10-12 NKJ Restore me to the JOY...not restore me to salvation. He was never lost....Yes, David was in danger of hardening his heart, but he did not! Quote: So, how many times can I intentionally sin before I lose my umbrella? Funny! When you persistently refuse to 1] see yourself as a sinner, and 2] refuse Christ's righteousness Quote: believers can continue to willfully/deliberately sin and still remain under the umbrella of justification as long as they acknowledge that what they are doing is sinful? God can read the heart/mind. So if the repentance is sincere, well He knows. IF so then 70x7....Unlimited! That's not to encourage sin...it's to answer your question. Quote: Sooooo, can a believer come to the point where he gets tired of sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting, and finally say I'm done with [this besetting sin]? He can came to the point where he let's God have it....That's one sin, and 1 billion to go....But that's cool. Quote: No, that's yo-yo people who decided not to stick with God. We stick to God by faith, not our performance....There you go with the legalism again. Quote: How can he say he died with Christ and yet remain living a life of sin? Because you, Gerry [the individual] wasn't even around when Christ died....However, your life from Adam [our shared life] was in Him! That's the gospel. You are failing, but you are not like the unbeliever whose mind and flesh are in harmony. Quote: Ananias and Saphira struck out after one. Were they hardened after only one deliberate sin? Judas? I see they died, but the Bible doesn't say what exactly happened! You are speculating. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted December 29, 2005 Moderators Posted December 29, 2005 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Nowhere is "the law of my mind" = a converted mind. That is YOUR exegesis. Disprove me using Romans 7.... [:"blue"]The man of R7 is carnal instead of spiritual, a slave of sin instead of slave of God, indwelt by sin instead of the Holy Spirit. Slave instead of free. What more proof do you want? [/] Quote: Quote: Can't you see, Robert, that if R7 is a converted man indwelt by Christ & the Holy Spirit, that he would be able to obey righteousness instead of sin? Look at Rom 6, please. Rom 6 isn't part of the discussion. [:"blue"]That's like saying that chapter 5 is not part of the discussion of chapter 6 in the Sermon on the Mt. [/] Quote: Please stay to the context! [:"blue"]For you to say that, of all people. You, who are always talking about context when it suits you. Did Paul put chapter divisions in his letter? That chapter 6 IS very much in the context of chapter 7!!! [/] Quote: Elsewhere I have already established that you are missing the mark...that you are falling short. [:"blue"]Oh, you have? Have I purposely/willfully/intentionally/deliberately missed/fallen short of the mark? Let's see. The IRS has never indited me for tax evasion or paying less taxes yet. Neither has the Calif Medical Board notified me of any malfeasance or less of it yet. [/] Quote: Why? The human element -- surrender. [:"blue"]Yes, Robert, because of the human element, I have surrendered all to God. "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me." Gal 2:20 NKJ. [/] Quote: Also, Paul is dealing with the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. That's where he's failing [just like you]! If not, then you are perfect, just as God is perfect. [:"blue"]If by the Spirit I obey from the heart, am I not meeting the spiritual requirements of the law? [/] Quote: Quote: how can you say it took place in the mind and yet say it was not premeditated? Is that not something that takes place in the mind? Because the flesh, through the senses, placed the desire in the mind. So then it is the flesh that is to blame ultimately. "Now if I [my mind] do what I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" [:"blue"]The desire comes from the flesh. But the mind transformed by God & taught by the grace of God that brings salvation can also say "NO" to ungodliness & worldly lusts, Titus 2:11 NIV. The will then ultimately decides (premeditated) which will win out - the flesh/old nature or new man. [/] Quote: Quote: If David was in a saved condition while in bed with Bathsheba & while plotting the death of Uriah, how could God bring death to Adam & Eve for eating some fruit? God didn't...Christ stepped in and said, "I'll take their death." [:"blue"] Oh, so since Christ stepped & took their death, I'm sure He did the same for Hitler, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, and all the other blood-thirsty men of history, and therefore if David was in a saved condition while committing adultery & murder, & Adam & Eve were still in a state of salvation after they ate the fruit, then all these other great sinners of history must also all be still in a state of salvation, huh? [/] Quote: Quote: Restore to me the joy of Your salvation... Ps 51:10-12 NKJ Restore me to the JOY...not restore me to salvation. He was never lost....Yes, David was in danger of hardening his heart, but he did not! [:"blue"] Tell me, how can you have something restored if you never lost it in the first place? [/] Quote: Quote: So, how many times can I intentionally sin before I lose my umbrella? Funny! When you persistently refuse to 1] see yourself as a sinner, and 2] refuse Christ's righteousness [:"blue"]I have always acknowledged I am a sinner. I have acknowledged in the past and I will do so now & forevermore that I cannot work my way to heaven. That is why I have accepted the righteousness of Jesus as my only hope of salvation. And because of what He has done for me, I have also decided that by His grace, I will not knowingly/intentionally/deliberately commit a known sinful act. [/] Quote: Quote: believers can continue to willfully/deliberately sin and still remain under the umbrella of justification as long as they acknowledge that what they are doing is sinful? God can read the heart/mind. So if the repentance is sincere, well He knows. IF so then 70x7....Unlimited! That's not to encourage sin...it's to answer your question. [:"blue"]Ok, we are agreed that as long as a person continues to sincerely repent, he always has forgiveness available, ok? The question we are trying to settle is whether salvation/justification is lost somewhere between the deliberate sin and the sincere repentance. Let's say that a serial rapist who has never been caught becomes born again. But after being born again, he continues to rape, but because he knows it is sinful, he also continues to repent, and so this cycle of rape/repentance goes on. What time interval between the rape and the repentance would you give before you can say that he has lost this umbrella of justification? [/] Quote: Quote: Sooooo, can a believer come to the point where he gets tired of sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting/ sinning/repenting, and finally say I'm done with [this besetting sin]? Quote: He can came to the point where he let's God have it....That's one sin, and 1 billion to go....But that's cool. [:"blue"]Now you are talking about sin with a little 's', the little twigs & branches. Aren't you the one that the essence of sin, the big trunk & root of the tree of sin is self-centeredness? What if the believer through the Holy Spirit attacks this trunk & its roots instead? And gives it all to God? Is it possible for the believer to come to that point? [/] Quote: Quote
Robert Posted December 30, 2005 Author Posted December 30, 2005 Quote: I have always acknowledged I am a sinner. I have acknowledged in the past and I will do so now You can't be a sinner and a law-keeper [in the perfect sense] simultaneously! I think you'll agree... Quote: Oh, so since Christ stepped & took their death, I'm sure He did the same for Hitler, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, and all the other blood-thirsty men of history.... Gerry...Christ came to save sinners from the law that justly condemns them. So in order to answer the law, legally, He had to assume the same life we received from father Adam. Remember all of us, including Hitler & Stalin, are the multiplication of Adam's life after the fall. By Christ's doing and dying "all men" [the whole world] have been justified unto life. However to make this truth effective in our own lives we need to accept the atonement by faith. This includes repentance.... If Hitler & Stalin rejected Christ, then they will never see heaven. They will be condemned by that same law that Christ, in His doing and dying, delivered them from.... Quote: The question we are trying to settle is whether salvation/justification is lost somewhere between the deliberate sin and the sincere repentance. Absolutely not! That's because the righteousness by which one is justified is "in Christ Jesus" in the heavenly places. Only as one stubbornly and persistently rejects His need of Christ does he "fall from grace." And no, I don't know how long that takes....That's for God to know... Quote
Robert Posted January 3, 2006 Author Posted January 3, 2006 Anyway...I've changed my mind (and I might do it again), but for now I believe the last generation will experience sinless living in sinful flesh. The reason I've changed my mind is because at that time all earthly support will be cut off from the believers. That means they will be fully trusting in Christ for everything: Food, water...and "yes" their very lives. If that's not full surrender then I don't know what is.... My thoughts, Rob Quote
benherndon Posted January 3, 2006 Posted January 3, 2006 Taggin in and not having read all that's been posted above.....I'm not worried! "In everything do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Matt 7:12 I believe in and trust Jesus and God to do what is right in regard to me. I can't earn "heaven" and never will be able to. I hope to do good deeds and not bad deeds as outlined in James. I can't live 'the Law of Moses' perfectly though I'd like for those good points to be my goal always. So....I'm relaxed. As far as Adventism goes, its the only experience with formal religion and worship I've ever had. I like it and its people but....I think some of them get too worried for themselves as well as others. If you believe in Him and that He was raised from death for the reconciliation of us to the Father, live like it in your hearts and minds...and act lovingly and considerately to others....you don't need to worry, IMHO. I think of Dr. Debakey who was featured on TV yesterday. He is certainly not a SDA.....but, He's 97 yrs old and still seeking to help the seriously sick. Millions, even billions of people have benefitted from his efforts to help the sick!! I don't really care what church he belongs to and from what he's said about life I suspect he believes in God---but, whatever, when he's spent his entire life helping others, what sort of a God is it who would consign him to the Lake of Fire? It's God's judgment, of course....not mine....but living a life for others sums up what it means to be a Christian pretty much. I like that and it is consoling to me, who knows he (me!) IS a sinner. I spent way too many years wondering if I was getting pretty good or not------I finally recognized it was a losing thing....so I just said, "Have Mercy, Lord!" I hope and think He will. John 3:16ff...."For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son........" Don't worry. Being picky picky on this 'n that...it just isn't going to help, really! It's Christ's actions on the behalf of us sinners.....or, there is no hope for anybody. Were it not for the 'resurrection' not one of us, no matter how many veggies we ate or Sabbaths we kept watching the sun go down, etc., would have the slightest 'real' hope!! Be happy about it-----not worried about it! He's 'done' it all! Relax. Ben Herndon Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 4, 2006 Moderators Posted January 4, 2006 Quote: Quote: The question we are trying to settle is whether salvation/justification is lost somewhere between the deliberate sin and the sincere repentance. Absolutely not! That's because the righteousness by which one is justified is "in Christ Jesus" in the heavenly places. Only as one stubbornly and persistently rejects His need of Christ does he "fall from grace." And no, I don't know how long that takes....That's for God to know... [:"blue"]Let's see. Adam & Eve lost their standing with God and became subject to death with ONE deliberate act of disobedience. Ananias & Saphira got zapped for ONE deliberate act of lying. And the believer who commits the same deliberate act of disobedience does not? Where is the justice of God? The God who is impartial, and no respecter of persons? <font size=4>Where is this God of justice?</font>[/] [:"red"]"For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deed) - then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. 2 Pe 2:4-10 NKJ. [/] [:"blue"] Soooooo, if God did not spare them, how can you preach assurance for believers who are doing the same things that brought destruction to others that did them? [/] [:"red"]"There is no peace," says the LORD, "for the wicked." Is 48:22 NKJ [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 4, 2006 Moderators Posted January 4, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Anyway...I've changed my mind (and I might do it again), but for now I believe the last generation will experience sinless living in sinful flesh. The reason I've changed my mind is because at that time all earthly support will be cut off from the believers. That means they will be fully trusting in Christ for everything: Food, water...and "yes" their very lives. If that's not full surrender then I don't know what is.... My thoughts, Rob [:"blue"] Why wait for the last generation? Maybe that last generation is us!!! If the grace to live a sinless life is available to that last generation you speak of, is not that same grace available to the believer in every age? [/] [:"red"]"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called un by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires." 2 Pe 1:3,4 NIV [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 4, 2006 Moderators Posted January 4, 2006 I definitely do believe it. I didn't used to but I have studied, prayed and thought my way into believing my former understanding was wrong. However, I don't believe that sinless living in sinful flesh is what will ever save a single person or that people who are living in this way will be conscious of living sinlessly. On the contrary, they will view themselves as profoundly sinful when compared with Jesus, who is the only One we ought to be comparing ourselves to anyway. Remember that as soon as Peter took his eyes off Jesus, he began to sink. We do also as soon as we begin to pat ourselves on the back or think we've arrived spiritually and have no more sin to overcome. 1 John 1:8 and Hebrews 11:40 will always apply this side of the Second Coming. Besides, if we never committed another sin from this time onward, our past sins would be enough to make us worthy of eternal deat, except for God's unmerited favor. If God ever saves any of us, it is only because of His mercy and forgiveness. Overcomers will be viewed by God as worthy of eternal life because He sees us clothed in the robe of Christ's righteousness, but I am positive that the saved will never make such a claim for themselves. Jim Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted January 4, 2006 Author Posted January 4, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Why wait for the last generation? Why does Christ say, "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire"? The fire takes out impurities, right? So before the last generation can perfectly reflect Christ they must be severely tried! Go to 1 Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings." Now go to 1 Peter 4:1 "Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, [:"Red"]because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin."[/] Look at Christ's life! EGW says that, "He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly [as opposed to partially] given to the service of others.” Now look at Heb 5:8 "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." Do you think Christ enjoyed being persecuted...being homeless? Don't you know that His flesh suffered because it didn't get what it wanted? When you don't feed your flesh [your nature], the flesh doesn't like it. It will make you feel miserable...it will place all sorts of negative feelings into your mind. So you'll suffer if you don't give in to the desires and the lusts of your flesh....That's what to "suffer in the flesh" means! Gerry...Christ will use the time of Jacob's trouble to make your faith unshakable. That can't happen as long as you have your goodies. Only when you are fully dependent on Him will you be able to fully surrender yourself to Him. Think about it: During the time of Jacob's trouble you've lost it all....No food; no water; no house...no car...nothing! Yes, your food and water will be sure, but that's it! You will be in Christ's shoes. You will be fully and totally dependent on Him for everything. During that time Christ will take your total surrender and reproduce in you His own life! The evidence? "And they loved not lives unto death." IF alive then you'll be living Christ's selfless life....You'll "covet" nothing....Everything is gone. Possessions have no hold on you for you could care less. Remember this? "No one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." What was the issue then? They thought that Christ’s coming was just around the bend! Why? Read this: “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” [Matt 16:28] So I believe the context for Christ’s command was with respect to this. In the end you will have two choices: 1] Give all your earthly possessions up for Christ, or 2] Give up Christ for “the world”. Those who give up all for Christ will experience not only an unshakable “faith in Christ”, but “the faith of Christ.” EGW [to back me up]: “Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it [i.e., the loss of all earthly possessions] is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthiness must be consumed, [why?] that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [GC 621] “We need to be refined, cleansed from all earthliness till we reflect the image of our Saviour, and become "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world [:"red"] through lust[/]." [3SM 355] Our earthliness is based on our coveting or “lust”! It’s called self-seeking….We all do it! Whether it is our education or possessions, we have all turned to our own way. So the only way for us to perfectly reflect Christ is if we “escape the corruption that is in the world” based on lust or coveting. Possessions, based on the love of self, must go.... Okay…go ahead and disagree. Rob Quote
Robert Posted January 4, 2006 Author Posted January 4, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Our earthliness is based on our coveting or “lust”! It’s called self-seeking….We all do it! Whether it is our education or possessions, we have all turned to our own way. And he said to them, “Take heed, and beware of all covetousness; for a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” Please note the link between "possessions" and "covetousness"! Our possessions prove that in some way we "covet"! That's what Paul brings out in Romans 7:7-9....We've talked about this many times! So no, Christ isn't telling you to be perfect. What He's saying is that there will come a time when the world will turn on you. It will demand you renounce the Christ of the Bible. If you don't, well, you won't be able to buy or sell. Only then can Christ fully reflect Himself in you! Why does He do it...to save you? NO! That's salvation by perfection.... Besides, you have a heap of sins behind you and you still have a life indwelt with "the law of sin"! These two things disqualify you, in and of themselves. Christ perfects you to win over those sitting on the fence post. He uses the church, His bride, to witness to the love of God. Rob Quote
Robert Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Those who give up all for Christ will experience not only an unshakable “faith in Christ”, but “the faith of Christ.” I need to correct myself. It is now that we are to obtain an unshakable faith if we are to make it through the time of Jacob's trouble. How? Two answers: 1] We must be fully saturated in "the truth as it is 'in Christ'" 2] We must be fully ground in God's love! So, we must have the assurance of salvation based on the doctrine of justification by faith. All this in the context of God's love. That's what I mean by "faith in Christ." Those who go through Jacob's trouble are a special group. The Bible refers to them as the 144,000. I don't think it's a literal number. Not only will they be fully depending of the doctrine of justification by faith for their ticket to heaven, but they will also [through adversity] develop "the faith of Jesus"! Since they "have the faith of Jesus" they will be fully reflecting God's love. You can see this concept from the Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God [especially its spirit], and have the faith of Jesus. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 5, 2006 Moderators Posted January 5, 2006 Quote: John317 said: I definitely do believe it. I didn't used to but I have studied, prayed and thought my way into believing my former understanding was wrong. However, I don't believe that sinless living in sinful flesh is what will ever save a single person ..... [:"blue"]Nowhere have I even intimated (consciously anyway), that living sinlessly is what saves a person. On the contrary, I have always maintained that saved people can live sinless, holy lives in terms of not deliberately/willfully/intentionally breaking the law, since they are now indwelt by the Holy Spirit that enables them to do so, but that as long as we are living in this present bodies, we will continue to sin, albeit unintentionally. [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 5, 2006 Moderators Posted January 5, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Why wait for the last generation? Why does Christ say, "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire"? The fire takes out impurities, right? So before the last generation can perfectly reflect Christ they must be severely tried! [:"blue"]You don't think those saints who were burned at the stake, torn by wildbeasts, the Christians living under impossible conditions where Moslems have the upper hand, are not undergoing fiery trials? [/] Quote: Go to 1 Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings." [:"blue"]Remember, Peter wrote his epistle for believers during his lifetime, and not necessarily for that last generation that would be living on this planet. [/] Quote: Now go to 1 Peter 4:1 "Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, [:"Red"]because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin."[/] [:"blue"]Peter was just echoing what Isaiah said 700 some years before - [:"red"]"cease to do evil, learn to do good," Isa 1:16,17 NKJ. [/] [/] Quote: Look at Christ's life! EGW says that, "He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly [as opposed to partially] given to the service of others.” [:"blue"]The notion that somehow Christ wants all believers to be homeless & pillowless is so silly that going through another round of debate on it is even sillier. [/] Quote: Now look at Heb 5:8 "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." [:"blue"] If Christ who is our example learned obedience, then why are so down on obedience yet so gung-ho on homelessness?[/] Quote: Gerry...Christ will use the time of Jacob's trouble to make your faith unshakable. That can't happen as long as you have your goodies. [:"blue"]Nonesense!!! Job had all kinds of goodies, and his faith was unshakeable. [:"red"] "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him." [/] So did Abraham. So did millions who died for Him show their unshakeable faith. There are many believers who have unshakeable faith today. [/] Quote: Only when you are fully dependent on Him will you be able to fully surrender yourself to Him. [:"blue"]And you can't fully surrender and be fully dependent on Him while you keep your car so you can go to work? Cannot fully trust Him as long as you have a home? Man, what have you been smoking? [/] Quote: Remember this? "No one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions." [:"blue"] Soooo, Jesus has no true disciples right now because they all own something, exept maybe the Franciscans! [/] Quote: What was the issue then? They thought that Christ’s coming was just around the bend! Why? Read this: “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” [Matt 16:28] So I believe the context for Christ’s command was with respect to this. In the end you will have two choices: 1] Give all your earthly possessions up for Christ, or 2] Give up Christ for “the world”. Those who give up all for Christ will experience not only an unshakable “faith in Christ”, but “the faith of Christ.” [:"blue"]If you yourself cannot give up all your possessions in time of relative peace, what makes you think you can do so later? Why don't you give them all up now and be truly His disciple if that's what it takes to become a true disciple? [/] Quote: So the only way for us to perfectly reflect Christ is if we “escape the corruption that is in the world” based on lust or coveting. Possessions, based on the love of self, must go.... Okay…go ahead and disagree. Rob [:"blue"]Who reflects Christ better, the homeless person who goes around scrounging for food, mooching & leeching on others? Or the one who has lots of possessions or lots of education who use them to relieve the sufferings of others? [/] Gerry Quote
Robert Posted January 5, 2006 Author Posted January 5, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: The notion that somehow Christ wants all believers to be homeless & pillowless is so silly that going through another round of debate on it is even sillier. Gerry all you can do is rant, you can't answer the question [see Luke 14:33]. At least I make an attempt! We live in a world dominated with the principle of "self". Everything in this world is based on "I-ism". It's called the love of self as opposed to selfless living. No one loves Gerry as much as Gerry. So Gerry makes sure Gerry has as many goodies as possible. God's plan is much different then your selfish capalistic venture. Please note the fruit of it in Acts 4:32-35 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. 34 For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales, 35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need. There's God's answer [within the church] to combat selfishness and poverty! Your method is a win-win situation for Gerry because Gerry gets the majority of his goodies while the poor get some help now and then. The communist are right…Capitalism is evil because it creates greedy, self-centered people. But communism is wrong because sharing is by compulsion at the point of a gun. Having all things in common goes against our human nature. It is only through the power of the Spirit that this will happen. Until then please do not say that you are living sinlessly in you sinful flesh. Thanks, Rob Quote
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