Without a Mediator

[8thdaypriest]

I know that Mrs White said that men will "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator".  I'm too tired to look it up right now.  Maybe one of you EGW buffs can find it for me.  Anyway, was she saying this about sinners only, or was she saying this about the redeemed also? 

What about someone who dies a short time after he comes to believe?  That person is obviously NOT YET perfect in the literal sense - just in the "covered"-by-the-perfect-blood sense.  

When this person is resurrected at the SC, what then?  He will "stand in the sight of a holy God".   But he was not yet perfect when he died, at least not in the literal sense of never sinning - even by a thought.    If believers are NOT rendered perfect in every aspect of mind/body/spirit (even thoughts) at the Second Coming, and still have some "growing to do" then would not the "grace" of the covering "blood" have to continue FOR those not-yet-perfect persons?

[pnattmbtc]

Something from Waggoner I like:

The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from nature, the being of man. The erasing of sin is the blotting of it from our natures, so that we shall know it no more. 'The worshippers once purged' [Hebrews 10:2, 3]—actually purged by the blood of Christ—have 'no more conscience of sins,' because the way of sin is gone from them. Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found. It is forever gone from them—it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself—they do not think of doing it any more. This is the work of Christ in the true sanctuary (The Review and Herald, September 30, 1902).

I know that Mrs White said that men will "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator".  I'm too tired to look it up right now.  Maybe one of you EGW buffs can find it for me.  Anyway, was she saying this about sinners only, or was she saying this about the redeemed also? 

What about someone who dies a short time after he comes to believe?  That person is obviously NOT YET perfect in the literal sense - just in the "covered"-by-the-perfect-blood sense.  

When this person is resurrected at the SC, what then?  He will "stand in the sight of a holy God".   But he was not yet perfect when he died, at least not in the literal sense of never sinning - even by a thought.    If believers are NOT rendered perfect in every aspect of mind/body/spirit (even thoughts) at the Second Coming, and still have some "growing to do" then would not the "grace" of the covering "blood" have to continue FOR those not-yet-perfect persons?

Here's a possible explanation.  Say there is a time, X, at which everybody in the world has heard the final message (one filled with light about God's character) and made a decision one way or another, including your hypothetical fellow is going to die.

Say there is another time, X + Y, where Y is some amount of time, adequate for the hypothetical guy to develop the requisite character for Christ to stop His mediatorial work in the heavenly sanctuary.  So probation doesn't end until X + Y.

Now the hypothetical guy has enough time to develop the requisite character.  If he dies before the close of probation, he is OK, even though he has not had enough time to develop the requisite character, because Christ is still mediating.

Rats, I even went away to another area to see if that would help, but, alas, it didn't.  I wonder what are the parameter's for this software's craziness.

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel has raised important questions.  SDAs are divided on the answer to her questions.  Generally SDAs fit into the following positions:

1)  Ellen White was correct and means exactly what she said--There will be a time when people will stand without a mediator.  At that time one had better be one of the redeemed.

2) Ellen White was correct, but  has been misunderstood by many.  As long as Satan is active, it would be impossible for a human to live without the power of God/Christ giving them that life.  Therefore, it could not be correct to say that one could live without a mediator in the commonly understood sense.

3) Ellen  White was simply wrong.  She did not understand what she was saying.  Humans cannot live without the indwelling power of God/Christ.

  

[8thdaypriest]

PERSONALLY, I believe it is only those who have consciously refused HIM, (resisted His spirit) who will "stand without a Mediator".  

Every moment - NOW - we live in "sight of a holy God".  We don't "see" Him, but He certainly "sees" us.  Mrs White was speaking of the day when everyone will "see" God, and will be physically AWARE of standing before Him.  She is speaking of judgment day. 

When I think about being "covered by His blood" on the day of judgment, I think about the first Passover.  Those who gathered INSIDE the houses painted with the blood, were shielded from the judgment of the final plague.  Archeology tells us that it was the practice in Ancient Egypt, to paint or carve symbols of the "gods" around the doorway of the house.  The blood of the Passover was painted OVER those symbols. 

Were the people INSIDE those houses "perfect" or "no longer sinning" ?   No way!!!

[JoeMo]

I have heard the same quote to which Rachel is referring; and I tend to be in group #3 of Gregory's classification.  Based on my personal experience (with myself and everyone I have ever met),  I don't believe we will ever achieve sinless perfection this side of translation.  That is why Jesus chose to die for us; because otherwise all of us would be lost.  John 3:16-17 summarizes it best "Gos so loved the WORLD that He sent His only begotten Son ...[not] to condemn, the WORLD, but that the WORLD through Him might be saved."

Jesus did a good enough job at Cavalry to save the entire WORLD.  Do we believe that? Do we lean entirely on the salvation, grace and power to save us; or do we have to "help" Him to do so?  Yes, our characters must be sactified; but that is the work of the Holy Spirit, not ours.  Our work is to rest in God (i.e., don't resist the Spirit's bidding).  If we trust in Christ and do not resist (grieve) the Holy Spirit, we will be in the Kingdom.  A loving Father would never abandon His children for being less than perfect in meeting His standards in every way.

How many of you parents out there have abandoned your children because they are not perfect in every way?  How many of you have abandoned your children because of one or two glaring imperfections?  How many of you would refuse to stand for your child in his/her time of great peril?  How can we even entertain the idea that our Heavenly Father would abandon His "less than perfect" believing, trusting kids to the evil one?

[pnattmbtc]

2) Ellen White was correct, but  has been misunderstood by many.  As long as Satan is active, it would be impossible for a human to live without the power of God/Christ giving them that life.  Therefore, it could not be correct to say that one could live without a mediator in the commonly understood sense.

This made me take pause, as it made me wonder what the commonly understood sense is.  My understanding has been that the meaning is that Christ would stop his atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary, and limited to that.

We receive life from Christ.  Just from that fact alone it would be impossible to live apart from Christ, if this is what is understood from standing in the sight of a holy God without a mediator (regardless of Satan being active).

If this is what people think (that they will be separated from Christ) I can understood their reticence.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, the S DA  Church does not have one unified understanding as to what EGW meant in that statement.

 

[pnattmbtc]

Says the prophet: “Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.” Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God’s people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. (GC 425)

This speaks of the work of intercession ceasing.  I'm not aware of anyone in the church at any time in history teachings this means those to whom this applies would be separated from Christ or the Holy Spirit, or left on their own, although I would not doubt that there are people who think this way (but this would be do to a misunderstanding, not due to anything that was taught).

However, as to your third point, that Ellen White was simply wrong, there are many who believe that.

There are also some who interpret this statement to mean something other than what the traditional position was.  This follows from necessity if one takes the position that Christ took the nature of Adam before the fall. 

[DreamWeaver]

I'm in camp #1! I think its only fair that God makes His final test on humanity about saints being able to stand without a mediator. If Satan can tempt perfect beings to fall, why can't God guide imperfect beings to stand?

I don't think this is a test to punish or scare us, but rather an opportunity to cooperate with God fully to show that God's creatures really do possess the freedom of choice, and that the Devil was lying about how God is "trying to control us and oppress us with 'restraining' rules". Just as the world will have completely given themselves over to Satan by accepting the Mark, the saints will have completely given themselves over to God by choosing the Seal.

I also don't think God will leave us alone. We will be SEALED and the Holy Spirit will warm our hearts when we are weak and sad inside and remind us of God's Word when we make decisions. He will act as a Comforter, just like its mentioned in the NT and the Holy Spirit will fill us because we will have, by that time, had the Latter Rain poured out on us.

I also think that while the mediation has stopped, Jesus will not just be watching idly. He will be helping by standing with us and for us in Heaven and preparing to rush down here to rescue us with His angels so we can leave this place before the Devil can kill all of the saints that are left alive on earth.

I believe that God is strong enough to keep us from sinning if we make the choice to resist. This is why we need to make a vote each day for which world we want to be apart of by trying to do our best every day to listen to God. So that when that day comes when we are tested it won't be a foreign thing to us to do everything He needs us to do at that time.

Edited July 9, 2015 by DreamWeaver

[8thdaypriest]

Thanks for the quote. 

Through "the grace of God and their own diligent effort."

Clearly - I believe Mrs White was WRONG.  This whole "we must be perfect" teaching engenders FEAR not TRUST.   Sounds just like Catholics who FEAR dieing with one mortal sin on their souls. 

My "robe" will be spotless BECAUSE Jesus has "washed me" - NOT because I washed myself. 

I DO NOT BELIEVE that sanctification will be complete for any one of us when Jesus returns in glory.  We WILL be justified - yes.  In THAT sense, our robes will be "white". 

The other statement that puzzles me is this one:  "while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary" .   She obviously sees a PROCESS going on, wherein sins are not simply covered.  They are erased from the Sanctuary record, and then written against Satan.  Could Mrs. White have written, "while the sins of God's people are being placed on Satan's head".  Would that be in line with her other words. 

I realize that SDAs believe the DAY of Atonement began back in 1844.  (I disagree completely!!)   The sins of the congregation were confessed over the head of the scapegoat on ONE DAY - the DAY of Atonement.  That will be THE DAY that Jesus returns.  The scapegoat was loaded with those sins AND was banished to the "uninhabited place" on that SAME DAY.   You cannot separate the banishment of Satan from the Second Coming.  And you cannot separate the banishment of Satan from the Day of Atonement. 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Hi 8th day.  I agree with much of what you say, especially in regards to the concept that we need healing from sin and it is a correct vision of God's character of God which accomplishes this.  However, I think you've got this wrong.

It's wrong because it's a caricature of what Ellen White's idea was, which, unfortunately, is quite a common one.  When Ellen White speaks of "their own dligient effort", the effort is (see the context) in regards to faith.  It's all about what happens in the mind, and Ellen White was well aware of this.  It wasn't about perfecting oneself, which is the cariacture.

Satan's argument from the beginning has been in regards to God's character.  It's a false argument, from the standpoint that he knew what he was saying was a lie, but a very effective one.  Satan's goal was to win homage to himself, and misrepresenting God's character was the means to that end.

How should God counter this?  If God were to simply deny Satan's allegations, and point out that it was he, Satan, who was really lying and really selfish, this would be like two little kids, each calling the other names, and saying, "I'm rubber and you're glue; what you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!"

No, the only way to resolve the mess was not by mutal name calling, but allowing time for the wheat and the tares to grow together, where the wheat represents God's government and the tares Satan's.  Through time, and especially by the revelation of the cross, the universe has been able to see what are the fruits of the respective governments.

In these last days, we have received light as never before regarding God's character.  The last message to be presented before the world (COL 415) is a message of God's love and character.  "Behold your God!"  As the beauty of this message blossoms, the world will be split into two camps.  One camp will receive the mark of the beast, which is the government of the evil one, into their hearts and lives.  The other camp will recieve the seal of God, which is the goverment of God (or "kingdom of God" as the Gospels put it) into their hearts and minds.  The perfection (or maturity, or completeness) of those who believe will be a result of embracing the final message, the loud cry of "that other angel" which fills the world with glory.

The other statement that puzzles me is this one:  "while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary" .   She obviously sees a PROCESS going on, wherein sins are not simply covered.  They are erased from the Sanctuary record, and then written against Satan.  Could Mrs. White have written, "while the sins of God's people are being placed on Satan's head".  Would that be in line with her other words.

I think this is conflating a couple of ideas.  First of all, the sanctuary record is simply a record of reality.  So whatever happens in people's lives is somehow being recorded would be the general idea.  I'll repeat the statement I posted from Waggoner a little while back, because I think this explains the idea really well:

Though all the record of all our sin, even though written with the finger of God, were erased, the sin would remain, because the sin is in us. Though the record of our sin were graven in the rock, and the rock should be ground to powder—even this would not blot out our sin. The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from nature, the being of man.  The erasing of sin is the blotting of it from our natures, so that we shall know it no more. 'The worshippers once purged' [Hebrews 10:2, 3]—actually purged by the blood of Christ—have 'no more conscience of sins,' because the way of sin is gone from them. Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found. It is forever gone from them—it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself—they do not think of doing it any more. This is the work of Christ in the true sanctuary" (The Review and Herald, September 30, 1902). 

Regarding the scapegoat statement, which is another one of EGW's statements which is widely misunderstood.  The idea being communicated is that Satan is to bear the responsibility of his part in the sin of human beings, which is eminently reasonable and fair.  This is not simply for believers, but the wicked as well.  This is the part which is widely misunderstood, but she has a statement which makes clear that the responsibility is for all sin, not just the sin of believers.  

[DreamWeaver]

This whole "we must be perfect" teaching engenders FEAR not TRUST.

We live in a world now where people just don't want to get ready for Jesus because somewhere in their hearts there's a tiny bit of them that doesn't believe that the Second Coming is a real event worth preparing for. Think about it. In comparison to the way the apostles, the church founders and the pioneers that were waiting and working for Christ? They were diligent and busy!

Today people don't want to spend serious time in prayer. They just make a quick one before eating and before bed, or maybe when they need something for a moment. People don't know the meaning of praying for the sake of uplifting themselves to God, they want to bring him to their level all the time and "make Him" see the world through their eyes. They love to see God as a servant, but when asked to serve for Him they whine: "do we have to???" And people don't want to read their bible on their own every day. They just download a "daily devotional" app on their cell phone and call that their daily time spent with God. Meanwhile, some people can't even recite a single verse to save their lives, but they know all the lyrics to their favorite rap song or the whole script of a movie they shouldn't even be watching.

Of course people will be afraid when the test is here because they spent all their time wasting time and having "fun" thinking Jesus would excuse them just because they just "didn't enjoy reading" or "just didn't find God's Commandments to be convenient" to their fallen human nature. Many people will take on the character of Satan by choosing to accuse God of placing an unfair and unbelievable test upon His people instead of really using the time that they have right now to do the best that they can so God can work with them with the light that they have.

Edited July 9, 2015 by DreamWeaver

[JoeMo]

Today people don't want to spend serious time in prayer. They just make a quick one before eating and before bed, or maybe when they need something for a moment. People don't know the meaning of praying for the sake of uplifting themselves to God, they want to bring him to their level all the time and "make Him" see the world through their eyes. They love to see God as a servant, but when asked to serve for Him they whine: "do we have to???" And people don't want to read their bible on their own every day. They just download a "daily devotional" app on their cell phone and call that their daily time spent with God. Meanwhile, some people can't even recite a single verse to save their lives, but they know all the lyrics to their favorite rap song or the whole script of a movie they shouldn't even be watching.

C'mon, DW; you just can't make a generalized staement like that!  I agree that many people don't spend serious time in prayer; but many people do pray seriously every day.  Many people whine when God gives them a job; but many people also consider it an honor and privledge to be a channel of God's power and grace. Many people spend daily time in their Bible and/or in meditative prayer.

We need to start looking at what God's people are doing; and not at what they're not doing.  God's people are at work all over the world.  Just because the world doesn't recognize it yet doesn't mean it ain't happening.

[8thdaypriest]

pnattmbtc,

I can agree with Waggoner, and with your comments.   The long term results of rebellion (of Satan's kingdom) HAD to be shown, not simply predicted by the Father (although He DID predict them). 

I completely agree - that it all happens in the mind.  The consequences are just felt in the body as well. 

I believe our HEALING from sin will not happen in an instant, at the Second Coming.  Just because we don't indulge in gluttony, or pornography, or work on the Sabbath, does NOT mean we have been HEALED from the effects of sin.  The sin around us has resulted in our contamination with defensive thinking.  We're always worried about what other people around us will think, and how they will respond to us.  We're worried about ourselves, and our loved ones.  We don't TRUST other people - until they prove themselves, and even then .....

The HEALING will take TIME - a LONG time.  A thousand years - for those rescued at the Second Coming. 

That being said, our "sins" will have been forgiven.   This forgiveness will INCLUDE any mistakes (not sins of rebellion) we make AFTER we are delivered at the Second Coming.  We will go to the Holy City, the "place prepared" for us.  We won't come back to the earth until the 8th millennium. 

There will be millions of children on the earth at the SC.  There will be persons who are mentally disabled.  These CANNOT choose Christ, or believe in Him as LORD and God.  We have talked before about what happens to these people.  Millions of people DIED without ever choosing (one way or the other) because they DIED in ignorance or immaturity.   If we say that the mediation of Jesus as priest, ENDS with the SC, then all these people are LOST.  They must be left dead "like the beasts" (which also cannot choose). 

I believe those rescued at the SC, will be trained and consecrated to serve as "priests of God and of Christ" to teach and govern those raised "second".   Those raised "second" will be all of those who were not able to choose during the first age. 

You said that "sin" - period, ALL sin for ALL time is put upon the head of Satan. 

I believe that.   But - Satan is still left alive.  The only reason I can see, for this - is BECAUSE the contest for souls is not over.  Satan has demanded the right to TEST every human being.  Not every human being will have been tested WHEN the Christ returns.  Those who knew nothing of God or His Law, could not possibly be TESTED regarding their loyalty to God and His Law.  Satan is "loosed" to TEST those who will be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  Those who choose Satan's kingdom will die at Gog/Magog, along with their lord - Satan. 

Jesus is pleading His blood - for EVERY human being who believes in Him - AND - for EVERY human being who will one day believe in Him.  I don't think that pleading comes to a sudden, forever, STOP - at the Second Coming.   "Probation" will close at the Second Coming (the Day of Atonement) for all those who have made a choice.  An execution of judgment, (a cleansing) will take place.  But I don't believe that will be the END of the story.     

[LifeHiscost]

pnattmbtc,

I can agree with Waggoner, and with your comments.   The long term results of rebellion (of Satan's kingdom) HAD to be shown, not simply predicted by the Father (although He DID predict them). 

  An execution of judgment, (a cleansing) will take place.  But I don't believe that will be the END of the story.     

Is the recognition of this subject in anyway important to part of the assured salvation or loss of salvation, to any who trust in the gospel message? 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Is the recognition of this subject in anyway important to part of the assured salvation or loss of salvation, to any who trust in the gospel message? 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

Not sure WHAT you're asking LHC.

[LifeHiscost]

Not sure WHAT you're asking LHC.

I rest my hope in the Word that says Jesus paid the price for all my sins. In return He asks me to confess my sins, to believe in Him and follow His example

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.…John 3

In regard to the kingdom to come we will keep the commandments and we're asked to do the same thing on this earth.

…12But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. 13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.... Ecclesiastes 12

Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.....Matthew 6

This would seem to me to be what is needed , put in the simplest way, for the newest as well as the oldest of Christians, to understand.

12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."....Revelation 14

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[BobRyan]

I know that Mrs White said that men will "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator".  I'm too tired to look it up right now.  Maybe one of you EGW buffs can find it for me.  Anyway, was she saying this about sinners only, or was she saying this about the redeemed also? 

What about someone who dies a short time after he comes to believe?  That person is obviously NOT YET perfect in the literal sense - just in the "covered"-by-the-perfect-blood sense.  

When this person is resurrected at the SC, what then?  He will "stand in the sight of a holy God".   But he was not yet perfect when he died, at least not in the literal sense of never sinning - even by a thought.    If believers are NOT rendered perfect in every aspect of mind/body/spirit (even thoughts) at the Second Coming, and still have some "growing to do" then would not the "grace" of the covering "blood" have to continue FOR those not-yet-perfect persons?

It is a good question - but to discuss it with substance we must first see exactly what it is that we are talking about.

so then

=====================================================

Early Writings:

 

I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.{EW 71.1}

I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful and were looking to the time of “refreshing” and the “latter rain” to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation; therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God. Those who refuse to be hewed by the prophets and fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth, and who are willing to believe that their condition is far better than it really is, will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building. But there will be no time then to do it and no Mediator to plead their cause before the Father. Before this time the awfully solemn declaration has gone forth, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” I saw that none could share the “refreshing” unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence.{EW 71.2}

 

 

As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus’ mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment. {EW 280.2}

 

==============================================

 

So then it is true for all mankind that there is no more atoning sacrifice - no blood to cover sins after that point.

But for the saints we have the same fellowship with God - the same "no longer I who live but Christ that lives in me" as before. Yet there is no more sacrifice for sin.

That is a very "different" kind of "Close of Probation" than one might experience by simply being in a fatal car crash.

And the one who accepts Christ today - then dies tonight has the offer of forgiveness of sin right up until the last - -- this is not true of those that live through the time of the 7 last plagues.

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2015 by BobRyan

[LifeHiscost]

BTW, Here is some warning counsel from a godly source that might be of interest. If you wish the citation, please feel free to ask for the source.

  The Father has seen how the one who calls herself LJ--Laura Lee Jones--follows the observance of feast days and the lunar Sabbaths even though she has been shown that this is wrong. She does not listen to the voice of God the Father but the voice of the father of lies. She misconstrued comments you made and used them against you. God knows how she contacted David Gates and spoke with a lying tongue, convincing him to follow her--a woman that is led by Satan, the prince of deception. Yes, even the very elect are deceived. David Gates then sinned against God by not following the direction he had been shown in Mathew 18:15. He did not come to you and verify as to the validity of the comments made by LJ. Even though our Father works with him he was wrong in not following the counsel given in the Bible. The Father has seen how LJ has caused many to doubt the messages of the messenger. The Father waits for these to approach the throne of mercy, to repent and begin a work of reformation before the marking angel completes the assigned work given and it is too late. The Father is asking those who have erred to show the error of their ways and to not walk proudly by not admitting their sins.

Jesus has said that in this age, just prior to His second coming in the clouds of heaven, God calls for men who will prepare a people to stand in the great day of the Lord. Just such a work as that which John did is to be carried on in these last days. The Lord is giving messages to His people, through the instruments He has chosen, and He would have all heed the admonitions and warnings He sends. The message preceding His public ministry was, ‘Repent publicans and sinners; repent, Pharisees and Sadducees; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Your message is not to be one of peace and safety. As a people who believe in Christ's soon appearing, you have a definite message to bear,--‘Prepare to meet your God.’ ”

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Doing a quick search, I seem to be unable to find this in any of EGWs writings.  Please provide us with a source so that people do not confuse the actual author with someone else.

 

[8thdaypriest]

Early Writings:

I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.{EW 71.1}

I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful and were looking to the time of “refreshing” and the “latter rain” to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation; therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God. Those who refuse to be hewed by the prophets and fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth, and who are willing to believe that their condition is far better than it really is, will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building. But there will be no time then to do it and no Mediator to plead their cause before the Father. Before this time the awfully solemn declaration has gone forth, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” I saw that none could share the “refreshing” unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence.{EW 71.2} 

As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus’ mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment. {EW 280.2}

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So then it is true for all mankind that there is no more atoning sacrifice - no blood to cover sins after that point.

But for the saints we have the same fellowship with God - the same "no longer I who live but Christ that lives in me" as before. Yet there is no more sacrifice for sin.

That is a very "different" kind of "Close of Probation" than one might experience by simply being in a fatal car crash.

And the one who accepts Christ today - then dies tonight has the offer of forgiveness of sin right up until the last - -- this is not true of those that live through the time of the 7 last plagues.

First:  You should know that I do not accept the writings of Mrs White, as without error.  I do not accept her as a spokeswoman for God.  I personally want to stick to only the Scriptures, where doctrine is concerned.  My question was to clarify for myself, just how Adventists understand the "close of probation" and Christ's mediation. 

Second:  In the "vision" you referenced from Early Writings, Mrs White also describes Jesus IN the Most Holy Place, dressed in the glorious garb with the blue ephod, the breastplate, the bells and pomegranates, and the golden miter crown.  This is the WRONG CLOTHING for the Most Holy Place.  (Lev Cpt 16) describes how the high priest was to be dressed on the Day of Atonement WHEN he entered the MHP.  He was to be dressed in plain white linen. 

Three:  On the Day of Atonement (anciently) ONLY the camp of ISRAEL was judged.   The nations who lived in ignorance were NOT "judged" on this DAY.  Their "probation" did NOT close on this day.  I have a hard time believing that the mediation of Christ is finished for all human beings - for all time, ON THIS DAY.   

Four:  All sins were to be confessed BEFORE the Day of Atonement.  No sacrifices for individuals were offered ON THIS DAY - and certainly NOT while the high priest was "in the Most Holy Place".   

Fifth:  I do NOT believe that the fulfillment of the ancient Day of Atonement prophecy, began back in 1844.  Passover, Firstfruits, and Pentecost were each fulfilled on ONE DAY.  Why would we think the Fall Feasts would be fulfilled in a different manner.  The DAY of Atonement was exactly that - ONE DAY.    I believe the DoA will be fulfilled on the DAY that Jesus returns.  He will go before the Heavenly "court" to receive the "dominion", and will immediately come forth in glory to bless His own, AND He will banish Satan to the uninhabited place ON THAT SAME DAY - just as depicted in the ancient ceremony.   

Sixth:  I believe that the "saints" will be on the earth during the warning trumpet judgments, but will be resurrected/translated on the SAME DAY that the final wrath plagues are poured out.  "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day" ( Rev. 18:8). 

Jesus will not go before the Heavenly Court until that Day.  UNTIL - THAT DAY Jesus will be mediating His blood for every person who believes. 

Seventh:  Jesus ascended TO the Most Holy Place after His resurrection.  He sits at the right hand of the Father.  If THAT is not the Most Holy Place - I wouldn't know where it is. 

NRS Hebrews 6:19 We have this hope, a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters the inner shrine behind the curtain,

NIV Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,  by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, (Heb 10:19 NIV)

Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

Edited July 11, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[BobRyan]

I know that Mrs White said that men will "stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator".  I'm too tired to look it up right now.  Maybe one of you EGW buffs can find it for me.  Anyway, was she saying this about sinners only, or was she saying this about the redeemed also? 

What about someone who dies a short time after he comes to believe?  That person is obviously NOT YET perfect in the literal sense - just in the "covered"-by-the-perfect-blood sense.  

When this person is resurrected at the SC, what then?  He will "stand in the sight of a holy God".   But he was not yet perfect when he died, at least not in the literal sense of never sinning - even by a thought.    If believers are NOT rendered perfect in every aspect of mind/body/spirit (even thoughts) at the Second Coming, and still have some "growing to do" then would not the "grace" of the covering "blood" have to continue FOR those not-yet-perfect persons?

First:  You should know that I do not accept the writings of Mrs White, as without error.  I do not accept her as a spokeswoman for God.  I personally want to stick to only the Scriptures, where doctrine is concerned.  My question was to clarify for myself, just how Adventists understand the "close of probation" and Christ's mediation. 

in your OP you appear to be asking for a reference from the inspired writings of Ellen White - so I gave it. Since that statement on the close of probation and end of Christ's work in the Sanctuary is the topic of the thread - using your quote of it.

So then - for the sake of accuracy I provided the quote.

If you prefer the discussion to just focus on Rev 15:8-16:2 and 1 John 2:1 and 1Tim 2 we can also do that. But you seemed to be selecting the Ellen White option.

Second:  In the "vision" you referenced from Early Writings, Mrs White also describes Jesus IN the Most Holy Place, dressed in the glorious garb with the blue ephod, the breastplate, the bells and pomegranates, and the golden miter crown.  This is the WRONG CLOTHING for the Most Holy Place

There are 1000's upon 1000's in that MHP scene as Dan 7 points out - and not "just two" as we have in the MHP in the tiny type that we have in the "earthly tent".

And in Lev 16 the High Priest wears only humble garments and first offers a sacrifice for himself and his sins -- in Lev 16. Christ does not do either of those things as the perfect spotless infinite God - High Priest.

I think we were all aware of that - but we did not have to say "WRONG" in response to God's demonstration of that fact.

So then -- Ellen White's message given to her by God - is correct.

 

 

.  (Lev Cpt 16) describes how the high priest was to be dressed on the Day of Atonement WHEN he entered the MHP.  He was to be dressed in plain white linen. 

Three:  On the Day of Atonement (anciently) ONLY the camp of ISRAEL was judged.   The nations who lived in ignorance were NOT "judged" on this DAY.  Their "probation" did NOT close on this day.  I have a hard time believing that the mediation of Christ is finished for all human beings - for all time, ON THIS DAY.   

Even the Jews know that this Yom Kippur is the day on which God judges the world.

Israel in Romans 2, 9, and 11 is a term specific to the church which is why in Heb 11 the New Covenant is "only" with Israel and Judah.

God's statement in Lev 16 and Matt 7 is "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord" will be shown to be true Israel.

Ellen White's message given to her by God - is correct.

 

Four:  All sins were to be confessed BEFORE the Day of Atonement.  No sacrifices for individuals were offered ON THIS DAY - and certainly NOT while the high priest was "in the Most Holy Place".   

The Holy Place ministry lasted 1 year - but Christ has been  standing as our High Priest for 2000 years - the timeline is different. - obviously.

The High Priests work in the MHP included the slaying of the sin offering - Christ is not dying on the cross in the MHP of heaven. The compression of all sin offerings are fulfilled in the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ. That includes the sacrifice made in Lev 16 - so also the ministry for Atonement - declared all through the year - and focused in Lev 16 - points to Christ's work in the MHP which includes both the judgment and the mediation of all earthly "types" for the priest.

What is more Christ is both High Priest Heb 8:1-6 and also judge john 5:22.

thus the Bible affirms the message God gave Ellen White on this doctrine.

I don't think your suggestions survive a close Bible review of some of the details listed so far.

 

 

 

Seventh:  Jesus ascended TO the Most Holy Place after His resurrection.  He sits at the right hand of the Father.  If THAT is not the Most Holy Place - I wouldn't know where it is. 

NRS Hebrews 6:19 We have this hope, a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters the inner shrine behind the curtain,

NIV Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,  by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, (Heb 10:19 NIV)

Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

There are two curtains in the Sanctuary Moses built -- and two in the book of Hebrews.

Heb 9

Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. ² For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. ³ Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, ⁴ having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant

Entering with Christ through the curtain in Paul's day would have been the first curtain.

in Christ,

Bob

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Bob,

What I'm saying is that - if Mrs White was shown Christ in Heaven, standing before the Ark - in the "daily" garb (rather than the plain white linen garb) - maybe the LORD was trying to say that it was NOT YET the Day of Atonement.   The early Adventists missed the clue, because they longed so dearly for His soon return.  They did get it wrong, when they said that probation had already closed.  They said that for 7 years. 

Christ ascended to the Most Holy Place, so yes - He could be standing before the Ark in the "daily" glorious garb.  That would be correct.  There is no "veil" separating apartments - in Heaven itself. 

I believe the Day of Atonement ceremony, typified an EVENT - Christ's coming before the "court" of Daniel 7:9-10, to receive the "dominion".   I agree - that EVENT will ONLY HAPPEN ONCE - in all of eternity. Just as He only died ONCE.  Jesus did not come before THAT "court" when He ascended. 

Jesus said, "I know My sheep."  He is God.  He does not need to look through "books" to decide who belong to Him.  It doesn't have to take 175+ years.  He knows instantly - who belongs to Him, and who does not.

Bob,

I was raised SDA.  That is why I remember some things she wrote.  I asked about that specific statement BECAUSE I'm trying to understand just how Adventists got their belief that the "blood of Jesus" cannot cover anyone AFTER He returns in glory. 

The "blood" of the "daily" covered all sins of ignorance.  My understanding is that they applied this also to the sins of ignorance committed by persons who were not "of Israel".  Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would have no sin."  Paul says that God "overlooked" them.  Paul also says "where there is no law, there is no condemnation".  I understand that to mean that those who have never HEARD the Law, are not judged "guilty" of rebellion against it. 

If those "sins of ignorance" also passed into the Tabernacle via the priest, would they not  - also - have been placed upon the head of the scapegoat? 

So those who committed those "sins of ignorance" would NOT be condemned at the SC. 

But they cannot be taken straight into the kingdom either - not without their consent - not without belief in Christ as LORD and King.  THAT would be manipulation.  That's why I'm saying that "the rest of the dead" will be all those who have not yet CHOSEN - either for or against God. 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

What I'm saying is that - if Mrs White was shown Christ in Heaven, standing before the Ark - in the "daily" garb (rather than the plain white linen garb) - maybe the LORD was trying to say that it was NOT YET the Day of Atonement.  

Ellen White states that God specifically says that this was the Day of Atonement antitype.

And as I point out there are a number of details such as the High Priest offering a sacrifice for his own sins on the Day of Atonement, and also slaying the sin offering on the Day of Atonement - that cannot be held as a sort of wooden rule for the antitype since Christ offers no sacrifice for his own sins, nor is he crucified in 1844.

As the priest entered the most holy once a year to cleanse the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation, and thus to cleanse the sanctuary.
(254) {EW 253.1}

I was shown a Sanctuary upon earth containing two apartments. It resembled the one in heaven. I was told that it was the earthly Sanctuary, a figure of the heavenly. The furniture of the first apartment of the earthly Sanctuary was like that in the first apartment of the heavenly. The vail was lifted, and I looked into the Holy of Holies, and saw that the furniture was the same as in the Most Holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary. The priests ministered in both apartments of the earthly. In the first apartment he ministered every day in the year, and entered the Most Holy but once in a year, to cleanse it from the sins which had been conveyed there. I saw that Jesus ministered in both apartments of the heavenly Sanctuary. He entered into the heavenly Sanctuary by the offering of his own blood. The earthly priests were removed by death, therefore they could not continue long; but Jesus, I saw, was a priest forever. Through the sacrifices and offerings brought to the earthly Sanctuary, the children of Israel were to lay hold of the merits of a Saviour to come. And in the wisdom of God the particulars of this work were given us that we might look back to them, and understand the work of Jesus in the heavenly Sanctuary. {1SG 160.1}

At the crucifixion, as Jesus died on Calvary, he cried, It is finished, and the vail of the temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom. This was to show that the services of the earthly Sanctuary were forever finished, and that God would no more meet with them in their earthly temple, to accept their sacrifices. The blood of Jesus was then shed, which was to be ministered by himself in the heavenly Sanctuary. As the priests in the earthly Sanctuary entered the Most Holy once a year to cleanse the Sanctuary, Jesus entered the Most Holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Dan, viii, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by his mediation, and to cleanse the Sanctuary. {1SG 161.1}

=============================

So then 1800 years for the 1 year in the type and about 150 the MHP segment

 

 

[BobRyan]

Bob,

What I'm saying is that - if Mrs White was shown Christ in Heaven, standing before the Ark - in the "daily" garb (rather than the plain white linen garb) - maybe the LORD was trying to say that it was NOT YET the Day of Atonement.  

I think your conclusion misses some key details  -- that are "different" between the type and the antitype

The Holy Place ministry lasted 1 year - but Christ has been  standing as our High Priest for 2000 years - the timeline is different. - obviously.

The High Priests work in the MHP included the slaying of the sin offering - Christ is not dying on the cross in the MHP of heaven. The compression of all sin offerings are fulfilled in the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ. That includes the sacrifice made in Lev 16 - so also the ministry for Atonement - declared all through the year - and focused in Lev 16 - points to Christ's work in the MHP which includes both the judgment and the mediation of all earthly "types" for the priest.

What is more Christ is both High Priest Heb 8:1-6 and also judge john 5:22.

thus the Bible affirms the message God gave Ellen White on this doctrine.

I don't think your suggestions survive a close Bible review of some of the details listed so far.

The early Adventists missed the clue, because they longed so dearly for His soon return.  They did get it wrong, when they said that probation had already closed.  They said that for 7 years. 

The SDA church formed in the 1860's

As you point out the Millerites that went through the 1844 experience did come out of that with some incorrect conclusions - as their best guess.

Christ ascended to the Most Holy Place, so yes - He could be standing before the Ark in the "daily" glorious garb.  That would be correct. 

Christ ascended to begin the first part of the work as High Priest - the daily service which is not in the MHP.

 

There is no "veil" separating apartments - in Heaven itself. 

Some have been there and have seen others have not been there to see.

Heb 8 says that there is a copy of the heavenly - and you seem to be saying that the curtain in heaven in Heb 10 is real but not the one in Heb 9.

We differ on how that is to be applied. Clearly God makes a big deal about that difference/distinction between those sections of the Sanctuary -  in Heb 9 and in 10 and in Daniel 7.

 

I believe the Day of Atonement ceremony, typified an EVENT - Christ's coming before the "court" of Daniel 7:9-10, to receive the "dominion".   I agree - that EVENT will ONLY HAPPEN ONCE - in all of eternity. Just as He only died ONCE.  Jesus did not come before THAT "court" when He ascended. 

Jesus said, "I know My sheep."  He is God.  He does not need to look through "books" to decide who belong to Him.  It doesn't have to take 175+ years.  He knows instantly - who belongs to Him, and who does not.

The Daniel 7 IJ scene is not about "God taking the time to figure something out" it is about facts being demonstrated to "thousands upon thousands" in that courtroom based on objective facts in books - in other words - recorded proven fact.