Without a Mediator

[BobRyan]

I'm sorry that I started a thread, referring to a statement by Ellen White.  What I WANTED was to set her aside for this thread,

I agree that starting a thread with a quote - and asking people for the right reference for that quote - is a highly unique way of saying "on this thread I do not want to quote this author or discuss what they have written on this topic.

I don't know of many non-SDAs that do that.

[BobRyan]

When dealing with mediation, there are a number of difference concepts involved.  Some of the comments on this thread are dealing with Christ as a Mediator in the terms of a go-between between us and the Father.  In John 15, Jesus makes the comment that I say I pray the Father on your behalf, for the Father Himself loves you, so I think the comments in this thread regarding the concept that we don't need Jesus as a Mediator make sense, in this context.

However, the context of the EGW comment seems to me to be a different one.  I understand her to be saying that there is a process going on in the heavenly sanctuary, and that process will continue until the close of probation, at which point that process will stop.  So when she says the 144,000 will stand before God without a mediator, I understand this to mean exactly the same thing as her saying that the 144,000 will not have the benefits of this process which has stopped.

It's not that Christ is not available to them through the Holy Spirit, but this one specific act of Christ, the work in the heavenly sanctuary, this specific process stops.

Of course, this begs the question as to what Christ is doing in the Most Holy Place, but I hope this post will help in clarifying just what it is we are talking about.

Indeed -- it is all about what Christ is doing - the Atonement includes both the work of Christ as "sin offering" as the "atoning sacrifice" AND the work of Christ as "High Priest" applying that blood atonement according to God as He describes it in Lev 16. Thankfully - His message to Ellen White agrees perfectly with what He stated in Lev 16.

 

And God's statement in 1Tim 2:4 and in Heb 4 and 1John 2:1 regarding Christ as our one Mediator, as our Advocate - is read - even by non-SDAs who know nothing at all about Ellen White. So that much we could have gotten right from the Bible.

So then it is the Bible that tells us that all of that stops at the start of the Rev 16 7 last plagues - not just what God told Ellen White about it - but also what God told John the revelator.

in Christ,

Bob

[8thdaypriest]

I agree that starting a thread with a quote - and asking people for the right reference for that quote - is a highly unique way of saying "on this thread I do not want to quote this author or discuss what they have written on this topic.

I don't know of many non-SDAs that do that.

Rub it in Ryan.

[8thdaypriest]

So then it is the Bible that tells us that all of that stops at the start of the Rev 16 7.

You believe that the redeemed will be on the earth during the 7 wrath plagues.  I do not.  I believe they will be on the earth during the warning trumpet plagues, which will occur during the 42 months (1260 days, time, times, and a part).  But that's a separate topic.

If Jesus will no longer forgive - anything less than perfect harmony with His Father's Law - even by a thought, after a point in time, that means each of these people must be PERFECT in character.  And anything LESS THAN PERFECT (after that moment in time) will not be covered by the blood of Christ.  It sounds as if you are saying that Jesus will remove the covering (of His blood) which He had over His people.  They have to stand there on their own merits.  That thought used to make me so afraid, I couldn't go to sleep at night.

I KNOW I'm not perfect.  Most every Christian knows that - in his heart.  So how could I go from sinner to saint - in the time left before Jesus takes away His covering???  I couldn't !!!!!!  But if THAT is what's necessary - then I am LOST for sure. 

The idea that the last "saints" will reach Christ like perfection before Jesus comes - says (to me) that our God must artificially manipulate the minds of these last people, to render them PERFECT, so that they can stand in the sight of God without His covering. 

When an Israelite brought a sin offering, his sin was forgiven.  But the man himself was NOT rendered perfect in mind and heart.  Not at that moment.  That Israelite may have had a long way to go - to perfection.  I believe that we human beings have been so thoroughly damaged by sin (sin within and sin around us) that it will take 1000 years in a healing environment before all the damage will be healed.  I just don't believe the healing takes place in a moment, or even within the years of a single earthly lifetime. 

If God will manipulate - if that is something He does - if that is consistent with His character, then He should have manipulated Eve/Adam, so they would not eat the fruit, and we could have skipped this whole painful mess.  The length of this horrible, painful experience down here, tells me that my God does NOT manipulate human minds. 

I believe that Passover is a TYPE, that tells us just how we are delivered from the last plagues.  The Israelites gathered inside houses painted with the BLOOD of the Passover Lamb.  Christ is our Passover.  We gather UNDER His blood covering.  That is HOW we are shielded from the final plagues.  Anyone NOT under that blood covering - will suffer the last plagues.  Far from removing His covering,  the redeemed will be shielded by that covering. 

[BobRyan]

You believe that the redeemed will be on the earth during the 7 wrath plagues.  I do not. 

 

You are free to believe as you wish.

 

My bible says in Matt 24 "immediately AFTER the great tribulation... He will gather His elect".

And in 2Thess 2 we are reminded again that it is not until after the full disclosure of Satan that we have the 2nd coming.

And in Rev 22 we find that the close of probation period is given as a warning to all of John's readers as if that warning is meant for believers - not unbelievers.

"He who is Holy -- Holy still" is going to be a "believer" in my book.

But as I said you are free to believe as you wish

 

 

 

I believe they will be on the earth during the warning trumpet plagues, which will occur during the 42 months (1260 days, time, times, and a part).  But that's a separate topic.

If Jesus will no longer forgive - anything less than perfect harmony with His Father's Law - even by a thought, after a point in time, that means each of these people must be PERFECT in character.  And anything LESS THAN PERFECT (after that moment in time) will not be covered by the blood of Christ.

It means they cannot sin and then expect to have atoning sacrifice applied in their behalf to cover that sin after the Rev 15:8 point in time.

They must go through that Rev 16 chapter without a mediator pleading blood-atonement for them, and obtaining pardon for them for future sins.

1 Tim 2:4 "ONE Mediator between God and man" no longer performing that function - because the MHP is shut down for that purpose - as the text says it must be in order for the plagues to fall.

1John 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin NOT - if anyone does sin - we have (and need) an advocate with the Father"

.

 

  It sounds as if you are saying that Jesus will remove the covering (of His blood) which He had over His people. 

I am only talking about future sins - on the books of record the past sins have been "blotted out" according to the Bible.

 

They have to stand there on their own merits.  That thought used to make me so afraid, I couldn't go to sleep at night.

I KNOW I'm not perfect.  Most every Christian knows that - in his heart.  So how could I go from sinner to saint - in the time left before Jesus takes away His covering???  I couldn't !!!!!! 

 

Romans 8:5-8 for starters.

Then Romans 6

And 1 John 3 for the grand finale.

Let's take Romans 8 for example  --

⁴ so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. ⁵ For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. ⁶ For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, ⁷ because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, ⁸ and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

⁹ However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding perfection of character, I found Robert Wieland to have some nice thoughts.  If you take a statement like COL 69, it says, "Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own."  This says that Christ's character is reproduced in "His people".  Wieland made the point this is refering to the bride of Christ, the 144,000 as a group, so the idea is not that there are 144,000 "Christ's" going around, each one perfect in his own little world, but there is a corporate body, functioning as it is supposed to, each person fulfilling their position in the body.

He would also use as an analogy that if you take a broken piece of a mirror, and point it at the sun, it's so bright you can't look at it.

[8thdaypriest]

Yes - I am free to believe that LESS than perfect human beings will be "covered" by the blood of Jesus, right up to and even past the Second Coming - IF they believe in Him as Savior. and serve Him as LORD.  I do believe that KNOWN sins (the 10 Commandment variety) must be confessed and repented of.  I do not believe one can "hang on" to sins like stealing, murder, adultery, idolatry, or using the LORD's name irreverently  and still regard oneself "covered". 

What I'm talking about are the sort of sins that one may not be fully aware of - within.   Like pride - for instance.  Or a feeling of self-righteousness, when comparing ones self with another.  Or traces of selfishness.  I once asked HIM what He considered my greatest sin.  The word IMPATIENCE immediately flooded my mind.  I had not before regarded THAT as a sin.  But I was forced to take a hard look at myself, and had to confess that I was/am often less than patient with the weaknesses of others.  I've asked HIM to work on that one - with me.  He showed me that this was a form of pride. 

You've heard the expression, "Be patient with me.  God is not finished with me - yet."  Well - I don't believe that God will be "finished" with redeemed humanity, at the Second Coming.  Our rehabilitation will only have just begun.  The very last person won to Jesus may not have much time to purge old behaviors.  She may be like the woman "taken in adultery" or "the woman at the well".  She will believe, and she will worship Him - and Jesus will save her. 

[LifeHiscost]

Yes - I am free to believe that LESS than perfect human beings will be "covered" by the blood of Jesus, right up to and even past the Second Coming - IF they believe in Him as Savior. and serve Him as LORD.  I do believe that KNOWN sins (the 10 Commandment variety) must be confessed and repented of.  I do not believe one can "hang on" to sins like stealing, murder, adultery, idolatry, or using the LORD's name irreverently  and still regard oneself "covered". 

What I'm talking about are the sort of sins that one may not be fully aware of - within.   Like pride - for instance.  Or a feeling of self-righteousness, when comparing ones self with another.  Or traces of selfishness.  I once asked HIM what He considered my greatest sin.  The word IMPATIENCE immediately flooded my mind.  I had not before regarded THAT as a sin.  But I was forced to take a hard look at myself, and had to confess that I was/am often less than patient with the weaknesses of others.  I've asked HIM to work on that one - with me.  He showed me that this was a form of pride. 

You've heard the expression, "Be patient with me.  God is not finished with me - yet."  Well - I don't believe that God will be "finished" with redeemed humanity, at the Second Coming.  Our rehabilitation will only have just begun.  The very last person won to Jesus may not have much time to purge old behaviors.  She may be like the woman "taken in adultery" or "the woman at the well".  She will believe, and she will worship Him - and Jesus will save her. 

I like, but I'm of the opinion this Word below will be in affect up until the other verse quoted below is obtained, by the power and grace of God.

…7Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. 8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…Isaiah 55

…51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.…1 Corinthians 15

In the meantime, this needs be a daily exercise of the mind and heart.

31I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. ...1 Corinthians 15

For the believer this does not mean we pursue or practice any known sin, but does mean we will be experiencing this principle continuously..

20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me....Galatians 2

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[BobRyan]

Yes - I am free to believe that LESS than perfect human beings will be "covered" by the blood of Jesus, right up to and even past the Second Coming - IF they believe in Him as Savior. and serve Him as LORD.

As do we all.

The point where we differ is that when Christ ceases his mediatorial work in the sanctuary as we see in Rev 15:8 so that the 7 last plagues can fall on mankind -- that this "matters". The key benefit to the saints "I write to you that you sin not - but IF anyone does sin we have an advocate" -- that ends.

No sinning as Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven where He then rushes back to the heavenly sanctuary puts on the High Priests garments of intercession and pleads the blood atonement as your advocate - for your newly committed sin.

And no sinning when Jesus steps out of that MHP and the 7 last plagues fall - either.

 

  I do believe that KNOWN sins (the 10 Commandment variety) must be confessed and repented of. 

As do we all

 

I do not believe one can "hang on" to sins like stealing, murder, adultery, idolatry, or using the LORD's name irreverently  and still regard oneself "covered". 

Agreed. I think these are points every would agree with. But it still leaves the point about Rev 15:8

 

What I'm talking about are the sort of sins that one may not be fully aware of - within.   Like pride - for instance.  Or a feeling of self-righteousness, when comparing ones self with another.  Or traces of selfishness.

Romans 8:4-9 and Romans 6 covers that well. We need victory over those sins as well.

 

[JoeMo]

The point where we differ is that when Christ ceases his mediatorial work in the sanctuary as we see in Rev 15:8 so that the 7 last plagues can fall on mankind -- that this "matters". The key benefit to the saints "I write to you that you sin not - but IF anyone does sin we have an advocate" -- that ends.

No sinning as Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven where He then rushes back to the heavenly sanctuary puts on the High Priests garments of intercession and pleads the blood atonement as your advocate - for your newly committed sin.

And no sinning when Jesus steps out of that MHP and the 7 last plagues fall - either.

By the time the 7 last plagues fall, the saints will have been raptured off of the earth.  So why would Jesus need to intercede for those left on earth upon whom the last plagues fall?  They're "done".

To my knowledge, scripture never says that Jesus permanently leaves the HoH and permanently ceases His function as high priest.

[8thdaypriest]

By the time the 7 last plagues fall, the saints will have been raptured off of the earth.  So why would Jesus need to intercede for those left on earth upon whom the last plagues fall?  They're "done".

To my knowledge, scripture never says that Jesus permanently leaves the HoH and permanently ceases His function as high priest.

"Thou art a priest FOREVER, according to the order of Melchizedek"  (Psa 110:4, Heb 7:17). 

[pnattmbtc]

8thday:The word "atonement" means "reconciliation".  He is making reconciliation.  We are reconciled to the Father, through the Son.  WE are reconciled.  The Father is not reconciled to us.  WE are reconciled to HIM.  The angels, and other heavenly beings - ALSO - needed a reconciliation of sorts, after Satan brought questions into their minds regarding the Father's character and government. 

I wouldn't say "atonement" means "reconciliation", because I think "atonement" has a broader meaning, but I do think that reconciliation is the key aspect of atonement.  When we think of Christ's work in the MHP, given that atonement "means" reconciliation, then what Christ is doing in the MHP would have to do with our reconciliation.

The most interesting things I've read on this subject are by Robert Wieland.  If anyone is interesting, I can try to find something online.  Presenting in my own words ideas I've assimilated from him, the Gospel is good news, and, since Christ started His work in the MHP, a parallel concept would be the Gospel in an end-time setting.  The Wieland concept is that there is a work of deeper reconciliation going on, which involves unknown sin, where unknown sin refers primarily to the sin of crucifying Christ, the idea being that when grasp our part in that act, that leads to a deeper repentance and a deeper reconciliation with God.  The work of Christ in the MHP involves leading us to a deeper repentance, a closer relationship with God than was possible before the endtime, because now we have more light about God's character and His love.

Rachel mentioned sins less thought of, like pride and impatience, as impediments to perfection of character, and it was precisely these sorts of sins that Wieland focused on.

[8thdaypriest]

03722 rp;K' kaphar {kaw-far'}
Meaning:  1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch 1a) (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch 1b) (Piel) 1b1) to cover over, pacify, propitiate 1b2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for 1b3) to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites 1c) (Pual) 1c1) to be covered over 1c2) to make atonement for 1d) (Hithpael) to be covered
Origin:  a primitive root; TWOT - 1023,1024,1025,1026; v
Usage:  AV - atonement 71, purge 7, reconciliation 4, reconcile 3, forgive 3, purge away 2, pacify 2, atonement...made 2, merciful 2, cleansed 1, disannulled 1, appease 1, put off 1, pardon 1, pitch 1; 102

Most interesting "to coat or cover with pitch".  Makes me think of Noah.  Those within the ark would have received atonement. 

[pnattmbtc]

03722 rp;K' kaphar {kaw-far'}
Meaning:  1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch 1a) (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch 1b) (Piel) 1b1) to cover over, pacify, propitiate 1b2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for 1b3) to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites 1c) (Pual) 1c1) to be covered over 1c2) to make atonement for 1d) (Hithpael) to be covered
Origin:  a primitive root; TWOT - 1023,1024,1025,1026; v
Usage:  AV - atonement 71, purge 7, reconciliation 4, reconcile 3, forgive 3, purge away 2, pacify 2, atonement...made 2, merciful 2, cleansed 1, disannulled 1, appease 1, put off 1, pardon 1, pitch 1; 102

Most interesting "to coat or cover with pitch".  Makes me think of Noah.  Those within the ark would have received atonement. 

I think of it primarily as reconciliation, so very similar to what you said.

[BobRyan]

By the time the 7 last plagues fall, the saints will have been raptured off of the earth.  So why would Jesus need to intercede for those left on earth upon whom the last plagues fall?  They're "done".

To my knowledge, scripture never says that Jesus permanently leaves the HoH and permanently ceases His function as high priest.

Matt 24 says the rapture happens AFTER the great tribulation -- not before or during. "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect"

2Thess 2 says that the rapture "our gathering together to him" does not happen until AFTER the antichrist in the form of satan himself shows up - counterfeit to Christs coming.

Heb 8 says that Christs work as our High Priest in doing IN the Sanctuary in heaven - not outside of it.

Rev 15:8 says that work ceases BEFORE the Rev 16 seven last plagues not during or after.

And so for all eternity - saints will not be engaging in more sinning.

 

in Christ,

Bob

 

 

[JoeMo]

Matt 24 says the rapture happens AFTER the great tribulation -- not before or during. "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect"

2Thess 2 says that the rapture "our gathering together to him" does not happen until AFTER the antichrist in the form of satan himself shows up - counterfeit to Christs coming.

Heb 8 says that Christs work as our High Priest in doing IN the Sanctuary in heaven - not outside of it.

Rev 15:8 says that work ceases BEFORE the Rev 16 seven last plagues not during or after.

And so for all eternity - saints will not be engaging in more sinning.

 

in Christ,

Bob

 

 

On the other hand, God tells the church of Thyatira in Rev. 2:24  "Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25 except to hold on to what you have until I come.’"

To the church in Philidelphia, He says in Rev. 3:10 "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep youfrom the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

John says says in Rev 14:14-16 that "I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[b] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvestof the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."  This happens chronologically right before the 7 bowls of God's wrath fall on the earth.

Paul says in Romans 5:9 "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

Again in 1 Thessalonians 1:10, he says "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." Again in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 he says "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What wrath might Paul be talking about?  The seven bowls!  But Paul implies that the church is either raptured or otherwise protected just prior to the seven bowls falling.  The antichrist is also established prior to the seven bowls.  I can't see it any other way. 

[8thdaypriest]

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. (NKJ)

The "time of Jacob's trouble" will be the "time, times, and a part" (1260 days, 42 months) during which the saints are "given into his hand" (Dan. 7:25)  That time ENDs with the pronouncement of the Heavenly Court, giving dominion to Christ and His saints. 

The START of this time period is:  "they shall take away the daily, and place there the abomination of desolation".  (Dan. 11:31).  This is when "the people who know their God shall be strong and carry out great exploits"  And those of the people who understand shall instruct many, yet for many days they shall fall by sword, and flame, by captivity and plundering" (Dan 11:32-33). 

Daniel 12:7  "it shall be for a time, times, and half a time, and WHEN the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."  "Completely shattered" sounds like "great tribulation" to me. 

The "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-15 are said to be "the ones who come out of the great tribulation".  I don't think this means that all of these people went through the last 1260 days.  I think that is the time frame, of their deliverance.  They will be resurrected, or translated at the END of the "great tribulation period".  That's the same in Daniel 12:1-3. 

In Daniel 12:1 Michael stands up, or "will arise".  Michael has been sitting at the right hand of the Father.  He rises to go into the Court scene of Daniel 7:9-10.  I think it possible that the time of the Court meeting in Heaven, parallels the last 1260 days on earth, during which the "saints" are severely persecuted. 

WHEN the "kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ" (Rev 11:15), which HAPPENS at the 7th Trumpet, (and the conclusion of the Heavenly Court scene in Daniel)  THEN the 24 elders say, "Your wrath has come".  "Your wrath" would be the 7 last vial plagues.  It is also TIME to "reward Your servants" and to "destroy those who destroy the earth" (Rev. 11:15-18).  The wrath plagues destroy them, along with the earth. 

  

[8thdaypriest]

The last 7 wrath plagues BEGIN under the 7th Trumpet. 

The "two witnesses" testify and are persecuted for 42 months (Rev. Cpt 11).  Then they are killed.  Three and a half days later, they are resurrected, and the voice of God calls them up to Heaven. 

Revelation 11:14  "And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.'  And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them."  AND the 7th Trumpet sounds.  And a voice says "the second woe is past".    The third "woe" would be the vial wrath plagues under the 7th trumpet.  It looks to me - like the witnesses are in heaven, during that 3rd woe.

[8thdaypriest]

I'm wondering whether the LORD considers the 7 wrath plagues on the wicked a "time of trouble".  Maybe the "time of Jacob's trouble" IS the "time of trouble such as never was".  After all - the universal Beast power will try to wipe out the people of God.  They will be "given into his hand" and will be "completely shattered". 

The execution of the wicked, would not be a "time of trouble".  It would be justice - from God's point of view. 

[8thdaypriest]

I copied my last 3 posts over to the thread on whether the redeemed will be on the earth during the last wrath plagues. 

[BobRyan]

The last 7 wrath plagues BEGIN under the 7th Trumpet. 

The "two witnesses" testify and are persecuted for 42 months (Rev. Cpt 11).  Then they are killed.  Three and a half days later, they are resurrected, and the voice of God calls them up to Heaven. 

Revelation 11:14  "And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.'  And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them."  AND the 7th Trumpet sounds.  And a voice says "the second woe is past".    The third "woe" would be the vial wrath plagues under the 7th trumpet.  It looks to me - like the witnesses are in heaven, during that 3rd woe.

The 1260 years (42 months, 1260 days, times time 1/5 time) are the dark ages of persecution of the saints and are see in Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 and Dan 7 - it is all speaking about the same 1260 year period of time.

[BobRyan]

On the other hand, God tells the church of Thyatira in Rev. 2:24  "Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25 except to hold on to what you have until I come.’"

Thyatira is the persecuted church of the dark ages.

 

To the church in Philidelphia, He says in Rev. 3:10 "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep youfrom the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

Philadelpha - represents the Millerite movement and early Adventists.

 

 

 

John says says in Rev 14:14-16 that "I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[b] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvestof the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."  This happens chronologically right before the 7 bowls of God's wrath fall on the earth.

Rev 14 :14-16 happens shortly after Rev 14:6-12 where the "Everlasting Gospel" was preached to the whole earth under the Three Angel's message that Seventh-day Adventists are now preaching.

 

Paul says in Romans 5:9 "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

 

1 Peter 3 also says that Noah was saved - but that does not mean he was raptured.

Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels and they will gather His elect" -- it happens after the tribulation not before or during

2 Thess 2 "regarding our gathering together to Him... that day will NOT happen until after" the falling away AND the man of sin is reveal

Rev 19 is AFTER the Rev 16 plagues -- not before.

Rev 20 the FIRST resurrection is AFTER the Rev 16 last plagues - not before. ANd the "dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1Thess 4 - at the FIRST resurrection.

 

 

 

Again in 1 Thessalonians 1:10, he says "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." Again in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 he says "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What wrath might Paul be talking about?  The seven bowls!  But Paul implies that the church is either raptured or otherwise protected just prior to the seven bowls falling.  The antichrist is also established prior to the seven bowls.  I can't see it any other way. 

The point that God does not gather His saints until AFTER the tribulation is clear in Matt 24. But that does not mean He pours out His wrath "on the saints".

 

The "FIRST" resurrection that John sees - is in Rev 20 and he says this is the resurrection of the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

By the time the 7 last plagues fall, the saints will have been raptured off of the earth.  So why would Jesus need to intercede for those left on earth upon whom the last plagues fall?  They're "done".

To my knowledge, scripture never says that Jesus permanently leaves the HoH and permanently ceases His function as high priest.

Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels and they will gather His elect" -- it happens after the tribulation not before or during

2 Thess 2 "regarding our gathering together to Him... that day will NOT happen until after" the falling away AND the man of sin is reveal

Rev 19 is AFTER the Rev 16 plagues -- not before.

Rev 20 the FIRST resurrection is AFTER the Rev 16 last plagues - not before. ANd the "dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1Thess 4 - at the FIRST resurrection.

[8thdaypriest]

The 1260 years (42 months, 1260 days, times time 1/5 time) are the dark ages of persecution of the saints and are see in Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 and Dan 7 - it is all speaking about the same 1260 year period of time.

NKJ  Revelation 13:1 "Then I1 stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Anyone else besides me, see that the world marveled AFTER the "deadly wound was healed" ?  The BEAST is given authority to continue 42 months (same as the 1260 days, same as the time, times and a part) AFTER the "deadly wound was healed".  He is "grafted to make war with the saints and to overcome them" AFTER "the deadly wound was healed".  He was given authority over EVERY nation AFTER "the deadly wound is healed". 

This passage of Revelation matches Daniel 7.  The "little horn" on the "terrible" Beast with 10 horns, Is "making war against the saints and prevailing against them UNTIL a judgment was made in favor of the saints AND THE TIME CAME for the saints to possess the kingdom" (Dan 7:25).  This puts it right down at the END.  The 4th terrible Beast with the "little horn" persecutes the saints for "a time, times and half a time" until the Court sits, and takes away his dominion (Dan. 7:22, 25-26).  

Students of Bible prophecy, eager to believe the return of Christ was very near, placed the interpretation of this passage back in the "Dark Ages" - but it just doesn't FIT.  (In my opinion - of course.)

[8thdaypriest]

The Catholic Church, during the Dark Ages, did NOT rule over "every tribe, tongue, and nation".  "All who dwell on earth" did not worship her during the Dark Ages.  There were many cultures and peoples on the earth who did NOT worship her, and over whom she did NOT have authority back then.  

Now - maybe she WILL "rise again", and the Pope be appointed the spokes-person for every religion on earth.  We just do not yet KNOW what power Satan will use to rule the world in the last days (those of us who do not look to EGW).  What we DO KNOW is how long the last period of persecution will last, before our final deliverance.