Without a Mediator

[8thdaypriest]

I agree.  There will be no such time period.

I think, I disagree. I believe the Day of Atonement found its fulfillment on the cross.  The Bible says that on the day of atonement people are cleansed from all sins:

^NAS Leviticus 16:30 for it is on this day that ¹atonement shall be made for you to ^acleanse you; you shall be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

On the cross, Jesus washed us clean from sin in His blood:

^KJV Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

He is the Supreme Sacrifice for sin: He is the High Priest Who offered the supreme sacrifice for sin: He is the Scapegoat that carried our sins to the grave, where no living inhabits.  The annual Yum Kippur of the old covenant found its fulfillment in the New Covenant on the day our Savior died.

In this passage Moses speaks TO the congregation of Israel.  He is NOT SPEAKING to the whole world.  The word "you" in this verse refers to Israel - not to "the nations".

In Revelation 1:5, John is writing TO "His servants" and "to the seven churches which are in Asia".  Once again, John is NOT WRITING to the general public.  He is writing to believers.  When he says that Jesus has "washed us from our sins" he means that Jesus has washed believers. 

Samie,

You site these verses to say that Christ "washed" every human being.  These verses do NOT say that.  You have taken the verses out of context.

[8thdaypriest]

But why did Sister White say a complete and perfect atonement had been done at the cross? If there was complete and perfect atonement done at the cross, why would there be a need of another day of atonement?

I don't know why she said that.  I do not look to EGW for interpretation of Scripture. 

[8thdaypriest]

Of course his white garments represented purity, for the High Priest was going before the Lord, yet he was not pure himself as was Jesus. He was a suppliant, a begging sinner before the Lord as was everyone else in the congregation. His simple white garments as were worn by all the other priests  represented commonality  in the sense that he was no longer to be dressed in distinction as High Priest of Israel.

I think the explanations given in both Bible commentaries are more than adequate to explain why Jesus would not be dressed as a sinful suppliant when he entered the heavenly Most Holy Place ,, and he needn't wear pure white for He was pure in heart, unlike the earthly high priest.

How could the vision be telling Mrs White and Adventists that it was not yet the Day of Atonement if in the vision she saw Jesus and the angels go into the Most Holy Place? What other occasion would have Jesus entering the Most Holy Place other than to begin making a final atonement for his people? Your reasoning makes no sense, unless you think God was trying to trick her by showing Jesus entering therein. 

In light of the sound reasoning as to why Jesus need not dress as the earthly high priest  on the Day of Atonement, her description  of Jesus' garments adds more credence to  the authenticity of the vision. If she were making it all up, she could have easily just copied from the Bible's description of the high priest's garments. But she didn't. She told it like she saw it and now we can understand why.

 

 

Jackson,

As you know, I do not accept that Mrs White HAD visions from God.  So - I really cannot say WHY she "saw" what she claimed to have "seen". 

Dressing in "white linen" is NOT dressing "as a sinful suppliant".  It is dressing as one covered with righteousness - or as one declared righteous. 

I do not agree that the commentaries you quoted gave "sound reasons" for WHY Jesus would be dressed as Mrs. White claims He was in her "vision". 

 

[8thdaypriest]

There is a sacrifice that makes an atonement for sin and there is a final atonement that removes all confessed sin from the sanctuary, putting it on the head of a scapegoat. You are confusing the two. Jesus' blood need only be offered once because He is both the sacrificial offering and the High Priest, and He need only die once. His blood will make an atonement for each confessed and forsaken sin; and for the final atonement when these sins are permanently removed from the Heavenly Sanctuary at the close of the judgment. He only dies once.ATONEMENT FOR SINNERS
Lev 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, [even] of the herd, and of the flock. 1:3 If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
This is the atonement made by Jesus (He being our propitiation) at the cross. It is conditional awaiting the repentance of sinners.

FINAL ATONEMENT
Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
This final atonement is what Jesus is now accomplishing in the most

Holy Place

, for He is acting as the antitypical high Priest. His blood also allows Him to be the antitypical Day of Atonement sacrificed goat goat. Satan will, of course, be the antitypical goat upon which all the sins of confessed and repentant sinners will be placed when the Judgment closes.

 Samie, if you think that Jesus made a complete and final atonement at the cross, then you will have to conclude that the types of the two atonements laid out in Leviticus are not types at all and are not profitable for doctrine. You are also going to have to explain:

1. Why the Day of Atonement (if it came at Jesus death) came before the antitypical day of Pentecost which came 50 days later?
2 Why Hebrews says Christ is our "minister of the Heavenly Sanctuary", if final atonement was accomplished at his resurrection?
3. What use does the

Holy Place

(First Apartment) have in Christ's Heavenly ministry if He never went there?
4 How Christ can cleanse the Heavenly Sanctuary in a final atonement when almost 2000 years of confessed and forsaken sins have been sent there since His ascension?
5. How the final atonement can precede the judgment, or does your doctrine negate the necessity of a judgment?
6 Who is the scapegoat upon whom all sins are placed , and where is the wilderness to which he is driven. When does this occur?  

 

You have misapplied Mrs White's statement about the atonement at the cross. Of course it was complete to pardon repentant sinners, but it was not the atonement that removed sins from the sanctuary and placed them on Satan. That is the antitypical Day of Atonement whick occurs after the judgment.

Jackson,

It's nice to agree with you on some things. 

But - I don't agree that Jesus is "now making" this atonement in the Most Holy Place of Heaven itself.  I believe that DAY is future. 

 

[Samie]

In this passage Moses speaks TO the congregation of Israel.  He is NOT SPEAKING to the whole world.  The word "you" in this verse refers to Israel - not to "the nations".

In Revelation 1:5, John is writing TO "His servants" and "to the seven churches which are in Asia".  Once again, John is NOT WRITING to the general public.  He is writing to believers.  When he says that Jesus has "washed us from our sins" he means that Jesus has washed believers. 

Samie,

You site these verses to say that Christ "washed" every human being.  These verses do NOT say that.  You have taken the verses out of context.

Can you, 8thdaypriest, answer the following questions?

1. How many times did Jesus do the washing of sins?

2. Where did Jesus do the washing of sins?

3. When did Jesus do the washing of sins?

I just want to be sure where you're coming from.  My answers to the above questions would be 1 for #1, cross for #2, & when He died for #3. Do you have the same answers as mine?  If Yes, then why exclude anyone from being washed?  But if No, then I'd like to know your answers and why.

[8thdaypriest]

Can you, 8thdaypriest, answer the following questions?

1. How many times did Jesus do the washing of sins?

2. Where did Jesus do the washing of sins?

3. When did Jesus do the washing of sins?

I just want to be sure where you're coming from.  My answers to the above questions would be 1 for #1, cross for #2, & when He died for #3. Do you have the same answers as mine?  If Yes, then why exclude anyone from being washed?  But if No, then I'd like to know your answers and why.

So Samie - I guess you won't start a new thread.  Oh well.

[Stan]

there is a lot of text here that I have not read.. 

 

I do have to ask this..  

Is there ever a time that the Sacrifice and the Atonement took place at the same time?

If not...

Why would it be view that Christ sacrifice and atonement took place at the same time?

[pnattmbtc]

I am happy that the Bible makes clear Jesus is our sin-bearer.  Through Him and Him alone, did God make a complete atonement for us.  Through Him our sins were banished, never to have dominion over us again.  The role of the scapegoat at Yom Kippur is a major one in the atonement process.

I wonder why there are those who want to give Satan that major role in the atonement process.

  On 8/28/2015, 9:26:49, pnattmbtc said:

You're misunderstanding what's being said, Samie, if you think Satan has a major role in the atonement process.

Did I think or the others?

You.  Nobody has suggested that Satan has a major role in the atonement process. 

  On 8/28/2015, 9:26:49, pnattmbtc said:

You're misunderstanding what's being said, Samie, if you think Satan has a major role in the atonement process.  I suggest re-reading the posts if this is what you're thinking, because no one has asserted what you are saying.  Satan will be held responsible for his role causing others to sin, but atonement has to do with reconciliation, and there is nothing in what Satan is doing which is dealing directly with that theme.

Is the role of the scapegoat at Yom Kippur not a major one?  If it is, then, why would not the position that the scapegoat represents Satan be not giving Satan that major role?  And who says the role of the scapegoat has nothing to do with atonement?

Leviticus 16:10   10 "But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

Atonement brings about forgiveness and cleansing from sin. Cleansing entails the removal or taking away of that which causes uncleanness. And it is the scapegoat that will take away the sins of the people after these sins were transferred to it by the High Priest who confessed all these sins upon its head.

What happens in Leviticus is symbolic of what happens in reality. In reality, Jesus Christ bore our sins on the cross, and Satan will be made to accept responsibility for his part in influencing others to sin, and for bringing about sin. 

[LifeHiscost]

 

 

You.  Nobody has suggested that Satan has a major role in the atonement process. 

 

 

Unless that role would be to motivate us toward the Redeemer as we become aware of our need when assaulted by the enemy of souls, and as allowed by our sovereign Father. I'm sure totally exasperating to the enemy of our souls since his primary purpose is to destroy us.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;…Romans 8

God is Love!   Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, we already showed (previous page) that the Jews understood Azazel to be Satan.  For example:

And secondly the Lord said to Raphael, 'BIND
AZAZEL HAND AND FOOT and THROW HIM INTO THE
DARKNESS!'  And he made a hole in the desert which is in Dudael
and CAST him there; he threw on top of him jagged and sharp rocks.
And he covered his face in order that he may not see light, and in order
that HE MAY BE SENT INTO THE FIRE ON THE GREAT DAY
OF JUDGMENT" (Book of Enoch, 8:1-10:7).

 I suppose you would have to argue that this is not a part of Scripture, but that doesn't matter to the point of demonstrating what the Jewish understanding was of Azazel.  Also note the Jews had an understanding of Azazel's being cast into the wilderness corresponding to a time of banishing (although there understanding was 10,000 years instead of 1,000 years).

[Samie]

there is a lot of text here that I have not read.. 

 

I do have to ask this..  

Is there ever a time that the Sacrifice and the Atonement took place at the same time?

If not...

Why would it be view that Christ sacrifice and atonement took place at the same time?

Technically, not simultaneously, but successively on the same day.  Sacrifice first, then Atonement.

Yes, Stan, and that occured at the cross, as pointed forward to by the first animal death in Eden the same day Adam sinned, and by all subsequent animal sacrifices for sin in the old covenant, as exemplified at Yom Kippur.  At Yom Kippur, both the sacrificial death and atonement occur at the same day (see Lev 16).  That is why that day is called Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement.

^NAS Leviticus 16:30 for it is on this day that atonement shall be made for you to cleanse you; you shall be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

In like manner, the Supreme Sacrifice and Atonement for sin occurred on the same day, on the day the Lamb which taketh away the sin of the world died at Calvary's cross.

^NAS Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

In the New Testament, Reconciliation and Atonement are from the same Greek "katallagh,  "

[Samie]

You.  Nobody has suggested that Satan has a major role in the atonement process.

Samie, we already showed (previous page) that the Jews understood Azazel to be Satan.  For example:

 I suppose you would have to argue that this is not a part of Scripture, but that doesn't matter to the point of demonstrating what the Jewish understanding was of Azazel.  Also note the Jews had an understanding of Azazel's being cast into the wilderness corresponding to a time of banishing (although there understanding was 10,000 years instead of 1,000 years).

Again, the issue is who does the scapegoat represent, Jesus or Satan? I believe it is Jesus. The scapegoat of Yom Kippur is sin-bearer. Jesus is our sin-bearer, so the Bible EXPLICITLY says.

You believe the scapegoat represents Satan, ergo, it goes without saying that for you Satan is sin-bearer. And you once said the scapegoat has nothing to do with atonement, but I had replied with a verse that the Bible seems to say otherwise. 

I respect your style of proving your position extra-biblically.  I 'll just stay with the Bible and the Bible alone principle.

[pnattmbtc]

Again, the issue is who does the scapegoat represent, Jesus or Satan? I believe it is Jesus. The scapegoat of Yom Kippur is sin-bearer. Jesus is our sin-bearer, so the Bible EXPLICITLY says.

You believe the scapegoat represents Satan, ergo, it goes without saying that for you Satan is sin-bearer. And you once said the scapegoat has nothing to do with atonement, but I had replied with a verse that the Bible seems to say otherwise. 

I respect your style of proving your position extra-biblically.  I 'll just stay with the Bible and the Bible alone principle.

This wasn't responsive to the text presented.  You can't just ignore it.  Well, I guess you can (since you did), but it goes to show how the text was understood.  Why do you think the Jews understood the text that way?

 

[pnattmbtc]

 Samie: I 'll just stay with the Bible and the Bible alone principle.

Also wanted to respond to this.  What principle are you referring to? Is there somewhere in the Bible that says that we shouldn't look outside of the Bible to understand what words mean? 

[Samie]

This wasn't responsive to the text presented.  You can't just ignore it.  Well, I guess you can (since you did), but it goes to show how the text was understood.  Why do you think the Jews understood the text that way?

I don't know why they understand things this or that way, and I'm sorry to say this, but history has shown that the Jewish nation is rebellious to the will of God.  Because of this, their understanding of Azazel could possibly be against what God really means.  And I'm glad there's the Bible to guide us through the leading of the Holy Spirit.

[Samie]

Also wanted to respond to this.  What principle are you referring to?

I am referring to the Adventist principle of Sola Scriptura. From the SDA website www.adventist.org:

Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as the only source of our beliefs. We consider our movement to be the result of the Protestant conviction Sola Scriptura—the Bible as the only standard of faith and practice for Christians.

 

Is there somewhere in the Bible that says that we shouldn't look outside of the Bible to understand what words mean?

 I don't think the Bible prohibits us from consulting outside sources.  But knowing from extra-biblical source the meaning of a word in the Bible is not the same as knowing what the writer really means. In the case of the scapegoat and whether it represents Jesus or Satan, I'll stick with what's in the Bible.

[Samie]

When I have more time I will try to show    through scripture alone, that Jesus is now in the Most Holy Place executing those duties associated with the judgment and finall atonement/cleansing of the Heavenly.Sanctuary .Any ideas in which thread this attempt should be placed?

Scriptures say we have already received atonement when Jesus died:

Romans 5:10-11   ¹⁰ For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  ¹¹ And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

How many atonements does Jesus have to do?

[JoeMo]

When I have more time I will try to show    through scripture alone, that Jesus is now in the Most Holy Place executing those duties associated with the judgment and finall atonement/cleansing of the Heavenly.Sanctuary .Any ideas in which thread this attempt should be placed?

Hey jackson,

I agree with you that Christ is currently in the MHP.  I can't speak for 8thday, but I think she will agree with you as well.  I don't think He is fulfilling the actual final Day of Atonement (which doesn't happen until around the 2nd Coming); but He does sit at the right hand of the Father; and wherever the Father is IMHO is the MHP.  The issue I have is that according to Hebrews, Christ entered the MHP after His resurrection 1985 years ago when He ascended into heaven - not 171 years ago in 1844, like EGW says.  I also believe that He is there offering His blood as atonement for sin; not doing an Investigative Judgement.  If you can prove from scripture alone that Christ entered the MHP in 1844 to do the investigative judgement, my hat is off to you.

Edited September 1, 2015 by JoeMo

[8thdaypriest]

Can you, 8thdaypriest, answer the following questions?

1. How many times did Jesus do the washing of sins?

2. Where did Jesus do the washing of sins?

3. When did Jesus do the washing of sins?

I just want to be sure where you're coming from.  My answers to the above questions would be 1 for #1, cross for #2, & when He died for #3. Do you have the same answers as mine?  If Yes, then why exclude anyone from being washed?  But if No, then I'd like to know your answers and why.

He washes each human being individually - one at a time - as each person responds to His spirit - with belief in Him as Savior.

Therefore, there are as many washings as persons who believe in Him.

He washes each person - where the individual is located at the moment he/she believes. 

The "washing" takes place in the HEART of the one who believes.  It is a spiritual "washing" - not a literal one. 

Those who do NOT BELIEVE are not yet washed, and may remain unwashed, if they resist the Spirit. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Ah yes, sweet agreement. Maybe one day,you and I  will be in full agreement. After all, with God all things are possible; yes, even this.

When I have more time I will try to show    through scripture alone, that Jesus is now in the Most Holy Place executing those duties associated with the judgment and finall atonement/cleansing of the Heavenly.Sanctuary .Any ideas in which thread this attempt should be placed?

 

Why not start a new one.  Just title it "1844".

[8thdaypriest]

Hey jackson,

I agree with you that Christ is currently in the MHP.  I can't speak for 8thday, but I think she will agree with you as well.  I don't think He is fulfilling the actual final Day of Atonement (which doesn't happen until around the 2nd Coming); but He does sit at the right hand of the Father; and wherever the Father is IMHO is the MHP.  The issue I have is that according to Hebrews, Christ entered the MHP after His resurrection 1985 years ago when He ascended into heaven - not 171 years ago in 1844, like EGW says.  I also believe that He is there offering His blood as atonement for sin; not doing an Investigative Judgement.  If you can prove from scripture alone that Christ entered the MHP in 1844 to do the investigative judgement, my hat is off to you.

I don't believe there are "rooms" or "apartments" in "Heaven itself".  I believe the "two apartments" represented two ministries, the first a continuous one (up to the second one) and the second one a final appearance of the HP (Christ) as the representative of Israel, at the final judgment scene, and also as the fit man who will banish the scapegoat to the uninhabited place.

Because I do NOT believe the DAY of Atonement has yet arrived, I do not believe that Jesus has symbolically entered the "apartment" which symbolized the DAY of Atonement work. 

All of Heaven IS "most holy" and the closer one comes to the Father, the more holy.  So we've been talking about two different things.

1.  The holiest PLACE

2.  The "ministry" of a specific "appointed time"  - The DAY of Atonement

One is a LOCATION (proximity to God).  The other is a ministry - specific to an EVENT. 

Hope that makes sense.

 

[JoeMo]

All of Heaven IS "most holy" and the closer one comes to the Father, the more holy.  So we've been talking about two different things.

1.  The holiest PLACE

2.  The "ministry" of a specific "appointed time"  - The DAY of Atonement

One is a LOCATION (proximity to God).  The other is a ministry - specific to an EVENT. 

Hope that makes sense.

 

It makes sense to me.  I was thinking about this right after my previous post.  I agree - the MHP is a place; and the DAY of Atonement is an event.  Unlike the High priests of old who could only enter the MHP once a year, Christ can enter it whenever He wants. He NEVER has to worry about cleansing Himself of sin prior to being in the presence of His Father.

[8thdaypriest]

Aw rachel,  you do know why Mrs White said that Jesus' atonement at the cross was perfect.. We had a once in a blue moon agreement a few posts back where we could show from scripture that there are effect two atonements. An atonement for sin, transferring the  sin  from the sinner to the sanctuary, and a final atonement that cleanses the sanctuary and puts all forgiven sins on Satan.the instigator of those sins.

The perfect atonement Mrs White spoke of was the atonement that forgives all repented and forsaken sins. As scripture plainly shows, this was not the final atonemnt. 

Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people.  {ST, June 28, 1899 par. 3} 

 

 The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the day of atonement. {CCh 348.1}

 

Jesus WAS the "perfect" sacrifice - the perfect "Lamb".  Yes. 

There was one type of sin, that could NOT be atoned for, by bringing a sacrifice.  It  was "rebellious" sin.  Some call it "sin with attitude".  David believed that he had committed that type of sin, when he committed kidnapping, rape, and murder.  No wonder he spent a week on his face!! 

[8thdaypriest]

Scriptures say we have already received atonement when Jesus died:

Romans 5:10-11   ¹⁰ For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.  ¹¹ And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

How many atonements does Jesus have to do?

Jesus was the atoning sacrifice - ONCE.  His blood (or ashes) are APPLIED to each individual AS each one responds to the drawing of the Spirit. 

The sprinking of the ashes of the "red heifer" symbolizes this well.  It is NOT poured on everyone at one time.  It is applied - person by person, by person.

Each person is "reconciled to God" as he/she believes (under the influence of the Spirit).  Before being "reconciled" each one was an "enemy" of God, BECAUSE "the carnal (fleshly) mind is at enmity with God". 

 

[Samie]

He washes each human being individually - one at a time - as each person responds to His spirit - with belief in Him as Savior.

Therefore, there are as many washings as persons who believe in Him.

He washes each person - where the individual is located at the moment he/she believes. 

The "washing" takes place in the HEART of the one who believes.  It is a spiritual "washing" - not a literal one. 

Those who do NOT BELIEVE are not yet washed, and may remain unwashed, if they resist the Spirit. 

You have to show Scripture for that.

I can show Scripture saying God made us alive TOGETHER with Christ. I think we both agree that TOGETHER does not mean "one at a time".