Without a Mediator

[Samie]

Aw rachel,  you do know why Mrs White said that Jesus' atonement at the cross was perfect.. We had a once in a blue moon agreement a few posts back where we could show from scripture that there are effect two atonements. An atonement for sin, transferring the  sin  from the sinner to the sanctuary, and a final atonement that cleanses the sanctuary and puts all forgiven sins on Satan.the instigator of those sins.

The perfect atonement Mrs White spoke of was the atonement that forgives all repented and forsaken sins. As scripture plainly shows, this was not the final atonemnt. 

Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people.  {ST, June 28, 1899 par. 3} 

 

 The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the day of atonement. {CCh 348.1}

 

Can you explain why would God keep a record of sins He refuses to remember?

Hebrews 10:17   And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more

[8thdaypriest]

The "sin offering" symbolized the final END of the sinner - consumed in fire. 

It ALSO symbolized the Lamb of God, who stood in the sinners place - in the "fire". 

The "whole burnt offering" symbolized BOTH the penalty for breaking covenant, AND the One who paid that penalty. 

The "serpent" symbolized Satan - right?

Yet the "brazen serpent" lifted up on the pole, symbolized Jesus, who was "made to be sin" for us, and heals the sting of the "serpent".

THIS "serpent" symbolized BOTH Christ and Satan.

So than what about the "scapegoat"?  Could that goat symbolize BOTH ?  Personally - I believe it does. 

When Jesus DIED on Calvary, He hung there condemned of God.  He was "cut off".  For Him - it WAS judgment Day.  Maybe the "uninhabited place" to which He was banished, was a place "uninhabited" by God (not uninhabited with people). 

Unrepentant sinners - like that scapegoat, will be "banished" to a place uninhabited by God.  And they will "carry" their own sin (symbolically) to that "place".    

[Samie]

Aw rachel,  you do know why Mrs White said that Jesus' atonement at the cross was perfect.. We had a once in a blue moon agreement a few posts back where we could show from scripture that there are effect two atonements. An atonement for sin, transferring the  sin  from the sinner to the sanctuary, and a final atonement that cleanses the sanctuary and puts all forgiven sins on Satan.the instigator of those sins.

Lev 16 says there is only ONE atonement for the sins of the people which were all TRANSFERRED to the scapegoat:

Leviticus 16:30  ³⁰ For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Our sins were transferred to Him Crucified and when He died a PERFECT atonement was done for our sins.  Why would you need Satan for the final atonement? Why give him a major role in atonement? What cleansing need be done to the Sanctuary in heaven, a holy place where nothing unclean, much more sin, can be allowed?

[8thdaypriest]

Can you explain why would God keep a record of sins He refuses to remember?

Hebrews 10:17   And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more

 

The verse is NOT time specific. 

God will not remember their sins - AFTER - they are cleansed from the Sanctuary. 

If you are correct, that God "forgave ALL sin, for ALL time" back before He had even created anything - then He "forgot" them BEFORE they even existed.  That doesn't make sense. 

Jesus said, "I know My sheep".  "My sheep hear My voice".  He does not need to "investigate" any records of sins, deposited in the Sanctuary. 

The judgment scene of Daniel 7:9-10, is a ceremony, in which "dominion" of earth is taken from Satan (and his servants) and is given to "the Son of Man".  Christ then immediately removes from the earth, those "who are His".   He knows instantly, now know - and will know, "those who are His".  He knows them.  He doesn't need any time to determine just WHO these people are. 

The point to me of a "record" of "sin offerings" brought, is that the people who bring those sacrifices - humbly, in faith - will make up the redeemed Israel of God. 

The "record" is not so much of "sins" as it is a record of the repentant.  It's a list of people.  Jesus will say, "These are mine.  These are my people." 

[Samie]

The verse is NOT time specific. 

God will not remember their sins - AFTER - they are cleansed from the Sanctuary. 

 Unless you provide Scriptural support, you just appear to be adding to what the Father Himself said. Be careful.

 

If you are correct, that God "forgave ALL sin, for ALL time" back before He had even created anything - then He "forgot" them BEFORE they even existed.  That doesn't make sense.

I had always included the phrase "contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of our Lord", a phrase you omitted, why?

Jesus said, "I know My sheep".  "My sheep hear My voice".  He does not need to "investigate" any records of sins, deposited in the Sanctuary. 

The judgment scene of Daniel 7:9-10, is a ceremony, in which "dominion" of earth is taken from Satan (and his servants) and is given to "the Son of Man".  Christ then immediately removes from the earth, those "who are His".   He knows instantly, now know - and will know, "those who are His".  He knows them.  He doesn't need any time to determine just WHO these people are. 

The point to me of a "record" of "sin offerings" brought, is that the people who bring those sacrifices - humbly, in faith - will make up the redeemed Israel of God. 

The "record" is not so much of "sins" as it is a record of the repentant.  It's a list of people.  Jesus will say, "These are mine.  These are my people." 

It appears you are saying there is nothing to be cleansed from the Sanctuary.

So this statement of yours doesn't make any sense: "God will not remember their sins - AFTER - they are cleansed from the Sanctuary."

[8thdaypriest]

You have to show Scripture for that.

I can show Scripture saying God made us alive TOGETHER with Christ. I think we both agree that TOGETHER does not mean "one at a time".

No!  We do not "both agree". 

God made Christ alive, and THEN Christ resurrected the "many saints" of Matthew  27:52-53. 

The saints at Ephesus were NOT literally "dead", they were dead because of their trespasses.  They were condemned to death.  They were under the "curse".  Believing in Jesus as their substitute or "sin offering" freed them from "the curse".  

Ephesians 2:5 "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved --".

I still say that IF God forgave ALL sin, for ALL time, before it was ever committed, then these people WERE NEVER DEAD.  They could not have come under "the curse" because of trespasses, if ALL trespasses were already forgiven, BEFORE they were even committed.  There would have BEEN no curse. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[pnattmbtc]

If you are correct, that God "forgave ALL sin, for ALL time" back before He had even created anything - then He "forgot" them BEFORE they even existed.  That doesn't make sense.

Samie: I had always included the phrase "contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of our Lord", a phrase you omitted, why?

What would God's forgiveness be contingent?  Why wouldn't He simply forgive?  Isn't this what the cross demonstrates, that God forgives? 

[8thdaypriest]

 Unless you provide Scriptural support, you just appear to be adding to what the Father Himself said. Be careful.

 

 

I had always included the phrase "contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of our Lord", a phrase you omitted, why?

 

It appears you are saying there is nothing to be cleansed from the Sanctuary.

So this statement of yours doesn't make any sense: "God will not remember their sins - AFTER - they are cleansed from the Sanctuary."

OK - He will not "remember" their sins AFTER the Day of Atonement, because they are now GONE. 

 

 

[Samie]

I can show Scripture saying God made us alive TOGETHER with Christ. I think we both agree that TOGETHER does not mean "one at a time".

No!  We do not "both agree". 

Oh, sorry. English is not my first language.  I just knew from you that "together" means "one at a time".

The saints at Ephesus were NOT literally "dead", they were dead because of their trespasses.  They were condemned to death.  They were under the "curse".  Believing in Jesus as their substitute or "sin offering" freed them from "the curse".  

Ephesians 2:5 "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved --".

Using your word meaning for "together", Eph 2:5 can be read as "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive one at a time with Christ -- by grace you have been saved --".

I still say that IF God forgave ALL sin, for ALL time, before it was ever committed, then

these people WERE NEVER DEAD

.  They could not have come under "the curse" because of trespasses, if ALL trespasses were already forgiven, BEFORE they were even committed.  There would have BEEN no curse. 

What curse are you saying when the Bible says the curse of death was abolished by our Lord?

2 Timothy 1:9-10   ⁹ Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,  ¹⁰ But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

There is no death for the righteous; the death with which people now die is but sleep. When the righteous dies now, he remains in the body of Christ Who cannot die.  This is why Scriptures say God is the God of the Living.

Unlike the unrighteous - those who refused to overcome evil with good, when they die, they are blotted out from the Book of Life, dismembered from the body of Christ, expelled from membership in the family of God.  There are two Deaths for the wicked, that's why there is Second Death.  The first Death is through the 7 last plagues. The second Death is the lake of fire.

[Samie]

 I had always included the phrase "contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of our Lord", a phrase you omitted, why?

What would God's forgiveness be contingent?  Why wouldn't He simply forgive?  Isn't this what the cross demonstrates, that God forgives? 

Yes, the cross.  Without the cross, there is no forgiveness. That's what the Bible says.  The forgiveness mentioned in the Old Covenant as a result of the atonenent process using the blood of animals simply points forward to the death of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. Only His blood cleansed us from sin. Had He refused to drink the cup, then all - including those "forgiven" in the old covenant - are doomed.

[8thdaypriest]

Yes, the cross.  Without the cross, there is no forgiveness. That's what the Bible says.  The forgiveness mentioned in the Old Covenant as a result of the atonenent process using the blood of animals simply points forward to the death of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. Only His blood cleansed us from sin. Had He refused to drink the cup, then all - including those "forgiven" in the old covenant - are doomed.

So - IF Jesus had refused to drink the cup, then God would have "remembered" again, the sins that He had already "forgotten".   Makes God's memory sound a little spongy.  To me - your interpretation of Scripture concerning just WHEN humans beings are FORGIVEN, just doesn't make sense. 

[8thdaypriest]

Oh, sorry. English is not my first language.  I just knew from you that "together" means "one at a time".

Using your word meaning for "together", Eph 2:5 can be read as "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive one at a time with Christ -- by grace you have been saved --".

What curse are you saying when the Bible says the curse of death was abolished by our Lord?

2 Timothy 1:9-10   ⁹ Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,  ¹⁰ But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

There is no death for the righteous; the death with which people now die is but sleep. When the righteous dies now, he remains in the body of Christ Who cannot die.  This is why Scriptures say God is the God of the Living.

Unlike the unrighteous - those who refused to overcome evil with good, when they die, they are blotted out from the Book of Life, dismembered from the body of Christ, expelled from membership in the family of God.  There are two Deaths for the wicked, that's why there is Second Death.  The first Death is through the 7 last plagues. The second Death is the lake of fire.

You're saying that the "righteous" NEVER DIE.  They simply "sleep".   I believe that ALL men  "sleep" in physical death.  Not just the righteous. 

You seem to believe that the wicked do NOT "sleep" - they actually DIE. 

Now we're going to get into the "State of the Dead" and ramifications thereof. 

First:  I would say that human beings can DIE the "first death", more than one time.  All the people that Christ and the Apostles, and Elijah, etc.  raised to continue their physical lives, later DIED AGAIN.  They died physical death - again. 

The "second" TYPE of death is only ONCE.  The "second death" is the death from which there IS NO RESURRECTION.

So - my understanding is that the "first death" is physical death.  It is the death that every person DIES (except those who are still living to meet the LORD when He comes). 

Those who DIE because of the trumpet judgments, and the 7 last plagues will DIE the "first death" - yes - simple physical death.  Now - They will die very painfully, and those who are wicked will DIE with the awareness that they have been judged and condemned. 

My belief concerning the "second death" is that

1.  There is NO THIRD RESURRECTION.  Those wicked humans who were "raised to shame and everlasting contempt" at the Second Coming, will remain physically DEAD, after they DIE in the plagues.   They have been judged, and condemned, and executed.  There is NO benefit - for anyone - to be gained by resurrecting them AGAIN, to condemn them AGAIN, and to execute them AGAIN.   God is not a sadist, to torment human beings again and again. 

2.  ONLY God's retained "memory" of them will be thrown into the special "lake of fire" - NOT their physical bodies - NOT with awareness.  They will NOT be resurrected, AGAIN, before what God has retained of them (the essence He could use to resurrect them again) is thrown into the Lake of Fire.   

3.  The "second death" is spirit death.  The Lake of Fire was "created" FOR Satan and his angels" BECAUSE they are spirit beings, and the "lake of fire" was the only way to destroy them. 

4.  Satan and his angels will be "tormented" "forever and ever" (unto the age of the ages) - NOT - wicked human beings. 

5.  I believe the REASON why God created human beings as flesh and mortal, was BECAUSE He did not want those who were "lost",  to be tormented forever and ever, as Satan and his spirit beings will be. 

NOTE:  I do NOT believe that Jesus died the "second death".  I believe He died the physical death of those condemned of God.  His death was special, because HE was special - God's own Son. 

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death.

He took on human flesh, in order to DIE as a human - to die physical death as one condemned of God. 

[Samie]

So - IF Jesus had refused to drink the cup, then God would have "remembered" again, the sins that He had already "forgotten".   Makes God's memory sound a little spongy.  To me - your interpretation of Scripture concerning just WHEN humans beings are FORGIVEN, just doesn't make sense. 

I surmise, "refusing to remember" is a bit different from "forgetting".  He can remember, why not, but He just refuses to.  But forgetting is quite different.  Anyway, "if Jesus had refused to drink the cup" is hypothetical. He had already died and all sins had been forgiven. And there's no turning back from "I will remember their sins no more".

 

[8thdaypriest]

 

     What curse are you saying when the Bible says

the curse of death was abolished by our Lord?

2 Timothy 1:9-10   ⁹ Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,  ¹⁰ But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

What curse? 

The word "cherem" (#02764) translated as "curse" means "devoted to destruction".

    Malachi 4:4-6  “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.  And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

  The LORD instructed Joshua to completely destroy or “devote to destruction,” the cities of the Canaanites.  The army of Joshua was to “kill everything living” - every man, woman, and child, and also every animal.

Joshua is a TYPE of Jesus, and the "Canaanites" are a TYPE of the wicked. 

The city of Jericho was "devoted to destruction" (or cursed), and the curse included every living thing within those cities.  Yet Rahab and her "family" were spared, because they blessed Israel.  The "red cord" symbolized the blood, painted on the door posts.  In other words these individuals came under Christ, while the rest of the city was "devoted to destruction".  

The entire world has been "under the curse" and "doomed to destruction" since Adam ate the forbidden fruit, and this earth came under Satan's dominion.  Only those individuals who come under Christ's protection (by BELIEVING in HIM) will be spared.   

Edited September 2, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

There is a study at my website titled "Cursed".  Here's the link.

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/17b-CURSED.pdf

[Samie]

You're saying that the "righteous" NEVER DIE.  They simply "sleep".   I believe that ALL men  "sleep" in physical death.  Not just the righteous. 

You seem to believe that the wicked do NOT "sleep" - they actually DIE.

My position has always been: both righteous and wicked sleep in death now.

[Samie]

The saints at Ephesus were NOT literally "dead", they were dead because of their trespasses.  They were condemned to death

.  They were under the "

curse

".

Believing

in Jesus as their substitute or "sin offering" freed them from "the curse".  

Ephesians 2:5 "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ -- by grace you have been saved --".

I still say that IF God forgave ALL sin, for ALL time, before it was ever committed, then these people WERE NEVER DEAD.  They could not have come under "the curse" because of trespasses, if ALL trespasses were already forgiven, BEFORE they were even committed.  There would have BEEN no curse. 

What curse are you saying when the Bible says

the curse of death was abolished by our Lord?

2 Timothy 1:9-10   ⁹ Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,  ¹⁰ But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

When you said "They were condemned to death.  They were under the "curse".", I understood it as you saying the curse is the curse of death, hence my reply above, that Jesus abolished death.  Therefore "contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of our Lord", no one is spiritually dead.  Explains why everyone is capable of doing spiritual acts like believing, repenting, etc., because we all are, through Him, spiritually alive.

To say that a person had to believe first BEFORE he can be made spiritually alive, is to me, putting the cart before the horse, because it is saying that while spiritually dead, a person can do spiritual acts.  It is sort of taking some credit from Christ and transfer the credit to man who unless first puts in his share could not have been made spiritually alive.

 

[8thdaypriest]

Oh, sorry. English is not my first language.  I just knew from you that "together" means "one at a time".

Using your word meaning for "together", Eph 2:5 can be read as "even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive one at a time with Christ -- by grace you have been saved --".

"made us alive together with Christ"

Does this mean that every human being was "made alive" at the same moment that Christ was resurrected by His Father?

NOT every human being, but every redeemed person. 

God can and does speak of those things which are not, as if they are, because He knows that they absolutely WILL BE.  The phrase "for all live to Him" comes to mind.  When Christ was raised from death, the eternal life of everyone who had believed and would believe, BECAME a sure reality - to God - who exists in past/present/and future simultaneously.  

The letter to the Ephesians was written TO "the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus".   Every time Paul writes "us" or "you" or "we",  he is speaking to (and of) "the saints", those who will finally be the redeemed.  Everyone ELSE, (those who will end up lost) were NOT "made alive" (guaranteed of eternal life) when Christ was resurrected. 

Same for the letter to the Collossians.

Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (NKJ)

This verse DOES NOT SAY that Christ God forgave every sin, of every person (believer or not) who ever lived.  It just doesn't say that.

[Samie]

"made us alive together with Christ"

Does this mean that every human being was "made alive" at the same moment that Christ was resurrected by His Father?

NOT every human being, but every redeemed person. 

God can and does speak of those things which are not, as if they are, because He knows that they absolutely WILL BE.  The phrase "for all live to Him" comes to mind.  When Christ was raised from death, the eternal life of everyone who had believed and would believe, BECAME a sure reality - to God - who exists in past/present/and future simultaneously.  

The letter to the Ephesians was written TO "the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus".   Every time Paul writes "us" or "you" or "we",  he is speaking to (and of) "the saints", those who will finally be the redeemed.  Everyone ELSE, (those who will end up lost) were NOT "made alive" (guaranteed of eternal life) when Christ was resurrected. 

Same for the letter to the Collossians.

Colossians 2:13 "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (NKJ)

This verse DOES NOT SAY that Christ God forgave every sin, of every person (believer or not) who ever lived.  It just doesn't say that.

Sorry for my asking, but were you a Calvinist before?  Defenders of Calvinism when presented with "for God do loved the world" would say, "for God so loved the world of the elect". I'm sad for the comparison but it looks like you're in the same boat with Calvinists in this issue. Reading "forgiven us all our sins" you would have it read "forgiven us believers all our sins".

Here's my response to Pnatt in the other thread concerning our discussion with Col 2:13:

Pnatt;

I admire your jumping in to my discussion with Rachel that stemmed from Col 2:13 that says all our sins were forgiven on the cross. 

I believe all sins of all people for all times including those yet to be born were all forgiven through the death of the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world.  Rachel believes otherwise, reasoning that Col 2:13 is not to be generally applied since it was written for the Colossians, not to everyone.  Since forgiveness stems from the gospel, I countered that Paul was not merely referring to the Colossians as far as the Gospel is concerned citing Col 1:5,6.  Then you jumped in with your CONTEXT, and all else is history.

I have explained my position that when the Gospel is the issue, anything in the Bible, even if written to a specific person or to a group of persons, MUST be generally applied. That's my position because Christ and Him Crucified died for us all.  In this regard, what I need is not a course and diploma on CONTEXT, but a simple, Bible-based explanation why this specific position of mine is wrong.  Can you do that, please?

[8thdaypriest]

When you said "They were condemned to death.  They were under the "curse".", I understood it as you saying the curse is the curse of death, hence my reply above, that Jesus abolished death.  Therefore "contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of our Lord", no one is spiritually dead.  Explains why everyone is capable of doing spiritual acts like believing, repenting, etc., because we all are, through Him, spiritually alive.

To say that a person had to believe first BEFORE he can be made spiritually alive, is to me, putting the cart before the horse, because it is saying that while spiritually dead, a person can do spiritual acts.  It is sort of taking some credit from Christ and transfer the credit to man who unless first puts in his share could not have been made spiritually alive.

 

Once again Samie,  believing is NOT a "work". 

When the Spirit of Christ touches the heart of a person, God is giving "life" to that person.  "The Spirit is life."  God is enabling that person to respond.  ( So - God gets 100% of the credit.)  That person WAS DEAD, but now is raised to life - because of the action of the Spirit upon his heart, AND when he does respond, God can further "come in to him".  He is "born again" - of the spirit. That response is called BELIEVING.  It is totally a "gift" of God, and enabled by God.  The human could not generate that response - by himself. 

A person can resist the Spirit.  God has allowed humans that ability.  It's called "free will".  If a person resists the action of the Spirit upon his heart, that person REMAINS DEAD - spiritually, and REMAINS bound for eternal death.  In other words, he REMAINS under "the curse".  He remains "doomed to destruction". 

Faith is a "gift" of God - yes.  But the gift CAN BE REFUSED.

Again, and again, and again here, we have said that it takes TWO to form a relationship.  It is the relationship that saves.  One CANNOT be saved without responding to God.  Everything that Christ and the Father have done, (for a person) would do no good at all for eternal life - without the response of that human being. 

AS all-powerful as our God is, it is totally amazing that HE allows individuals to "resist" Him, and "refuse" Him.  Totally amazing!!!

Anyone - without the Spirit of Christ - IS "spiritually dead" !!!   He is "under the curse" and "doomed to destruction" because of sin within.  It is as if he has a terminal disease.   If he refuses the only "cure", then he will remain "spiritually dead" and will END UP literally and eternally DEAD. 

[8thdaypriest]

 

Sorry for my asking, but were you a Calvinist before?  Defenders of Calvinism when presented with "for God do loved the world" would say, "for God so loved the world of the elect". I'm sad for the comparison but it looks like you're in the same boat with Calvinists in this issue. Reading "forgiven us all our sins" you would have it read "forgiven us believers all our sins".

Here's my response to Pnatt in the other thread concerning our discussion with Col 2:13:

I am NOT a universalist.  I do NOT believe that God saved (past tense) everyone, or that He will save (future tense) everyone. 

God "predestined" every human being to salvation.  He desires that everyone be saved.  BUT - He also has allowed "free will" - which includes the power to refuse. 

[Samie]

Once again Samie,  believing is NOT a "work". 

Believing is exercising faith, Yes? 

"Exercise" not work?

"Believing" not work of faith?

[8thdaypriest]

Samie posted:

Pnatt;

I admire your jumping in to my discussion with Rachel that stemmed from Col 2:13 that says all our sins were forgiven on the cross. 

I believe all sins of all people for all times including those yet to be born were all forgiven through the death of the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world.  Rachel believes otherwise, reasoning that Col 2:13 is not to be generally applied since it was written for the Colossians, not to everyone.  Since forgiveness stems from the gospel, I countered that Paul was not merely referring to the Colossians as far as the Gospel is concerned citing Col 1:5,6.  Then you jumped in with your CONTEXT, and all else is history.

I have explained my position that when the Gospel is the issue, anything in the Bible, even if written to a specific person or to a group of persons, MUST be generally applied. That's my position because Christ and Him Crucified died for us all.  In this regard, what I need is not a course and diploma on CONTEXT, but a simple, Bible-based explanation why this specific position of mine is wrong.  Can you do that, please?

Rachel responds:

I've done that Samie.  You just do not accept my explanations, so you continue to say that I have not given one. 

So you will continue to state your beliefs, and deny mine - and I will do the same concerning yours - over and over, and over, and over, and over, and over.  Which is why most folks have tuned out of this discussion, and those in other threads with the same theme.  It is the reason why I will not discuss your positions in the threads of other people, (other than yours and mine) and I really wish you would take THIS discussion over into your own thread on the Book of Life.  That's where it belongs.  NOT in this one. 

The REASON why I continue to discuss, is because I believe we should be prepared to "give an answer" for our beliefs and positions.  Our preparation doesn't mean that our arguments will universally be accepted, BUT they may be accepted by a few.  And those are important. 

[Samie]

Once again Samie,  believing is NOT a "work". 

When the Spirit of Christ touches the heart of a person, God is giving "life" to that person.  "The Spirit is life."  God is enabling that person to respond.  ( So - God gets 100% of the credit.)  That person WAS DEAD, but now is raised to life - because of the action of the Spirit upon his heart, AND when he does respond, God can further "come in to him".  He is "born again" - of the spirit. That response is called BELIEVING.  It is totally a "gift" of God, and enabled by God.  The human could not generate that response - by himself. 

Granting, I am the unbeliever, so I am spiritually dead. The Spirit touches my heart, and I became spiritually alive.

You continued:

A person can resist the Spirit.  God has allowed humans that ability.  It's called "free will".  If a person resists the action of the Spirit upon his heart, that person REMAINS DEAD - spiritually, and REMAINS bound for eternal death.  In other words, he REMAINS under "the curse".  He remains "doomed to destruction". 

Before my resisting, I am spiritually alive. But if I resist, I remain dead.

Alive but remain dead?  I was resisting while dead?

Sorry, for using your favorite phrase, but seems like your position "does not make sense".

[Samie]

I don't deny free will. That's why I frequently refer to overcoming evil with good.  God through Christ, has EMPOWERED us all.  Attached to Him Who is our Strength, we have His Power to overcome evil with good.  We can choose NOT to overcome, and be blotted out from the Book of Life.  Simple, and Biblical too.