Without a Mediator

[8thdaypriest]

Believing is exercising faith, Yes? 

"Exercise" not work?

"Believing" not work of faith?

Romans 9:32 Why not? Because they did not strive for it on the basis of faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, (NRS)

HERE - "faith" is contrasted with "works".  Earning it - vs - believing it. 

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law;"

NOT works - but faith - justifies.  Justified "by faith" is the same as saying justified by "believing". 

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (NRS)

The point is that a man CAN RESIST.  If He does NOT resist, then He will be "drawn to God".  If he resists, he will be lost. 

Resisting takes WORK - not "believing". 

[8thdaypriest]

Granting, I am the unbeliever, so I am spiritually dead. The Spirit touches my heart, and I became spiritually alive.

You continued:

Before my resisting, I am spiritually alive. But if I resist, I remain dead.

Alive but remain dead?  I was resisting while dead?

Sorry, for using your favorite phrase, but seems like your position "does not make sense".

Humans CAN believe and receive the infilling of the Spirit, only to "fall away" later.  (No once-saved-always-saved) 

If the person is convicted about something that he does not want to give up (even by the power of God in Him) he will then begin to resist the conviction of the Spirit. 

So he can be spiritually "alive" and then "fall away" and become DEAD thru resisting.  it's possible. 

[8thdaypriest]

I don't deny free will. That's why I frequently refer to overcoming evil with good.  God through Christ, has EMPOWERED us all.  Attached to Him Who is our Strength, we have His Power to overcome evil with good.  We can choose NOT to overcome, and be blotted out from the Book of Life.  Simple, and Biblical too.

But Samie,

You say that every sin, that would ever be committed, by anyone WAS FORGIVEN before the world was created, because of the promise of Christ. 

Choosing "NOT to overcome evil" is CHOOSING to continue in sin. 

You're saying that this WAS FORGIVEN - but then WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN.  How can it be BOTH?

[8thdaypriest]

Gotta go.  I'm baking bread this afternoon. 

[Martn]

I am puzzled by your interpretation of Rev 22:2.

On earth, after it is made new, there will still be a "healing of the Gentiles" according to the Revelator.

Eventually that too will pass, until at last only one People and one God remain. On earth as in heaven.

[Samie]

But Samie,

You say that every sin, that would ever be committed, by anyone WAS FORGIVEN before the world was created, because of the promise of Christ. 

Choosing "NOT to overcome evil" is CHOOSING to continue in sin. 

All sins forgiven, Yes, including the sin of not overcoming evil.

You're saying that this WAS FORGIVEN - but then WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN.

No.  Because Jesus has died, once forgiven Always forgiven.  But the sin of NOT overcoming evil with good is the ONLY reason given in Scriptures why a name gets blotted out from the Book of Life.

[8thdaypriest]

All sins forgiven, Yes, including the sin of not overcoming evil.

No.  Because Jesus has died, once forgiven Always forgiven.  But the sin of NOT overcoming evil with good is the ONLY reason given in Scriptures why a name gets blotted out from the Book of Life.

 

Edited September 2, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

 Pleeeeeze take your arguments on this topic (of just when human beings are/were "saved" or "forgiven")  over to your thread on the Book of Life.  I will not answer your posts on that topic - in this thread. 

This thread is about the SDA doctrine of the "close of probation" - that it will come some time BEFORE the Second Coming, and after it arrives, Christ will stop any ministry of forgiveness.  Any sins committed after probation closes - even by the LORD's own committed people - will NOT BE forgiven.  The question:  Will there be such a time? 

Since Jackson seems to have left this thread, I'm not sure anyone will continue with this, but that's OK. 

There have been  3 or 4 threads going at the same time - all with Samie's arguments for his belief that "all sin, of every person, for all time WAS forgiven" before the foundation of the world.  THIS IS CONFUSING.  People responding, can't remember where they posted their comments, because there are too many threads going on with the SAME subject matter.  The constant insertion of Samie's arguments into so many threads, which started out on different subjects - clogs the other threads, and prevents easy discussion.  Folks try to ignore Samie's posts, and just follow the main conversation, but it gets difficult.  And for newcomers - I think it confuses them.  

When I see this going on - I'm going to simply reply, "OFF TOPIC".   

[A Christian Brother]

On earth, after it is made new, there will still be a "healing of the Gentiles" according to the Revelator.

Eventually that too will pass, until at last only one People and one God remain. On earth as in heaven.

Let's examine Revelation 22:

"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. ² In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. ³ And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. ⁴ They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. ⁵ There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.^"

Brother, I do not see any reference to your second sentence above. Please provide me chapter and verse, or state if this is an opinion of yours. Thanks!

[JoeMo]

Christian Bro,

Are you implying that the "healing of the nations" may never be complete?  That sounds more like palliative treatment than a cure.  When Jesus healed people here on earth, their healing was complete - it didn't go on forever.  Why would it go on forever in the Kingdom?

[A Christian Brother]

JoeMo:

 

I am asking for Biblical clarification on something MCBGM previously posted to me. He needs to provide scriptural references.

 

 

 

 

 

[Samie]

No, rachel, I haven't left the thread, but once a Bible verse is shown to require repentance before forgiveness ( 1 John 1:9 or Isa 55:7)and the other party continues to believe in universal forgiveness, then there can be no further meaningful discussion .

Do you weave a doctrine around one or two verses?  How about more than a dozen verses that say it was the Blood of Christ that cleansed us from ALL sin and that it was done on the cross?  Is that not universal forgiveness, brother? If not all sins were forgiven on the cross, what sins were forgiven there?  What happens to you when you commit sin now? Separated from God again because of sin? 

I'll start a new thread entitled "Separated from God again?", in respect to Rachel's wish not to clutter this thread with other issues.  Post your reasoning there if you are sure your position is Biblically sound.  If you don't, then I think you are simply bluffing in wishing for a meaningful discussion.

[8thdaypriest]

Jackson,

I believe that "probation will close" at the DAY of Atonement, which I believe will be the DAY of the Second Coming. 

The redeemed will be standing on the "sea of glass" before the Father's throne, as the 7 wrath plagues are poured out on the earth, rendering everything DEAD on the earth. 

After some period of "cool down" for the earth, perhaps the redeemed will return to the earth to rebuild and repair, in preparation FOR the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" at the 8th millennium. 

Perhaps the redeemed will spend the ENTIRE 7th millennium, in Heaven - the "true tabernalce".  This is my preferred scenario, BECAUSE those to be consecrated as priests (anciently - in the TYPE)  were to stay within the Tabernacle UNTIL "the 8th day".   The "8th day" would be the 8th millennium.  "With the LORD a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years." 

[8thdaypriest]

Do you weave a doctrine around one or two verses?  How about more than a dozen verses that say it was the Blood of Christ that cleansed us from ALL sin and that it was done on the cross?  Is that not universal forgiveness, brother? If not all sins were forgiven on the cross, what sins were forgiven there?  What happens to you when you commit sin now? Separated from God again because of sin? 

I'll start a new thread entitled "Separated from God again?", in respect to Rachel's wish not to clutter this thread with other issues.  Post your reasoning there if you are sure your position is Biblically sound.  If you don't, then I think you are simply bluffing in wishing for a meaningful discussion.

Thanks Samie.

Edited September 3, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[Samie]

Thanks Samie.

You are welcome, Rachel.

[phkrause]

This gives some answer as to "Without a Mediator" just might mean!!

 

"Behold The Bride Groom Cometh" by Maurice Berry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvYzHhBdeaU

 

Its just over 45 min. Not to long by any means and has quite a lot of information. This pastors info is very good!

 

 

[Wingnut]

I do not disagree with you Jackson.  I agree, that "known sin" must be confessed and forsaken. 

What I'm saying is that we all have sinful (not completely selfless) thoughts and actions, that we are not completely AWARE OF.  And that means we are not "perfect".  That "unconscious" sin is "covered" by the blood of Jesus.  The "babes in Christ" probably have even more things that Jesus has not yet completely cleansed from their characters.  

You think I'm saying that everyone can relax and forget about their behavior.  I'm NOT!!!  

I can no more be "perfect" than Peter could walk on water.  The harder I "strive" - in my own strength.  The faster I sink.  It is in drawing near to Christ, reading the stories of victory, building faith - THAT is what brings victory.     

 

Well said.

I don't think anyone on earth is aware of all their sins (including smugness, omission etc.)  If forgiveness and salvation depend on us confessing every sin, then there is not enough time to do this and we are all toast.

What the Bible does differentiate between are wilful and unwilful sins.

Leviticus 5:18 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context

And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him

[8thdaypriest]

Well said.

I don't think anyone on earth is aware of all their sins (including smugness, omission etc.)  If forgiveness and salvation depend on us confessing every sin, then there is not enough time to do this and we are all toast.

What the Bible does differentiate between are wilful and unwilful sins.

Leviticus 5:18 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context

And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him

The Bible actually speaks of THREE types of sin.

1.  unknown (sins of ignorance) are to be confessed and forsaken WHEN they become known to us.  Until then, they are covered by the blood of Jesus.

2.  miss the mark type sins:  You "knew" it was wrong to loose your temper, or gossip about your sister in Christ, or pig out on junk food, or keep your neighbor's sheep that wandered into your pasture, etc.  For this the Israelite was to bring a "sin offering" along with a whole burnt offering (to renew covenant) along with a drink offering, and a meal offering.  And he had to reimburse the owner of the sheep, 5 fold. 

3.  sin with attitude:  You knew, and you just didn't care.  For this you had to wait until the Day of Atonement, and then IF the LORD saw that you were truly repentant and humble in heart, then He would receive you back.  David's sin of kidnap, rape and murder, comes to mind.  No wonder David spent a week on his face, pleading with God. 

[Wingnut]

The Bible actually speaks of THREE types of sin.

1.  unknown (sins of ignorance) are to be confessed and forsaken WHEN they become known to us.  Until then, they are covered by the blood of Jesus.

2.  miss the mark type sins:  You "knew" it was wrong to loose your temper, or gossip about your sister in Christ, or pig out on junk food, or keep your neighbor's sheep that wandered into your pasture, etc.  For this the Israelite was to bring a "sin offering" along with a whole burnt offering (to renew covenant) along with a drink offering, and a meal offering.  And he had to reimburse the owner of the sheep, 5 fold. 

3.  sin with attitude:  You knew, and you just didn't care.  For this you had to wait until the Day of Atonement, and then IF the LORD saw that you were truly repentant and humble in heart, then He would receive you back.  David's sin of kidnap, rape and murder, comes to mind.  No wonder David spent a week on his face, pleading with God. 

The types of sin under the Old Covenant sounds a fascinating topic which I plead ignorance of and thank you for informing me.  But reading the New Testament, it just seems so much simpler.  When we pray we simply say "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us".  I don't in the Lord's prayer see Him breaking it down further.  I personally confess what I feel guilty of, assuming my uneducated conscience has missed a whole lot more.  But I have never felt it mattered because Christ forgives all sin - no strings attached, not even a need for listing them.  Am I wrong?

[8thdaypriest]

The types of sin under the Old Covenant sounds a fascinating topic which I plead ignorance of and thank you for informing me.  But reading the New Testament, it just seems so much simpler.  When we pray we simply say "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us".  I don't in the Lord's prayer see Him breaking it down further.  I personally confess what I feel guilty of, assuming my uneducated conscience has missed a whole lot more.  But I have never felt it mattered because Christ forgives all sin - no strings attached, not even a need for listing them.  Am I wrong?

I think, where the different types of sin matter, is in the understanding of what God will do with those folks.  The "sins of ignorance" mainly apply to those folks who ARE ignorant - of Yahweh and of Christ Jesus.  Their sins are covered by the blood of Christ, and not counted against them. 

The folks who have rejected God, and do not CARE what God wants.  Those are the folks who will be lost. 

Most of us are in the middle group.

I have said since 2011 that "the rest of the dead" will be all of those who lived and died in ignorance.  I believe they must be resurrected, taught the things of God, and then allowed to CHOOSE whom they will serve.  I wrote a book about it, titled "The 8th Day".

[8thdaypriest]

I think, where the different types of sin matter, is in the understanding of what God will do with those folks.  The "sins of ignorance" mainly apply to those folks who ARE ignorant - of Yahweh and of Christ Jesus.  Their sins are covered by the blood of Christ, and not counted against them. 

The folks who have rejected God, and do not CARE what God wants.  Those are the folks who will be lost. 

Most of us are in the middle group.

I have said since 2011 that "the rest of the dead" will be all of those who lived and died in ignorance.  I believe they must be resurrected, taught the things of God, and then allowed to CHOOSE whom they will serve.  I wrote a book about it, titled "The 8th Day".

Samie believes that all humans begin life in a "saved" or "justified" condition before God.  That being the case - in his scenario - when one comes to knowledge of God (is no longer ignorant) THEN one must do something, or fail to do something, in order to get "unsaved" (to be lost).  He/she must fail to overcome evil with good.  (This makes salvation - for most - about works.) 

In Samie's scenario, millions of unreached pagans will be resurrected, given eternal life, and then be transported into the Eternal Kingdom of Messiah - all WITHOUT their consent or co-operation.  All of this BECAUSE their sins were ones of ignorance, which were "forgiven" because of Christ's death. 

Once the missionaries REACH uninformed pagans, and teach them about God and Christ, THEN those pagans must "overcome evil" in order to REMAIN "saved". 

One wonders WHY Jesus ever told His followers to "go ye therefore and TEACH all nations".  The uninformed had a better chance of remaining "saved" if the missionaries never reached them. 

One also wonders just what manipulation (of their minds) will be necessary to ensure these pagans continue to live in co-operation with the spirit of the Kingdom. 

I disagree with Samie's scenario COMPLETELY. 

 

THEN there's the SDA scenario.  The uninformed will simply be "left dead like the beasts".  They won't come up in any resurrection.  Mrs White once said this about a slave.  (And we think abortionists are cruel.)  They would have God leaving millions of his created children - like dead animals. 

The SDAs make an exception for young children, because they have not technically "sinned", therefore they will be resurrected to eternal life in the Kingdom.  

I have a problem with the FREE PASS for children too.  These little children may not have "sinned", but they have not "believed" or CHOSEN to serve and worship the LORD either.  When they are transported directly to the Kingdom of God, some manipulation will be necessary to ensure they stay with the program, as they grow up. 

In the SDA scenario, the wicked from the first 6000 years are resurrected at the 8th millennium, allowed to live ("in the four corners of the earth"), then Satan is turned loose to deceive then AGAIN, into attacking Jerusalem, - so that God can destroy them by fire, in a defensive move.  It's like God needs an excuse to destroy them, so He allows Satan to deceive them into attaching.  That way God can say He was just defending His City. 

Daniel 12:1-3 says "multitudes of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake.  Some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."  SDAs make the ones raised to "shame and everlasting contempt" into a tiny number of those who directly crucified Christ.  I don't think that FITS the description here.  And if ALL of the terminally rebellious are raised at the SC, then WHAT IS THE POINT of raising them AGAIN, to judge them AGAIN, and execute them AGAIN, 1000 years later?  This scenario makes God our Father into a being who's wrath is not appeased by just one execution. 

 

Then there is my scenario:  I believe that every citizen of God's Eternal Kingdom, will have CHOSEN to serve God and His Son.  Obviously they would have to BELIEVE in Him first.  

Every person who lived and died in ignorance of the true God, (for whatever reason) will be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  They will be grow up, if they were resurrected as young children.  They will be educated and governed by the "priests of God and Christ" (the redeemed from the SC resurrection, who will "rule the nations"), and they will then CHOOSE TO SERVE Christ, or they will REBEL with the army of Gog/Magog. 

Satan is "turned loose" BECAUSE the battle for souls is NOT FINISHED.  Satan demands the right to tempt/test those who have NOT YET decided either FOR Christ, or AGAINST Him.

Those settled in rebellion, from the first 6000 years, will be resurrected at the SC, judged, and left to die in the 7 last plagues.  They will NOT be resurrected again - ever.  There would be no point.  They have already been judged, and have died painfully. 

Finally - the Great White Throne Judgment:  There will be a review of all the evidence concerning those who are (at that point) DEAD.  This would be all of the rebellious dead from the SC, AND all of those who died at Gog/Magog.   (This review is for the benefit of the redeemed, to answer any remaining questions.)  When the review is complete, God will destroy - in the "lake of fire" - His own retained "memory" of those people.  His "memory" is like a download from their minds, that He could use to resurrect them (think memory stick).   The point being, that the judgment will determine they should never live again.  The lost will be DEAD when what God has retained of them, is destroyed in the "lake of fire".  The same cannot be said for the Devil and his angels. 

So those are the scenarios being discussed between Samie and me, and various SDAs.  There have been several threads on different aspects of the arguments, but I summarized for you.  You can also go to my website, and read through my book titled "The 8th Day". 

Blessings,  Rachel Cory,  prophecyviewpoint.com

 

 

[Samie]

Samie believes that all humans begin life in a "saved" or "justified" condition before God.

That's what Scriptures say, I guess:

^NKJ 2 Timothy 1:9-10   ⁹ [God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,  ¹⁰ but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

^NKJEphesians 1:3-5   ³ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  ⁴ just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,  ⁵ having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

And this is evidenced by our names in the Book of Life.  But I remember you take the above Scriptures as applicable only for the Ephesians, Paul & Timothy.

That being the case - in his scenario - when one comes to knowledge of God (is no longer ignorant) THEN one must do something, or fail to do something, in order to get "unsaved" (to be lost).  He/she must fail to overcome evil with good.  (This makes salvation - for most - about works.)

No. You are either misrepresenting my position or does not thoroughly understand it. You know that I believe people are born in the "saved" condition, and to be born in the "saved" condition is surely not by works, is it?  It is the idea that in order to be saved one must first ENTER a covenant relationship with God that is by works, because UNLESS one ENTERS he cannot be saved.  I hope you are seeing this. 

Scriptures tell us that if man refuses to overcome evil with good, his name will be deleted from the Book of Life when He dies and Christ said that He will reward every man according to what each has done.  Is that salvation by works? 

In Samie's scenario, millions of unreached pagans will be resurrected, given eternal life, and then be transported into the Eternal Kingdom of Messiah - all WITHOUT their consent or co-operation.  All of this BECAUSE their sins were ones of ignorance, which were "forgiven" because of Christ's death. 

Once the missionaries REACH uninformed pagans, and teach them about God and Christ, THEN those pagans must "overcome evil" in order to REMAIN "saved". 

^{Again you are missing my point. It is NOT without consent on their part. Here's Scriptures:}

Romans 2:14-15   ¹⁴ for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,  ¹⁵ who show the work of the law written in their hearts

These whom you call pagans have consented to the law written in their hearts, they were able to overcome evil with good. And many other pagans too will be deleted from the Book of Life. Same case like us, Christians, because God does not show partiality.

One wonders WHY Jesus ever told His followers to "go ye therefore and TEACH all nations".  The uninformed had a better chance of remaining "saved" if the missionaries never reached them. 

Again a misrepresentation of my position. Remember the Ethiopian eunuch? I believe the eunuch is already Godly before he met Philip. Imagine traveling more than 1500 miles from Ethiopia to Jerusalem just to worship the true God! Among those who had no personal knowledge about Christ are people like the eunuch.  But if and when they have outgrown their responsibilities having grown up into a higher level of spiritual maturity, they will be presented with a new responsibility. And I believe the eunuch has grown into a higher level of spiritual maturity and so the Spirit directed Philip to the eunuch to teach him his new responsibility - to know Christ and Him Crucified.

One also wonders just what manipulation (of their minds) will be necessary to ensure these pagans continue to live in co-operation with the spirit of the Kingdom. 

There's no manipulation; Scriptures say there's  law written in their hearts.  What you call manipulation is God's grace. Christ has already attached us to His Body on the cross. We are part of His Body and therefore heaven-bound UNLESS deleted from the Book of Life at death for not overcoming evil with good while alive.

I disagree with Samie's scenario COMPLETELY. 

I'm sorry for that. I have shown Scriptures that back up my position. It would appear that you are not only disagreeing with me; you are disagreeing with Scriptures.