Without a Mediator

[JoeMo]

This was to show that the services of the earthly Sanctuary were forever finished, and that God would no more meet with them in their earthly temple, to accept their sacrifices. The blood of Jesus was then shed, which was to be ministered by himself in the heavenly Sanctuary. As the priests in the earthly Sanctuary entered the Most Holy once a year to cleanse the Sanctuary, Jesus entered the Most Holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Dan, viii, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by his mediation, and to cleanse the Sanctuary. {1SG 161.1}

 

I can't effectively argue your premise about the Services of the earthly sanctuary  being finished; but I don't think that means that the feast days themselves were finished.  There are simply too many instances of significant spiritual, geo-political, and economic events that happen on or very close to Jewish feasts (both annual and cyclical) for them to be strictly coincidental.  Feast days have meaning.  The "cleansing" (literally, the restoration to its proper function) of the sanctuary will take place in a literal sense on the antitypical Day of Atonement when Christ Himself restores the Temple worship - with or without sacrifices - His choice.

Edited July 11, 2015 by JoeMo

[LifeHiscost]

Doing a quick search, I seem to be unable to find this in any of EGWs writings.  Please provide us with a source so that people do not confuse the actual author with someone else.

 

http://www.formypeople.org/En/34_repent_as_i_am_coming.shtml

Somewhere in the middle of the web page.

I've found another web page coming from another SDA source who has come out with another modern translation of the New Testament, among other links, that reveals more pressing present truth  that just verifies to me how much closer we are to the end of this earth's history as we know it. And so far as I've seen there is no question of its' ability to fasten one's hope in the gospel message we each need to be revealing.

http://comeandreason.com/index.php/about1/statement-of-faith

Enjoy! Shabbat shalom

God is Love!   Jesus saves! 

 

[Art]

This is an interesting topic. I spent many hours thinking about this topic and have produced a short study on this that some may find a blessing. Take a look and let me know what you think. ...Art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hmr--ZYLgA 

[8thdaypriest]

This is an interesting topic. I spent many hours thinking about this topic and have produced a short study on this that some may find a blessing. Take a look and let me know what you think. ...Art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hmr--ZYLgA 

Very nice graphics.  Standard SDA interpretation. 

[Naomi]

Well done!!

[phkrause]

Standard SDA interpretation. 

Nothing wrong with that!!!!

[Kevin H]

Rachel has raised important questions.  SDAs are divided on the answer to her questions.  Generally SDAs fit into the following positions:

1)  Ellen White was correct and means exactly what she said--There will be a time when people will stand without a mediator.  At that time one had better be one of the redeemed.

2) Ellen White was correct, but  has been misunderstood by many.  As long as Satan is active, it would be impossible for a human to live without the power of God/Christ giving them that life.  Therefore, it could not be correct to say that one could live without a mediator in the commonly understood sense.

3) Ellen  White was simply wrong.  She did not understand what she was saying.  Humans cannot live without the indwelling power of God/Christ.

 

I would like to add a "2a" to this above list. While at Atlantic Union College this was basically taught, it was not until I was at Andrews and walked into a Sabbath School class taught by Dr. Deteren (spelling) that this really clicked.

Dr. D lecture included that the Roman Catholic understanding of mediation is that man reaches out to his priest, who reaches out to the saints, who reaches out to Mary, who reaches out to Jesus, who reaches out to the Father for us. When Protestants came they had this structure and what they did was remove the middle men, and had us reach out to Jesus who reaches out to the Father.

However in the Bible (such as in Exodus 19:5 and in Revelation) we find that Biblical mediation runs in the opposite direction from Catholic/Protestant mediation. God reaches out to us through Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit through the angels and the Bible to God's people who are to reach out to the world around us.

After hearing Dr. D. and talking this over with Graham Maxwell who agrees, there is another understanding of standing without a mediator. God has been reaching out to us. After the close of probation God's relationship with us changes. He no longer has to plead with us to accept him. Those who have accepted him are firm in our relationship. Those who have not never will.

Yes we still come to the Father through Christ, but that means we come to the power of God through our friendship with him. Mediation is trying to call us into this relationship. Mediation is no longer needed. Both Elder D. and Graham Maxwell said (and I believe this is consistent with what I learned in college) is that we tend to read into this quote the traditional Catholic/Protestant version and direction of mediation, rather than the Biblical version and direction.

[Kevin H]

Oh, another aspect to include with the above is understanding God's wrath. We tend to see God as a spanking father who's wrath punishes us. God's wrath is towards sin, limiting it's effects on us. Saying to the waves of chaos "Thus far and no further!" God's wrath is a merciful thing keeping the results of sin at bay, like waves coming on a beach.

God's punishments fit the crime. At the end of the world when people have chosen Satan as their leader, the punishment is allowing Satan to be our leader. The 7 bowels of God's wrath that we have been able to drink to keep sin at bay are poured out into the ground, no longer there to keep sin at bay.

Mediation is God keeping sin at bay while he pleads for us to come to him. Once every decision is done, and God's mercy/wrath has been permanently rejected, he will not force it on us but pours his perfect wrath (the 7 bowels) into the ground and sadly allows us to reap the results.

Thus standing before God without a mediator means that God trusts that we are his friends and that he no longer has to try to win us over to him, and that his wrath will no longer say to the waves of chaos "thus far and no further" but a tsunami of evil will flood the world and yes we will suffer but to expect this and know that God will come just as we are about to destroy ourselves.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Kevin H

[pnattmbtc]

After hearing Dr. D. and talking this over with Graham Maxwell who agrees, there is another understanding of standing without a mediator. 

I'm glad you mentioned this.  I hadn't thought of this for quite a while, but I recall Maxwell's fondness for John 15 I think it is: "I say not I will pray the Father for you, because the Father Himself loves you."  No need for mediation (in this sense) because the Father is just as (great, nice, loving, merciful ...) as Jesus.

[pnattmbtc]

Oh, another aspect to include with the above is understanding God's wrath. We tend to see God as a spanking father who's wrath punishes us. God's wrath is towards sin, limiting it's effects on us. Saying to the waves of chaos "Thus far and no further!" God's wrath is a merciful thing keeping the results of sin at bay, like waves coming on a beach.

God's punishments fit the crime. At the end of the world when people have chosen Satan as their leader, the punishment is allowing Satan to be our leader. The 7 bowels of God's wrath that we have been able to drink to keep sin at bay are poured out into the ground, no longer there to keep sin at bay.

Mediation is God keeping sin at bay while he pleads for us to come to him. Once every decision is done, and God's mercy/wrath has been permanently rejected, he will not force it on us but pours his perfect wrath (the 7 bowels) into the ground and sadly allows us to reap the results.

Thus standing before God without a mediator means that God trusts that we are his friends and that he no longer has to try to win us over to him, and that his wrath will no longer say to the waves of chaos "thus far and no further" but a tsunami of evil will flood the world and yes we will suffer but to expect this and know that God will come just as we are about to destroy ourselves.

I've not seen the idea that God's wrath is towards sin, limiting its effects on us.  Could you provide some Scripture which speaks to this?

I've thought of God's wrath as His allowing the effects of what has been chosen to take place, which seems similar to what you are saying (e.g. Romans 1, God "gave them over").

[JoeMo]

I've not seen the idea that God's wrath is towards sin, limiting its effects on us.  Could you provide some Scripture which speaks to this?

I was sure I could find some scriptures to support Kevin's assertions.  To my suprise, I couldn't.Everything I found dealt with God's wrath upon the sinner.

Josh. 22:20; 2Chron. 19:10; Is. 13:9; Micah 7:9; Romans 1:18, 1Thess 2:16

There are LOTS more verses.  To be honest, my search did not yield the results I was expecting.  I SO much wanted to support Kevin on this one.

[BobRyan]

Rachel has raised important questions.  SDAs are divided on the answer to her questions.  Generally SDAs fit into the following positions:

1)  Ellen White was correct and means exactly what she said--There will be a time when people will stand without a mediator.  At that time one had better be one of the redeemed.

2) Ellen White was correct, but  has been misunderstood by many.  As long as Satan is active, it would be impossible for a human to live without the power of God/Christ giving them that life.  Therefore, it could not be correct to say that one could live without a mediator in the commonly understood sense.

3) Ellen  White was simply wrong.  She did not understand what she was saying.  Humans cannot live without the indwelling power of God/Christ.

  

option 1 is correct.

options 2 and 3 seem to skip over the details in the entire discussion. 2 assumes that 1 means "without Christ's power or the power of God".  3 assumes  that 1 means "without the indwelling power of God/Christ".

Position 1 does not say either of those things - it says no more atoning sacrifice, no more blood to cover sins, no more pleading the blood of Christ for newly committed sin... no more covering for newly confessed - newly committed sin.

Edited July 16, 2015 by BobRyan

[Gregory Matthews]

I do not have a problem with Bob holding to position # 1.  NOTE:  That does not meant that I either agree or disagree with it.  It simply means that Bob has taken a position that other SDAs hold.

 However, I strongly disagree with his description of positions # 2 & # 3.  I would not have a problem with him arguing against them.  But, as I understand his comment, he is attempting to define the positions held by others in in doing so he has erected a scarecrow image that he can tear down.  I defined them as I understand them to be and not by imposing upon them some construct that I have about the issue.

I do not have a problem with how he has defined position # 1.

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

I do not have a problem with Bob holding to position # 1.  NOTE:  That does not meant that I either agree or disagree with it.  It simply means that Bob has taken a position that other SDAs hold.

 However, I strongly disagree with his description of positions # 2 & # 3.  I would not have a problem with him arguing against them.  But, as I understand his comment, he is attempting to define the positions held by others in in doing so he has erected a scarecrow image that he can tear down.  I defined them as I understand them to be and not by imposing upon them some construct that I have about the issue.

I do not have a problem with how he has defined position # 1.

 

 

Hi Greg.  I didn't see this.  I'm not commenting on Bob's position, just how he interpreted the three points, and I understood them as he did, so perhaps there is some misunderstanding in what you were wishing to communicate.

[8thdaypriest]

I very much like the idea that Christ's "mediation" is God the Father, pleading with men - through Christ.  Jesus will END that pleading mediation, because no one else can be won.   The REASON - because the last "witness" has been silenced.  

I personally believe this will happen when the last "witness" is either dead, or imprisoned in solitary confinement- condemned to death, or hiding in fear.  The message has been silenced. 

We have only been speaking here of adults - of those who can make an informed choice concerning God and Christ.  Most of you know that I believe that children, the uninformed, and the mentally handicapped will be resurrect to continue their lives at the 8th millennium(as the rest of the dead), so that THEY can also make an informed choice. 

Many infants and children drown during the flood of Noah.  They did not REFUSE to get on the boat.   And many children will die during the Trumpet judgments, and during the 7 wrath plagues. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

When Jesus was "made to be sin" - made to be the Serpent on the pole, that DAY for Him was the Day of Atonement, and He was "the LORD's Goat". 

On that DAY, the unfallen beings of God's entire universe, saw for themselves the true character of Satan, and the BLAME for sin landed squarely on Satan's head - just as depicted in the ancient Day of Atonement ceremony.

It is most interesting that Joshua (TYPE OF Jesus) led the Israel of God across the Jordan (which rolled back as a scroll) on the 10th day of Nissan.   Nissan 10 is a 23.5 degree tilt of the earth away from the 10th day of Tishri (7th month) the Day of Atonement.    Could it be this is a prophecy??  If the earth will "reel to and fro" then Nissan 10 could also be Tishri 10, or vis a vers.

It is possible that the "saints" could be caught up to the sky (rolled back as a scroll)  on the 10th of Nissan, and then celebrate the Passover with Christ in Heaven, just as Ancient Israel kept the Passover on the plain of Jericho just after passing over Jordan. 

[8thdaypriest]

"I saw the Father rise from the throne and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down.  Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arise with him.  I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness."  Early Writings pg 55

To the "little flock" on earth who follow, by faith, Jesus movement into the MHP,  Jesus says, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom;."    EW pg 55

I can actually agree with these two quotations.

Probation closes when the High Priest enters the MHP on the Day of Atonement.  Hence - in her "vision",  "not one ray of light" passed to the careless multitude after Jesus moved to the MHP.   The early pioneers got that part right the first time.  They believed that probation had closed.  Where they got it wrong, was in the timing.  It was NOT YET the end of the 2300 evening/morning. 

I think it was Jackson, on the "Cleansing of the Sanctuary" thread, who said that the Daniel 7 Judgment is not about Jesus being given the dominion.  Mrs. White - it would seem - disagrees. 

[8thdaypriest]

Revelation 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. (NKJ)

The seven trumpets sound after the angel throws down the censer. 

The "angel" is describes as "having a golden censer".  Anciently - the only person to handle the "golden censer" was the High Priest, and he only handled the "golden censer" on the Day of Atonement.  Knowing this - it seems the "angel" which John saw, standing at the Alter of Incense, was Jesus. 

Prayers are represented as ascending in the smoke from that censer.  When Jesus throws that golden censer down "to earth" - this would symbolize what?? - the end of His intercessory ministry?

The same thing essentially was seen by Ezekiel.  See Cpt 9 and 10.  First a "mark" is put on the foreheads of the men who sign and cry over all the abominations done within the Temple.  Then comes the wrath.  But those with "the mark" are protected.   (Could this be the "first" deportation to Babylon, which included Daniel and Ezekiel?)   

Then coals from the fire among the cherubim are scattered over the city (of Jerusalem)" (10:2). 

The "glory of the LORD" moves from over the cherub, to the threshold, to the court, to the door, and finally moved East, following the captives who had gone to Babylon (the "good figs"). 

When the "man in linen" went in to the MHP, "the cloud filled the inner court" (the holy place).  When "the glory of the LORD" paused over the threshold of the Temple" "the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory".  (Ezekiel Cpt 10)  And Jerusalem is finally destroyed in the second attack by the Babylonians.

The same thing is described in Revelation 15:8.  "The temple (of heaven) was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the Temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed." 

Here are the commands concerning the Ancient Day of Atonement:

Leviticus 16:12 "Then he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from the altar before the LORD, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. 13 "And he shall put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die."  v. 17 "There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out". 

So - QUESTION:  Is Revelation 8:1-5 describing the same event as Revelation 15:8 ?  Are both describing the "end of intercession" ??   OR - is Rev 8:1-5 threatening limited destruction (the warning trumpets), and Rev 15:8 speaking of final wrath (the last plagues) ? 

Just thought I would get a few opinions from the prophecy buffs.

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

 

Many try and useuse KJV verses 9:8, 9:24, and 10:10 10:19. to show that the most holy place had already been entered in Paul's time. But Hebrews, in the original Greek, only mentions the most holy place once and that is in verse 9:3.

i love the KJV but the translators confused the different words Paul used for sanctuary and its apartments.

Hagia,  Hagion  and  Hagia hagion

Hagion- The sanctuary as a whole

Hagia- The first apartment or holy place

Hagia Hagion- The second apartment or holiest place

 KJ Bible Verses

Heb 8:2  A minister of the sanctuary,( ton hagion) and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Heb 9:1   Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.(te Hagion)

9:3   And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; (hagia haglion) 

10:19   Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest (hagion)  (wrong lytranslated, should be sanctuary) by the blood of Jesus,   

The most common phrase used in Hebrews for the sanctuary both in heaven and on earth comes from the Greek term, ta hagia, meaning "the holies," "the holy places," "the holy things." Another form of the phrase is hagia hagion ("the holy of holies"), used exclusively for "the Most Holy Place"  and only found in (Heb. 9:3).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that review Jackson. 

I agree that Jesus did NOT enter into the Daniel 7 "court" scene when He ascended to Heaven after His resurrection.  

I believe that Daniel 7:9-10 prophecy will be fulfilled at the very END of this age.  I believe that Jesus is NOW still ministering in the "first apartment" (hagion).  That is why the confessed sins of new believers can still be forgiven.   Anciently - when the high priest entered the Most Holy Place, He made atonement only FOR those who had confessed their sins and offered a sin offering PRIOR to that day.  The whole idea that Jesus is still adding names to the redeemed of Israel WHILE in the Most Holy Place, (in my opinion) does not fit the Tabernacle types.

 

[Stan]

I know lives that have been destroyed, as they went to live in the middle of nowhere, away from all temptations as they were preparing to live without a mediator. It finally broke them.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Stan

[Ron Lambert]

We need to understand that what Jesus is doing for us now is seeking to perfect OUR FAITH, so that we trust whole-heartedly in Him. We do not need to move out where no one else lives (that would waste our influence as witnesses for Him), not move to some other country (as if all we needed were a change of nationality). Here and now, where we are, we need to trust wholly in Jesus. That is how we prepare to live without a Mediator. That is the only way that we CAN live without a Mediator--having whole-hearted faith in Jesus, Who is our "Wisdom, and Righteousness, and Sanctification, and Redemption" (1 Corinthians 1:30). That said, of course it is to our advantage to move away from the corrupting, distracting influences of the big city and locate in the country, as we can.

[JoeMo]

I'll repeat what Ron said above - the most important thing we can do to prepare for the end times is to learn to trust all ro Jesus NOW while it is relatively easy to do so.  Times are coming when those who don't have an intimate relationship with God and don't place their entire trust in His redemptive grace and power to overcome may find it very difficult to hang on to Him.

This type of message is not meant to inspire fear, it is meant to inspire revival and comfort in the fact that Jesus is coming to take us home!

[Robert]

Quoting Ellen White,

"When Christ shall cease His work as mediator in man's behalf, then this time of trouble will begin. Then the case of every soul will have been decided, and there will be no atoning blood to cleanse from sin. When Jesus leaves His position as man's intercessor before God the solemn announcement is made, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Rev. 22:11). Then the restraining Spirit of God is withdrawn from the earth.--PP 201 (1890)."

Commenting on the above:

1] Christ is not mediating in the affairs of men because probation has closed.  The result will be "the time of trouble".

2] While Christ is no longer mediator He still remains our Savior.

 

 

[Gerr]

I know lives that have been destroyed, as they went to live in the middle of nowhere, away from all temptations as they were preparing to live without a mediator. It finally broke them.

It makes no sense for Jesus to give His life in our place, give us His righteousness, and then in the end leave us to stand on our own?  NOT GOOD NEWS!!!  Salvation by works!!!

[Robert]

It makes no sense for Jesus to give His life in our place, give us His righteousness, and then in the end leave us to stand on our own?  NOT GOOD NEWS!!!  Salvation by works!!!

Bingo!