Cart Before the Horse?

[Samie]

Which is in the proper order as per Scriptures?

1.       Believe first to be written in the Book of Life;

or

2.       Written first and then one can believe.

As much as possible, please provide Scriptural basis for your choice.  Take note that only those written in the Book of Life will be allowed entry into heavenly portals.

^NKJ Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

If you later learn that your choice is putting the cart before the horse, don't feel bad.  No one is exempted from making a wrong choice.  What is sad is to stay put with the wrong choice, no matter what.

[Ron Amnsn]

Could the "Book of Life" refer to a "Book of the Living" like the genealogical record book in which the Israelites/Jews recorded the names of babies when they were named?

 

[Samie]

Could the "Book of Life" refer to a "Book of the Living" like the genealogical record book in which the Israelites/Jews recorded the names of babies when they were named?

Perhaps. What is sure, I think, is that people were born with their names written there.

[phkrause]

Perhaps. What is sure, I think, is that people were born with their names written there.

Not sure I totally agree with that. I heard a sermon, can't think of the evangelists name at the moment, but he mentioned that we are written into the book of life at baptism!!

[Samie]

Not sure I totally agree with that. I heard a sermon, can't think of the evangelists name at the moment, but he mentioned that we are written into the book of life at baptism!!

And that would be salvation by works, I guess.

[Ron Amnsn]

Not sure I totally agree with that. I heard a sermon, can't think of the evangelists name at the moment, but he mentioned that we are written into the book of life at baptism!!

Does that evangelist control the entries written into the Lamb's book of life?

If what he says is true, then shouldn't we be baptizing infants rather than leaving children out of the book of life until they choose baptism?

Children weren't left out of Abraham's covenant, of which we are heirs.  Male descendants of Abraham received the sign of the covenant (circumcision) when they were eight days old-- before they had a choice whether to enter into covenant.  I haven't found where God's covenant with Abraham guaranteed eternal salvation for anyone specific.  But the patriarchs and the Israelites seemed to trust that God would take care of the afterlife. 

[phkrause]

Does that evangelist control the entries written into the Lamb's book of life?

I believe you know the answer to that!!

[phkrause]

If what he says is true, then shouldn't we be baptizing infants rather than leaving children out of the book of life until they choose baptism?

Why?? Isn't baptism a choice?? Don't we choose to be baptized into Jesus?? If we get baptized as an infant, did we actually choose this or someone else choose for us? Sorry but I'd rather choose to be baptized. And didn't Jesus get baptized, didn't he choose this for himself?? Why did he need to do this? Hadn't he been circumcised??

[pnattmbtc]

Take note that only those written in the Book of Life will be allowed entry into heavenly portals.

Why would you think our names would be written in the book of life at baptism, as opposed to the time we were converted?  Consider, for example, the theif on the cross.  Was his name written in the book of life?

[phkrause]

Why would you think our names would be written in the book of life at baptism, as opposed to the time we were converted?  Consider, for example, the theif on the cross.  Was his name written in the book of life?

That's actually a good point, when you think about it. The thief on the cross never did get baptized and obviously, at least to me, he was converted right there on the cross. Also I would imagine that the HS had been working on him!!

[Samie]

Why would you think our names would be written in the book of life at baptism, as opposed to the time we were converted?  Consider, for example, the theif on the cross.  Was his name written in the book of life?

My position has always been we were born with our names in the Book of Life; and that includes the thief on the cross. To get one's name written in the Book of Life AFTER he puts in his share (as in after he believed, after he is baptized, etc.), appears to me as salvation by works, instead of by grace.  And that would be cart before the horse.

Believing, getting baptized, repenting, etc., are all part of overcoming evil with good and comes AFTER we had been written.  Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief, getting baptized is overcoming the evil of not following Christ's example of undergoing baptism; repentance is overcoming the evil of impenitence, etc.  Being written implies we had been EMPOWERED, having been attached to the body of Christ, our Strength for overcoming evil with good. And overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5).

I guess, in the eyes of our Savior, the thief is an overcomer. Had the thief been given another chance, he will not give in to the evil of thievery again.  And for me, what the Savior said to the thief on the cross, is assurance that He will NOT blot out his name from the Book of Life.

[8thdaypriest]

This is just an aside, but I recently learned where the whole baptism by sprinkling came in. 

Jews had fled from Jerusalem, and Judea to escape the Roman defeat of the Jewish revolts.  Rome actually allowed Jews to leave, before they started the last siege.  Hundreds went to Antioch.  The population of Antioch is estimated to have been 400 to 450 thousand.  Most of the Jews (including the Christian Jews) lived in poverty.  Water was scarce.  Water sources were closely guarded.  Instead of baptizing in running water, Messianic Jews began to baptize in pools, and then finally to just pour water over the head of the one to be baptized, and then finally just to sprinkle. 

The sprinkling procedure stuck, and was incorporated into Christian ritual.  It was in a book by Dr. Jeffrey L. Seif, "To the Ends of the Earth". 

[8thdaypriest]

How many threads on this same subject does this make now Samie?  I can think of at least 5, and I'm sure there are several more. 

    John 1:12  “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:”

Kinda says that those who do not "receive Him" - "believe in His name", are NOT YET children of God.  This doesn't say that we all begin life as "children of God".  More likely as "sons of disobedience". 

    Galatians 3:26-27 and 4:6   “For you (believers at Galatia) are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

    Galatians 3:22 “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise (of eternal life) by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

    The promise of eternal life is given to “those who believe”.  It is not given to everyone.

    Acts 16:30-31 “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’  So they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” v. 33 “And immediately he and all his family were baptized.”

John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”  (He who does NOT believe, does NOT have everlasting life.) 

 

[Samie]

How many threads on this same subject does this make now Samie?  I can think of at least 5, and I'm sure there are several more. 

    John 1:12  “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:”

Kinda says that those who do not "receive Him" - "believe in His name", are NOT YET children of God.  This doesn't say that we all begin life as "children of God".  More likely as "sons of disobedience". 

    Galatians 3:26-27 and 4:6   “For you (believers at Galatia) are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

    Galatians 3:22 “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise (of eternal life) by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

    The promise of eternal life is given to “those who believe”.  It is not given to everyone.

    Acts 16:30-31 “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’  So they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” v. 33 “And immediately he and all his family were baptized.”

John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”  (He who does NOT believe, does NOT have everlasting life.) 

The Scriptures you provided are all CORRECT. It's your application of those verses that seems WRONG. Let me explain, again, for the nth time.

You teach that people are born UNSAVED.  It follows that they are spiritually DEAD, separate from Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4). Being spiritually DEAD, they are NOT capable of doing anything spiritual.  In Christ's words, "SEPARATE from me, you can do NOTHING", and obviously, NOTHING includes the act of EXERCISING faith - "BELIEVING".  One can believe because he has faith, the faith of Christ.

Faith is FRUIT of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and one can only bear fruit IF attached to Christ (John15:4, 5). So, the natural, Biblical sequence is, attached to Christ first to be spiritually alive, then bear fruit called faith, then exercise that faith - believe.

But you teach people to first believe to be attached to Christ. In other words, bear fruit first, exercise that fruit called faith, then attach to Christ.  The attaching to Christ which MUST be the first step, you place in the last step. Your position indirectly teaches that people can bear fruit while still separate from Christ Who said people can not bear fruit while separate from Him. That makes your position cart before the horse.

[8thdaypriest]

The Scriptures you provided are all CORRECT. It's your application of those verses that seems WRONG. Let me explain, again, for the nth time.

You teach that people are born UNSAVED.  It follows that they are spiritually DEAD, separate from Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4). Being spiritually DEAD, they are NOT capable of doing anything spiritual.  In Christ's words, "SEPARATE from me, you can do NOTHING", and obviously, NOTHING includes the act of EXERCISING faith - "BELIEVING".  One can believe because he has faith, the faith of Christ.

Faith is FRUIT of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and one can only bear fruit IF attached to Christ (John15:4, 5). So, the natural, Biblical sequence is, attached to Christ first to be spiritually alive, then bear fruit called faith, then exercise that faith - believe.

But you teach people to first believe to be attached to Christ. In other words, bear fruit first, exercise that fruit called faith, then attach to Christ.  The attaching to Christ which MUST be the first step, you place in the last step. Your position indirectly teaches that people can bear fruit while still separate from Christ Who said people can not bear fruit while separate from Him. That makes your position cart before the horse.

Which is the problem.  We disagree as to the interpretation.  I do understand where you're coming from Samie.  And I do agree that we MUST have the Spirit of Christ to help us, or "we can do nothing".  I just believe that Christ begins with a person, by "knocking" from the outside.   He has not yet been invited "in".   

It's like you just met a person.  You don't know him, or trust him yet.   You're just getting acquainted. 

But you're saying that we CANNOT even initially respond to the Spirit of Christ, unless we first HAVE the Spirit.  That just doesn't make sense - to me.   

I agree that God is doing the initial contact.  So all glory goes to Him.  But - because Christ has begun "knocking" or "convicting" or "pleading" DOES NOT MEAN that I am now "in Christ" - meaning that I am now a believer - OR that my name is now IN the "Book of Life".  

[Samie]

Which is the problem.  We disagree as to the interpretation.  I do understand where you're coming from Samie.  And I do agree that we MUST have the Spirit of Christ to help us, or "we can do nothing".  I just believe that Christ begins with a person, by "knocking" from the outside.   He has not yet been invited "in".   

It's like you just met a person.  You don't know him, or trust him yet.   You're just getting acquainted. 

But you're saying that we CANNOT even initially respond to the Spirit of Christ, unless we first HAVE the Spirit.  That just doesn't make sense - to me.   

It would appear that what doesn't really make sense is your teaching that while spiritually dead, people can respond.

You teach that people are born spiritually dead. So how can they even respond INITIALLY to the Spirit when they are yet dead spiritually? The fact that people can respond DISPROVES your allegation that people are born spiritually dead.

[pnattmbtc]

It would appear that what doesn't really make sense is your teaching that while spiritually dead, people can respond.

You teach that people are born spiritually dead. So how can they even respond INITIALLY to the Spirit when they are yet dead spiritually? The fact that people can respond DISPROVES your allegation that people are born spiritually dead.

The people are spiritually dead, not physically dead.  Being physically alive, people have the capacity to respond to the Spirit of God.  The Spirit convicts, the person responds, is converted, and born again.  Being born again, they are now alive physically and spiritually.  Before they are born again, they are alive physically, but not spiritually, since they haven't been born again, but born only once.

[pnattmbtc]

Another text which comes to mind is this one:

6 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:6)

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for whom?  For all who believe. 

[Samie]

The people are spiritually dead, not physically dead.  Being physically alive, people have the capacity to respond to the Spirit of God.  The Spirit convicts, the person responds, is converted, and born again.  Being born again, they are now alive physically and spiritually.  Before they are born again, they are alive physically, but not spiritually, since they haven't been born again, but born only once.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Responding to the Spirit of God is a spiritual act, only the spiritually alive are capable of doing.

Being born again, is God's work FOR man. We were born again through the resurrection of our Lord:

^NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

[Samie]

Another text which comes to mind is this one:

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for whom?  For all who believe. 

And who can believe? Those who have faith, the faith of the Son of God. And to whom did God give faith?

^ASV Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but so to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.

Those who refuse to believe refuse to overcome the evil of unbelief. They will be blotted out from the Book of Life.

[pnattmbtc]

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Responding to the Spirit of God is a spiritual act, only the spiritually alive are capable of doing.

Being born again, is God's work FOR man. We were born again through the resurrection of our Lord:

^NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

 

One is born again when one believes in Christ.  See John 3:16.

Where do you get the idea that only one who is spiritually alive can respond to the Holy Spirit?

[pnattmbtc]

Me: Another text which comes to mind is this one:

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for whom?  For all who believe. 

Samie:And who can believe? Those who have faith, the faith of the Son of God. And to whom did God give faith?

ASV Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but so to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.

Those who refuse to believe refuse to overcome the evil of unbelief. They will be blotted out from the Book of Life.

Certainly faith is a give of God, but the point of the text is that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for those who choose to believe, as opposed to being unilateral.  I agree with you that, "Those who refuse to believe refuse to overcome the evil of unbelief.".

[pnattmbtc]

Another text that comes to mind is this one:

You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39,40).

If the person were already alive, why would they need to come to Christ to obtain life? 

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, let's focus a moment on something that we agreed on.  You wrote:

Those who refuse to believe refuse to overcome the evil of unbelief.

Would you please expand on this?  How do you see that this works? 

[Samie]

One is born again when one believes in Christ.  See John 3:16.

^{Nope. Scriptures says through the resurrection of Jesus:}

^NAS John 3:16 "For God so ^aloved the world, that He ^bgave His ^1conly begotten Son, that whoever ^dbelieves in Him should not perish, but have eternal life

^NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead