Cart Before the Horse?

[Samie]

First of all, I've answered you already.  But secondly, how can you even ask a question like this?  You believe that a Scripture author can be sincere, and even inspired, yet be wrong.  If any inspired author can be wrong, what can't you be wrong?

If you can set aside verses just because you don't understand them and they're contradictory to what you understand, how can you possibly speak of things the Scriptures "EXPLICITLY" say?  You've lost any ability to do so.

Anyway, to address the question again, you must be talking about Romans 12:3.  Is this correct?  If you are going to assert the Scriptures are explicitly saying something, why can't you at least quote what you're talking about?  Or at least answer a direct question asking you if this is the verse you have in mind?

If you're talking about Romans 12:3, here's the context of Romans 12:

You see where it says, "Marks of the True Christian"?  This is because it was clear to the editor that this is what Paul had in mind.

Paul is talking to believers.  He is referring to the faith that believers had, which, yes, God gave them.

What is it you think the Scriptures are explicitly saying?  Please quote something.  Present an argument.  Do something.

Addressed before you asked. Reposting:

Paul wrote to "all who are in Rome" that God gave faith to every man. Believing is exercising faith. Without faith to exercise, one can't believe. It necessarily follows that the giving of faith PRECEDES the act of believing.  God gave faith to those who now believe, BEFORE they can start believing, or, start exercising faith.  And this answer Pnatt finds difficult to give. Why?

I guess, because that will negate his position. Since God gave faith BEFORE one can believe, this means the one given faith is not yet a believer the instant God gives him faith. And Pnatt believes only believers were given faith. Hold over belief from Calvinists, perhaps? Calvinism teaches that when Scriptures say "God so loved the world", it means "God so loved the world of the elect".  Not quite far from Pnatt's view. When Scriptures say "God gave faith to every man", Pnatt says it means "God gave faith to every man who believes".

With Pnatt's view, no one could be faulted for not believing, because he simply can't believe since God has not given him faith.

[pnattmbtc]

Addressed before you asked. Reposting:

Paul wrote to "all who are in Rome" that God gave faith to every man. Believing is exercising faith. Without faith to exercise, one can't believe. It necessarily follows that the giving of faith PRECEDES the act of believing.  God gave faith to those who now believe, BEFORE they can start believing, or, start exercising faith.  And this answer Pnatt finds difficult to give. Why?

I guess, because that will negate his position. Since God gave faith BEFORE one can believe, this means the one given faith is not yet a believer the instant God gives him faith. And Pnatt believes only believers were given faith. Hold over belief from Calvinists, perhaps? Calvinism teaches that when Scriptures say "God so loved the world", it means "God so loved the world of the elect".  Not quite far from Pnatt's view. When Scriptures say "God gave faith to every man", Pnatt says it means "God gave faith to every man who believes".

With Pnatt's view, no one could be faulted for not believing, because he simply can't believe since God has not given him faith.

Where did Paul write that God gave faith to every man?  Why do you keep asserting this without quoting Paul?  Especially when you've been asked to do so on numerous occasions?

I have to go now.  I'll respond tomorrow.

Please read what I've written about how you and I differ in regards to what faith is, and you see if you can write something taking into account *my* defintion of faith.  Or you could disagree with my definition of faith, and we could discuss that.  But trying to represent my point of view with an understanding of faith which I don't hold isn't going to get anywhere.

Thanks for your input.

[Samie]

Where did Paul write that God gave faith to every man?  Why do you keep asserting this without quoting Paul?  Especially when you've been asked to do so on numerous occasions?

I have to go now.  I'll respond tomorrow.

Please read what I've written about how you and I differ in regards to what faith is, and you see if you can write something taking into account *my* defintion of faith.  Or you could disagree with my definition of faith, and we could discuss that.  But trying to represent my point of view with an understanding of faith which I don't hold isn't going to get anywhere.

Thanks for your input.

Read Romans 12:3. You have quoted this verse yourself.

[pnattmbtc]

Read Romans 12:3. You have quoted this verse yourself.

Yes, I quoted this at length.  Paul is clearly talking to believers.  The verse says that each one of us believers should think soberly regarding himself according to the measure of faith God has given each one.  This has nothing to do with your theory whatsoever.  You're just plucking a verse out of mid-air without regard to its context, which has nothing to do with what you're talking about, and trying to construct a theory out of this and other verse where you have to do likewise.

As I pointed out, this is a very poor methodology.  There are entire books, such as John, Galatians, and Romans which are dedicated to explaining the Plan of Salvation.  Rather than plucking verses out of context one at a time, it would be better to consider at least whole paragraphs where you can get the though of the author.