Cart Before the Horse?

[pnattmbtc]

You believe that the unconverted person is NOT attached to Christ yet, while he who is converted is already attached. But you say that the unconverted (still NOT attached to Christ yet) must believe first and then he is attached (or converted). For me, that's cart before the horse, because believing is the exercise of faith which is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and only those attached to Christ can bear fruit (John 15:4,5). And I have repeated this for soooooooooooooooooo many times.

The other point is regarding this:

"  But you say that the unconverted (still NOT attached to Christ yet) must believe first and then he is attached (or converted). "

Leaving out the attached part, we have "But you say that the unconverted must believe first, and then he is converted."

Yes, I do believe this, and I'm wondering, how can an unconverted person become converted, other than by believing?

[pnattmbtc]

 

If there is one to feel exasperated, it should have been me, not you, brother. Here's why:

1. I posted the following:

 2. To my above post, you responded with a long post, but I truncated it to save space, and only showed your answer to what I asked in red above:

 

3. To your posted reply, I responded with:

 4.  To which your reply came:

 

5.  I looked up the post, and since there's none (the only verse there is in that post is the verse I quoted: Rom 8:14), I replied:

 6.  Then came your reply:

 

7.  But since there is none, I replied:

 

And then you replied I'm being a bit exasperating.  Can you see it's you who looked like being a bit exasperating? But I am not at all exasperated by the way you replied to me in this issue, brother.

I've mentioned several times now both Romans (chapter 8) and Galatians (chapter 3) as having texts which show we receive the Spirit by faith.

[pnattmbtc]

1. The Gospel is presented to the person, and the person perceives Christ knocking at the door of His heart.

2.He responds by repenting of his sin, confessing it, and inviting Christ into his heart.

3.At this point he is converted.

Do you agree with this?

Samie: I agree based on the condition that the "conversion" you speak of is conversion to Christianity. 

But if you are talking of "conversion" as being attached to Christ, then No, I don't agree, because it was Christ Himself Who attached us to His Body on the cross (see Eph 2:11-19). To say otherwise is, for me, cart before the horse.

I don't recall having said anything about being attached to Christ.  I understand conversion to mean accepting Christ as one's personal savior.  I believe this is necessary to be saved, for any person with reasoning powers.

[Samie]

I agree based on the condition that the "conversion" you speak of is conversion to Christianity. 

But if you are talking of "conversion" as being attached to Christ, then No, I don't agree, because it was Christ Himself Who attached us to His Body on the cross (see Eph 2:11-19). To say otherwise is, for me, cart before the horse.

I don't recall having said anything about being attached to Christ.  I understand conversion to mean accepting Christ as one's personal savior.  I believe this is necessary to be saved, for any person with reasoning powers.

Do you believe that the still unconverted (conversion as you understand it) is already attached to Christ, that is, part of His Body?

[pnattmbtc]

Do you believe that the still unconverted (conversion as you understand it) is already attached to Christ, that is, part of His Body?

 

I'm not sure what you have in mind by this.  Romans 8 comes to mind:

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Before the person is converted, he is in the flesh.  After converted, he is in the Spirit, and the Spirit of God dwells in him.  There is a definite distinction here.  I don't know what it would mean for a person to be attached to Christ, a part of His Body, yet, at the same time "none of his".  Is this what you are suggesting, that the person is, at the same time "attached to Christ" yes "none of his"? 

[Samie]

 

I'm not sure what you have in mind by this.  Romans 8 comes to mind:

Before the person is converted, he is in the flesh.  After converted, he is in the Spirit, and the Spirit of God dwells in him.  There is a definite distinction here.  I don't know what it would mean for a person to be attached to Christ, a part of His Body, yet, at the same time "none of his".  Is this what you are suggesting, that the person is, at the same time "attached to Christ" yes "none of his"? 

I believe to be attached to Christ is to be in Him, to be part of His Body and therefore in His Flock and not "none of his".

Again, do you believe the unconverted is already attached to Christ?

I believe Christ attached us all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants, nobody exempted nor left out -  to His Body on the cross (see Eph 2:11-19). Sadly, all whose names were blotted out from the Book of Life, were also detached from His Body, expelled from membership in the Family of God.  But the good news is, judgment to blot out names comes only after a person dies (Heb 9:27). There's hope while alive.

[8thdaypriest]

I wasn't laying emphasis on the timing of the events, as they all happen at the same time.  The Spirit convict of sin, righteousness, etc., presents the sinner Christ, the person believes, and is converted.  There could be other sins the Spirit brings to light later.  Maybe the only sin He brings to light at the beginning is the sin of unbelief.  Certainly the work wouldn't be exactly the same for every person, but the same general principles would apply; one is a sinner and has a need for Christ, Christ is received into the heart.

Regarding what conversion means, that's a good question.  I think of conversion as a change of mind, of how one looks at things.  Before being converted, Christ was an unimportant part of life; after conversion, He's everything.

The natives who were offering a human sacrifice, weren't doing it BECAUSE they were conscious of "sins".  They wanted rain, or good hunting, or some other blessing.  They thought they had to offer something to their favorite "god" in order to receive those things. 

It is only AFTER one comes to realize that there's only one God, and Jesus is God's Son, and God wants us to behave in a certain way,  - that one is "convicted" of sins.  For someone living in ignorance, there's belief - followed by conviction of sin - followed by confession with reconciliation. 

For the Jews, who were NOT IGNORANT of the existence of Yahweh, and were NOT ignorant of Yahweh's Law, the experience of "belief" (that Jesus was Messiah), would have been a different experience, from that of pagans living in darkness.  And the experience of "conviction" would also have been different.  Paul was - according to the Law - blameless in his behavior.  It was only after the Spirit of Christ convicted him concerning his "heart" - that he felt confession was needed. 

And I think that Muslims, who come to believe in Jesus as God's only Son, would have yet a different type of "conversion experience".  They come to see that the worship of Allah, is all a lie.  For them - it is a completely freeing experience!!  Islam is heavy with FEAR.  Women especially fear "hell", because Mohamed said that "hell" is mostly populated by women. 

[8thdaypriest]

I personally believe it's all about reconciliation and dominion. 

Reconciliation (on my part) determines whether I will be delivered (literally and physically) from Satan's dominion of death. 

Jesus lived a perfect human life, and died a perfect death - IN ORDER TO - regain the dominion of earth, and its environs.  He fulfilled the TERMS of the promise covenant, therefore He will receive "the land" (this earth).  

With the dominion - comes the right to judge - everyone within the dominion.  That is WHY Jesus will judge.  He will judge our "works" to determine our reward, within His dominion.  He will judge our hearts, to determine whether we have - (or have not) - been reconciled to His Father. 

[pnattmbtc]

I'm not sure what you have in mind by this.  Romans 8 comes to mind:

Before the person is converted, he is in the flesh.  After converted, he is in the Spirit, and the Spirit of God dwells in him.  There is a definite distinction here.  I don't know what it would mean for a person to be attached to Christ, a part of His Body, yet, at the same time "none of his".  Is this what you are suggesting, that the person is, at the same time "attached to Christ" yes "none of his"? 

Samie: I believe to be attached to Christ is to be in Him, to be part of His Body and therefore in His Flock and not "none of his".

Again, do you believe the unconverted is already attached to Christ?

I believe Christ attached us all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants, nobody exempted nor left out -  to His Body on the cross (see Eph 2:11-19). Sadly, all whose names were blotted out from the Book of Life, were also detached from His Body, expelled from membership in the Family of God.  But the good news is, judgment to blot out names comes only after a person dies (Heb 9:27). There's hope while alive.

But Roman 8 says that those who are of the flesh *are* "none of his".  I don't understand how you're understanding fits in with Romans 8. 

[8thdaypriest]

I believe to be attached to Christ is to be in Him, to be part of His Body and therefore in His Flock and not "none of his".

Again, do you believe the unconverted is already attached to Christ?

I believe Christ attached us all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants, nobody exempted nor left out -  to His Body on the cross (see Eph 2:11-19). Sadly, all whose names were blotted out from the Book of Life, were also detached from His Body, expelled from membership in the Family of God.  But the good news is, judgment to blot out names comes only after a person dies (Heb 9:27). There's hope while alive.

No.  I do NOT believe the unconverted are "attached to Christ".   We BECOME attached to Him, when we believe in Him, and enter into covenant with Him.  Not before. 

Even though we enter into covenant with Him, we can break that covenant without repentance, and thus separate ourselves from His redeemed Israel. 

[Samie]

But Roman 8 says that those who are of the flesh *are* "none of his".  I don't understand how you're understanding fits in with Romans 8. 

I think both our understanding fits.  It's just that your understanding is limited to Christians; mine includes everyone, for all had been attached to the Body of Christ on the cross (see Eph 2:11-19), when there was yet no one called a Christian (Acts 11:26).  Read Rom 8 again. You'll see.  That is why we are enjoined to overcome evil with good because it is mortifying evil deeds through the Spirit; it is walking after the Spirit instead of walking after the flesh, for to live after the flesh is to be in the flesh.  And those who persistently live after the flesh - those who do not overcome evil with good - will be blotted out from the Book of Life when they die.  But only God knows who.

[Samie]

No.  I do NOT believe the unconverted are "attached to Christ".  We BECOME attached to Him, when we believe in Him, and enter into covenant with Him.  Not before. 

Who did Christ attach to His Body on the cross?

[pnattmbtc]

Me:But Roman 8 says that those who are of the flesh *are* "none of his".  I don't understand how you're understanding fits in with Romans 8. 

Samie:I think both our understanding fits.  It's just that your understanding is limited to Christians; mine includes everyone, for all had been attached to the Body of Christ on the cross (see Eph 2:11-19), when there was yet no one called a Christian (Acts 11:26).  Read Rom 8 again. You'll see.  That is why we are enjoined to overcome evil with good because it is mortifying evil deeds through the Spirit; it is walking after the Spirit instead of walking after the flesh, for to live after the flesh is to be in the flesh.  And those who persistently live after the flesh - those who do not overcome evil with good - will be blotted out from the Book of Life when they die.  But only God knows who.

This isn't dealing with my question.  Paul says that if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is "none of his".  This means there are people to whom this applies.  Who are these people?  Paul himself answers this question.  I'm saying I don't see how what you are saying ties in to what Paul is saying.

I'm not saying that the "none of his" statement is limited to Christians (or, rather, non-Christians).  I'd prefer to keep the language the same as Paul's.  What does Paul say? (i.e., who does Paul say are "none of his"?  What is the characterist of such?  It's right in the same passage).

[pnattmbtc]

Here's a nice explanation of the Ephesians 2 passage:

Those who are in the flesh, far off from God, are walking in the vanity of their mind, are alienated from God and are separated from the life of God. Enemies in the mind; that is what we were. Reading again in Eph. 2:13: "But now"— When? I mean that. I mean we who are now here studying the scriptures, we are to yield ourselves to the word of God exactly as it is, that it may carry us where He may want us. Therefore I ask, When?—Now, right where we are.

"But NOW, in Jesus Christ, ye who sometime were far off." Far off from whom? Far off from God? or far off from the Jews? The previous verse says far off from God, "without God," alienated from the life of God. "Ye who sometime were far off [from God] are made nigh" to whom? To God? or to the Jews?—Nigh to God of course.

"Ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh to God by the blood of Christ. For He who is our peace, who hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us—that was between us—having abolished in his flesh the enmity." Thank the Lord. He hath "abolished the enmity" and we can be separated from the world.

"Hath broken down the middle wall of partition between"—whom? Between men and God, surely. How did He do it? How did He break down the middle wall of partition between us and God? By "abolishing the enmity." Good.

True, that enmity had worked a division and a separation between men on the earth, between circumcision and uncircumcision, between circumcision according to the flesh and uncircumcision according to the flesh. It had manifested itself in their divisions, in building up another wall between Jews and Gentiles—that is true, but if the Jews had been joined to God and had not been separated from Him, would they have ever built up a wall between them and anybody else? No, certainly not, but in their separation from God, in their fleshly minds, in the enmity that was in their minds and the blindness through unbelief which put the veil upon their heart—all this separated them from God. And then because of the laws and ceremonies which God had given them, they gave themselves credit for being the Lord’s and for being so much better than other people, that they built up a great separating wall and partition between themselves and other people. But where lay the root of the whole thing, as between them and other people even? It lay in the enmity that was in them that separated them first from God. And being separated from Him, the certain consequence was that they would be separated from others.

"For He is our peace, who hath made both one." Made both who one?—God and men, certainly. "And hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, having abolished in his flesh the enmity … for to make in himself of twain [of two] one new man, so making peace."

Let us look that over again. "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity." Now omitting the next clause (We are not studying that in this lesson.), what did He abolish that enmity for? What did He break down that middle wall of partition for? Why? "for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace." Does Christ make a new man out of a Jew and a Gentile?—No. Out of a heathen and somebody else?—No. Out of one heathen and another heathen?—No.

God makes one new man out of God and A MAN. And in Christ, God and man met so that they can be one.

All men were separated from God and in their separation from God they were separated from one another. True, Christ wants to bring all to one another; He was ushered into the world with "Peace on earth; good will to men." That is His object. But does He spend His time in trying to get these reconciled to one another and in trying to destroy all these separations between men and to get them to say, "Oh, well, let all bygones be bygones; now we will bury the hatchet; now we will start out and turn over a new leaf and we will live better from this time on"?

Christ might have done that. If He had taken that course there are thousands of people whom He could have persuaded to do that; thousands whom He could persuade to say, "Well, it is too bad that we acted that way toward one another; it is not right, and I am sorry for it. And now let us just all leave that behind and turn over a new leaf and go on and do better." He could have got people to agree to that. But could they have stuck to it?—No. For the wicked thing is there still that made the division. What caused the division?—The enmity, their separation from God caused the separation from one another. Then what in the world would have been the use of the Lord Himself trying to get men to agree to put away their differences without going to the root of the matter and getting rid of the enmity that caused the separation? Their separation from God had forced a separation among themselves. And the only way to destroy their separation from one another was of necessity to destroy their separation from God. And this He did by abolishing the enmity. And we ministers can get a lesson from this, when churches call us to try to settle difficulties. We have nothing at all to do with settling difficulties between men as such. We are to get the difficulty between God and mansettled and when that is done, all other separations will be ended. (A. T. Jones The 1895 General Conference Bulletin, Sermon NO. 11)

[Samie]

This isn't dealing with my question.  Paul says that if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is "none of his".  This means there are people to whom this applies.  Who are these people?  Paul himself answers this question.  I'm saying I don't see how what you are saying ties in to what Paul is saying.

I'm not saying that the "none of his" statement is limited to Christians (or, rather, non-Christians).  I'd prefer to keep the language the same as Paul's.  What does Paul say? (i.e., who does Paul say are "none of his"?  What is the characterist of such?  It's right in the same passage).

The people to whom "none of his" applies are those whose names are NOT in the Book of Life. And they are as the sands of the sea in number  All of us - the little flock - whose names are in the Book of Life, are surely NOT among the "none of His".

Here's a nice explanation of the Ephesians 2 passage:

I just knew that this sermon of ATJones you quoted (this is the first time I came to know and read it), ALMOST described my position, that we all - Jews and Gentiles, circumcision and uncircumcision - were all attached to the Body of Christ, thus making a New Man - Christ the Head, Humanity the Body - on the cross.

"For He is our peace, who hath made both one." Made both who one?—God and men, certainly. "And hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, having abolished in his flesh the enmity … for to make in himself of twain [of two] one new man, so making peace."

Let us look that over again. "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity." Now omitting the next clause (We are not studying that in this lesson.), what did He abolish that enmity for? What did He break down that middle wall of partition for? Why? "for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace." Does Christ make a new man out of a Jew and a Gentile?—No. Out of a heathen and somebody else?—No. Out of one heathen and another heathen?—No.

God makes one new man out of God and A MAN. And in Christ, God and man met so that they can be one.

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, here's a reference to the article:

http://www.gospel-herald.com/a_t_jones/1895gcb/95gcb11.htm

Please pay special attention to what the "enmity" is.  

[Samie]

Samie, here's a reference to the article:

http://www.gospel-herald.com/a_t_jones/1895gcb/95gcb11.htm

Please pay special attention to what the "enmity" is.  

Thanks, brother.  It was worth my time reading it.  And, I guess, Pastor Jones agrees with me. And Yes, the enmity? He had abolished it, for all of Adams' race, not just for believers. I must humbly admit, Pastor Jones was led by the Spirit to the truth I have just found more than a century later.

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks, brother.  It was worth my time reading it.  And, I guess, Pastor Jones agrees with me. And Yes, the enmity? He had abolished it, for all of Adams' race, not just for believers. I must humbly admit, Pastor Jones was led by the Spirit to the truth I have just found more than a century later.

What do you think the enmity is?

[8thdaypriest]

Who did Christ attach to His Body on the cross?

Romans 6:3 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”

This verse kinda hit me this morning.  Samie keeps saying that every human who would ever exist was somehow "in" (attached to) the body of Christ on the cross.  I've already quoted several verses that say the "body" of Christ is His church, believers who have been baptized. 

The verse says that baptism "in the name of Christ Jesus", is the MEANS by which one is included "in" "His death". 

[8thdaypriest]

 

The people to whom "none of his" applies are those whose names are NOT in the Book of Life. And they are as the sands of the sea in number  All of us - the little flock - whose names are in the Book of Life, are surely NOT among the "none of His".

 

I just knew that this sermon of ATJones you quoted (this is the first time I came to know and read it), ALMOST described my position, that we all - Jews and Gentiles, circumcision and uncircumcision - were all attached to the Body of Christ, thus making a New Man - Christ the Head, Humanity the Body - on the cross.

I think your interpretation of Ephesians Cpt 2, and the "one new man" is WAY OFF. 

Jews refused to allow BELIEVING Gentiles to become part of the community of Israel.  They were refused entry to the Court of Sacrifice.  The believing Pharisees demanded that all new converts be physically circumcised, and complete at least 2 years of training BEFORE they would be allowed to enter that court.  The "wall" which Paul refers to, was the "wall" which prevented uncircumcised men from entering the Temple Court.  THAT is the "wall" which is "broken down" in Christ.  It is the "wall" between believing Jews, and believing Gentiles. 

Paul is saying that there is ONLY ONE "household of God" and that is Israel.  DNA Jews who believed in Christ as Son of God, remained part of that "tree", and those who refused to believe were "broken off" "because of unbelief".  Gentiles who came to faith (belief) were "grafted in" - to Israel (the Olive Tree).  That's Romans Cpt 11.

Paul is writing to BELIEVERS at Ephesus.  He is NOT WRITING to every human who ever lived!! 

He says to these former "Gentiles in the flesh" (2:11), "at that time (before they believed) you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." 

BEFORE they believed and were "baptized into His death", they WERE:  1.  "without Christ"   2.  "strangers from the covenants of promise"  [That would include the Abrahamic promise.]  3. without hope  4.  "without God". 

Without God, without Christ, and without hope - of salvation!!!!!

When they believed, THEN they were "grafted in" to the Olive Tree - which represents Israel (Jeremiah 11:16).   And "all of Israel will be saved" - no one else.  (Rom Cpt 11). 

But you come along Samie, and preach that they WERE "in Christ" and WERE "in God", and WERE on track for salvation with their names already IN the Book of Life. 

I do NOT AGREE!!

[pnattmbtc]

A verse, or verses, that came to mind is this:

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:11-13. 

[LifeHiscost]

…6And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them. 7The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests  were becoming obedient to the faith......Acts 6

All who are humble suppliants of the Master are fertile soil.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

I think your interpretation of Ephesians Cpt 2, and the "one new man" is WAY OFF. 

Jews refused to allow BELIEVING Gentiles to become part of the community of Israel.  They were refused entry to the Court of Sacrifice.  The believing Pharisees demanded that all new converts be physically circumcised, and complete at least 2 years of training BEFORE they would be allowed to enter that court.  The "wall" which Paul refers to, was the "wall" which prevented uncircumcised men from entering the Temple Court.  THAT is the "wall" which is "broken down" in Christ.  It is the "wall" between believing Jews, and believing Gentiles. 

Paul is saying that there is ONLY ONE "household of God" and that is Israel.  DNA Jews who believed in Christ as Son of God, remained part of that "tree", and those who refused to believe were "broken off" "because of unbelief".  Gentiles who came to faith (belief) were "grafted in" - to Israel (the Olive Tree).  That's Romans Cpt 11.

Paul is writing to BELIEVERS at Ephesus.  He is NOT WRITING to every human who ever lived!! 

He says to these former "Gentiles in the flesh" (2:11), "at that time (before they believed) you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world." 

BEFORE they believed and were "baptized into His death", they WERE:  1.  "without Christ"   2.  "strangers from the covenants of promise"  [That would include the Abrahamic promise.]  3. without hope  4.  "without God". 

Without God, without Christ, and without hope - of salvation!!!!!

When they believed, THEN they were "grafted in" to the Olive Tree - which represents Israel (Jeremiah 11:16).   And "all of Israel will be saved" - no one else.  (Rom Cpt 11). 

But you come along Samie, and preach that they WERE "in Christ" and WERE "in God", and WERE on track for salvation with their names already IN the Book of Life. 

I do NOT AGREE!!

I understand why. But you will soon. You can't resist the Holy Spirit.  See my recent post to you in the "Reconciled to God" thread.

[pnattmbtc]

Here are a few problem texts:

1.Galatians 3:2.  This text says that we receive the Holy Spirit by faith.  This is a chicken and egg problem viz a viz the idea that we get the faith necessary to believe in Christ as fruit of the Spirit.  Also, there is a problem that the verse from which this idea came from, Gal. 5:22, the word "faith" is better translated "faithfulness" as the great majority of modern translations have.

2.2 Cor. 5:20.  This text says that we, as Christ's ambassadors, implore others to "be reconciled to God."

3.1 John 1:9.  This text says if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive them, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

4.John 1:12.  This text says that those who believe on the name of the Son of God become sons of God, and are born of God.

5.Romans 10:10.  This text says if we believe with our heart, then we will be justified.

[Samie]

Here are a few problem texts:

1.Galatians 3:2.  This text says that we receive the Holy Spirit by faith.  This is a chicken and egg problem viz a viz the idea that we get the faith necessary to believe in Christ as fruit of the Spirit.  Also, there is a problem that the verse from which this idea came from, Gal. 5:22, the word "faith" is better translated "faithfulness" as the great majority of modern translations have.

2.2 Cor. 5:20.  This text says that we, as Christ's ambassadors, implore others to "be reconciled to God."

3.1 John 1:9.  This text says if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive them, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

4.John 1:12.  This text says that those who believe on the name of the Son of God become sons of God, and are born of God.

5.Romans 10:10.  This text says if we believe with our heart, then we will be justified.

Problem texts? Well, maybe.  I sincerely believe that in the original manuscripts (sadly, none remained), no problem texts exist.  These problem texts may have cropped up due to transcription errors, which may have been unintentional or otherwise.  And you know these facts, too.  But despite these texts, when taken in its totality, Scriptures clearly show the correct view of things.  Honestly, of the 5 given texts, I only consider #3 & #4 as the problem texts.  And they are all from John.  I wouldn't be surprised if in Revelation (came later than his other writings), what these texts say are brought into their proper perspective.